BIG BLOCK alternative Motor

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BIG BLOCK alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:42 pm

This discussion actually started here: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785&start=3125#p856766

about this motor:
Image

crossbreak wrote:
bzhwindtalker wrote:If someone is searching for a big block GNG style motor, this seems to be a good solution (just received and mesured)
http://e-bike-diffusion.com/index.php?m ... _num%253D1
Has 50mm long x 80mm diameter rotor, small lams (quite rusted on mine...) big phases to boot and 120mm inner case diameter
Image

150€ shipped via air mail is not bad at all!


Awesome, it has 12magnets! What means small lams? 0.3mm? Any info about KV and no load current?

114mm is a little wide though. still doable. If it is as good as it sounds, this will be my first single speed, single reduction reardrive motor... my Shimano hub with 219 sprocket adapter is still waiting for a proper engine.


silence wrote:Image

Info from ebay.


crossbreak wrote:I read 34.7KV for this BIG Block alternative from your graph.

Max speed around 60kph, max hill climb gain of 30.6% or 17° for 40A battery and 100A phase current. This means it will output 28Nm of torque at the shaft at 100A Phase current :shock: Nice figures... I think I will go for it.

Edit: In this 4:1 geared config it should behaves like a geared hub drive with 8.7KV. So equal to a BMC V_1 (it has about the same weight and 8.4KV geared in the ebikes.ca simulator).

A BMC V1 has more magnets and more reduction, but I guess it has less copper. So this single speed config should behave the same in the simulator, except-> it will barely overheat :)

this is a graph for 72V and 40a of the BMC V1


Image

crossbreak wrote:ok now I compare BMC_v1 and this GNG big block alternative geared 4:1 @48V. Both at 270rpm ...which one is "bigger"?? Which one has more torque at this rpm?? they have about the same KV.

the big block alternative has 60Nm. The BMC_V1 has 45Nm. Seems like it is "weaker"
Image
Image



Sources:
Mr Tao:
http://www.mistertao.com/beta/pages/item/36266184609.html

e-bike-diffusion
http://e-bike-diffusion.com/index.php?module=produit&prd_id=501&url_retour=http%253A%252F%252Fe-bike-diffusion.com%253A80%252Findex.php%253Fmodule%253Dcategorie%2526code_cat%253D26%2526page_start_num%253D3
Last edited by crossbreak on Wed May 06, 2015 10:11 am, edited 4 times in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:02 pm


Specs i found + measured: (this post will be updated as soon as we got more info):
KV: 34.7 rpm/V (derived from graph
KV: 32.9 rpm/V (measured with multimeter)
Kt: 0.275 Nm/A
Inductance: 311µH @ 400Hz with 1m cable.
Magnets: 12
Laminations: 0.5mm ?
Hall sensor placement: 120°
No load Consumption: 1.20A @ 45V. 1.46A @ 80.6V (this differs for different controllers)
Winding Terminaison: Star / WYE

Weight: 5.32 kg // 11.7 lbs
Bearings: 6203 RS

Some no load cunsumption measurements i did after soldering cables to the star ends:
46.2V Delta: 134W 2589 rpm
46.3V Star: 75 W 1500 rpm
79.2V Delta: 340 W 4440 rpm (lol this sounds nice 8) )
79.7V Star 135 W 2582 rpm

Seems that this one runs fine in Delta. Both Delta and WYE consume the same no load power at ~2590rpm. The rpm are calced by KV, didn't measure

Max rpm with acceptable eddy current loss (250Hz / 0.5mm Lams): 2500rpm
It seems like this motor is perfectly suited for 72 and 96V systems in Star/WYE (Stock) or 48V in Delta (mod)

bzhwindtalker wrote:More info (will edit as I mesure)
Phase resistance______________________
4 holes BCD__________________________135mm diagonal
Extrusion width_______________________80mm
Overall width_________________________140mm
Case width___________________________110mm
Axle diameter________________________~14mm (need to find my vernier callipers)
Base feet holes center to center_________145mm
Base holes size________________________22*10mm
Base holes from side of the extrusion_____4mm
Winding Terminaison___________________???
Lamination thickness___________________0.5, really hard to tell...


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=130650
Image


Last edited by crossbreak on Mon May 26, 2014 11:01 am, edited 23 times in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby etard » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:50 pm

Cool! Thanks for starting this thread for those that aren't following the thread in which originally posted.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:11 am

Had posted something here : viewtopic.php?f=30&t=57453 but will merge :

Gathering info on those interesting (and really cheap) mass-produced rickshaw motors.

The motor used on the GNG style mid drives is derived form those motors used on manual shift multi-speed rear axles for trikes.
They are available in many lengths but diameter seems to be quite constant, even if it seems there are different pole counts.

The GNG 450w motor is capable of stupid amounts of power on 24s for its weight and price, but how those bigger units will do?

Did you guys test those motors?

What about the design? bad, average, ok? I think the main strength is the very good power dissipation of the inruner design.

Here is a "1000w" unit opened up. I plan to peak 6kw+ in this. I did 3.5kw+ on my GNG on 14S without burning it so with more than double the stator I'm confident about my plan.
Image

Got it here : http://e-bike-diffusion.com/index.php?m ... _num%253D1

Do you have better sources? I tried alibaba but no luck, they always screwed me on shipping... I paid 150€ delivered on the BHT website, via DHL.

I want to use this motor in my next Freeride bike so I need to know exactly its caracteristics. What should I mesure first?
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:14 am

I will run 10-66 reduction on my bike, on 20s as I expected the KV to be quite higher... With my small rear wheel torque should be really good at 80A battery current :twisted:
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby arcticfly » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:37 am

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:28 am

Build index:

dirty http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=54416
drum http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=58313
bzhwindtalker http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=58313
whiplash http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=46568&start=400#p838591
___________________________________________________________________
Here's where the GNG family of motors originated, and what they came on. Some of the large Chinese cities are banning gasoline 2-strokes because of the horrible smog (edit: as posted by LFP and others, this is a bad design, but I am certain it is an E-conversion kit for existing cargo trikes, and also for the new trikes at the original ICE-engine factory assembly line...until existing stock of old-style differentials are cleared out and the new electric-specific drive-trains can be phased in:

GNGbb4.png


GNGbb5.png
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:19 pm, edited 5 times in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:53 am

With 26" Wheel and 80Nm at the wheel you can bull wheelies on most bikes. At 120Nm, most bikes wheely so much you can't stand it.

With your 10T/66T reduction will give you stupid amounts of torque... top speed should be around 40km/h.
80A Battery /160-200A phase current are really.. !?!?=! :oops: :evil: :twisted:

Torque constant is Kt = 9.55/Kv, so it is 0,275Nm/A for our motor. This means @160Amps Phase -> 44Nm@motor or 290.4Nm@wheel with your 66T/10T reduction of 6.67:1.

What could you measure??
Geometric:
-length of shaft
-diameter of shaft
-length of motor housing
-diameter of motor housing
-BCD of the 4 bolts

Electric:
-KV
-Phase resistance
-Phase inductance
-no load current
-lamination thickness/count
-Hall sensor angle (60° or 120°)
-Delta or WYE/Star termination?

Other:
-weight

You may want to start with the major dimensions.. they are most interesting for the majority i think. Thanks for your info!
Last edited by crossbreak on Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:19 am

this is what i wanna build, BMX pegs instead of pedals..I'm not sure if I shall use a freewheel or not
Attachments
single speed built.jpg
single speed built.jpg (49.87 KiB) Viewed 17176 times
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:45 am

Sounds like a plan! a lot like my original GNG freerider Lapierre freerider. The main issue is chain growth but with the little reduction needed is not too bad!
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:54 am

More info (will edit as I mesure)
Phase resistance______________________0.7 Ohm (cheap multimeter)
4 holes BCD__________________________135mm diagonal
Extrusion width_______________________80mm
Overall width_________________________140mm
Case width___________________________110mm
Axle diameter________________________~14mm (need to find my vernier callipers)
Base feet holes center to center_________145mm
Base holes size________________________22*10mm
Base holes from side of the extrusion_____4mm
Winding Terminaison___________________Delta
Lamination thickness___________________0.5, really hard to tell...
Last edited by bzhwindtalker on Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:59 am

forget about the phase resistance measurement using a multimeter.. you need a current source and current meter for measuring that.

Thanks for those dimensions! I'll move them to the other specs.

yep, the LMX P1 is very similar, some good ideas I want to adopt.. I already posted this kind of tensioner in your thread. i'm not sure if the tensioner can work like that.. something i'll have to try. If chain growth is to much, i'll need 2 idlers like in a rear derailleur. but that is something i'd like to avoid.

this is a v-brake chain tensioner, nice idea IMO since the torsion spring is already built-in
http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/welcher-kettenspanner-ist-nun-wirklich-gut.313529/
Image
Last edited by crossbreak on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby silence » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:24 pm

crossbreak wrote:Delta or WYE/Star termination?


bzhwindtalker has quite detailed photo in this thread.
Seems like 4 termination points, so most likely WYE.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:26 pm

Actually I was talking about the previous bike with the BB located direct drive GNG motor and pegs!
Sorry bad photoy :
Image
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:28 pm

Some pics :
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:41 pm

I made a fast sketch (may contain many errors)

bzhwindtalker wrote:Actually I was talking about the previous bike with the BB located direct drive GNG motor and pegs!

I wasn't aware of that one. Nice! Link!?
Attachments
big_block_alternative_sm.jpg
big_block_alternative_sm.jpg (29.19 KiB) Viewed 17089 times
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Last edited by crossbreak on Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby crossbreak » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:57 pm

silence wrote:
crossbreak wrote:Delta or WYE/Star termination?

bzhwindtalker has quite detailed photo in this thread.
Seems like 4 termination points, so most likely WYE.


I agree, must be Star/WYE
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:06 pm

Not sure at all! Need to check more in detail BUT there seems to be 2 wire bundles per phase
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby dan974 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:15 pm

bzhwindtalker you can call the guy in marseille for more info maybe, he told me he design is own motor but when I see that he sell the GNG :lol: :lol: :lol:

give it a try, I alreay call him 3 mths ago
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http://electra-bike.fr/
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:19 pm

Yep will do, 'm still quite buzy with the exams going on but next week it's on my list! will ask about bulk reductions and motor variations in KV, winding ext..
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:22 pm

The motor seems indeed to be WYE. Good thing, I may Delta it for more speed as I will have too much reduction otherwise.
Plus delta+gearing should quazi always be superior to WYE unless saturation/huge iron losses curve is reached?
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:29 am

BTW, Nice work on the Drawing, seems good to me!
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby litespeed » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:53 am

I need to watch this thread too!

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Postby bzhwindtalker » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:54 am

I will call the seller this week, what should I ask from him? I will ask about discounts and mechanical drawing but there may be other interesting stuff to ask!
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