BIG BLOCK alternative Motor

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by John Bozi » Jan 11 2015 3:01pm

riba2233 wrote:Golden motor (at least 5kw model) is of really low quality, it's just a matter of time when you are going to have a problem with it. It also cant do 5 kw continuous (tested by luke), and when you look at it better, it has low power to weight ratio. One good thing about it is that it can do great power bursts for few seconds.
thanks there's no better data than someone found out first hand...

Could someone here who has tried many motors then advise me of a motor choice?

At moment I'm relatively happy with my 4065 (2.5kw rated hub motor, often running at 4kw for long mountains with a few 5kw bursts up super steep stuff) it just wastes a ton of power when going slow and bogs on super steep, I'm happy to give up the top end speed to get it running geared down to run at about 25 kmh = just over my average speed. In a 20" wheel top speed is just over 60kmh....

Can the big blocks run this power and shed the heat for this?

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 11 2015 6:16pm

I have the big block running at exactly 60kmh on 20S, on a flat it can do this speed all day and barely even warm. Hill climbs, I can climb steep hills and mountains and the motor will barely get warm.

It's smaller than a Hub and sheds heat better because the motor runs at higher RPM. In fact, the more reduction you run, the cooler, and less amps it will consume but you lose top speed but gain more torque.

I'm running with a 4:1 reduction so it has great torque but also a high top speed. 60kmh on 20S, I plan on increasing to 24S I'm hoping for 65-70kmh


I've ran this motor 2000w+ continous and 5000w peak, and it barely gets warm. Runs cooler than my hub most of the time even with wild acceleration.

I can tell you now, this motor can outrun my fat bike with Crystalyte 4040 easily, run cooler, and has much more torque at the same voltage. Crystalyte 4040 will have slightly higher top speed but only 2-5kmh higher.
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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by John Bozi » Jan 11 2015 7:42pm

can your set up run at 10-20 kmh for about 5 minutes up an almost 100% grade without overheating?

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 11 2015 9:11pm

John Bozi wrote:can your set up run at 10-20 kmh for about 5 minutes up an almost 100% grade without overheating?
I did that for almost 25 mins 3000 feet climb, motor was slightly warm. If geared it lower, it would have been cool to the touch.
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by John Bozi » Jan 11 2015 10:03pm

evolutiongts wrote:
John Bozi wrote:can your set up run at 10-20 kmh for about 5 minutes up an almost 100% grade without overheating?
I did that for almost 25 mins 3000 feet climb, motor was slightly warm. If geared it lower, it would have been cool to the touch.
Wholly crapola, if you are doing that, overheat less than a big hub and still have the high end speed, why am I using a big hub motor at all?

Sorry I just had to post this pic to make sure we mean 100%. :shock:

Image

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 12 2015 12:49am

John Bozi wrote:
evolutiongts wrote:
John Bozi wrote:can your set up run at 10-20 kmh for about 5 minutes up an almost 100% grade without overheating?
I did that for almost 25 mins 3000 feet climb, motor was slightly warm. If geared it lower, it would have been cool to the touch.
Wholly crapola, if you are doing that, overheat less than a big hub and still have the high end speed, why am I using a big hub motor at all?

Sorry I just had to post this pic to make sure we mean 100%. :shock:

Image
My bad more like a 50-55% grade, I did do that for extended time about 25 min and motor will be warm. Can easily blitz up mountains. Anything under 50% is a cakewalk.
http://www.electricrt.com
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EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by upek » Jan 12 2015 4:32am

@John
Are you sure that you need 100% hill climbing ability?

According to this calculator: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 55#p312555

At 74V 70A (around 5kw input) you need to gear it to 20km/h to do that!

Image
calc.png
calc.png (50.06 KiB) Viewed 1050 times
With that huge gear ratio you will be able to ride up that hill at 16km/h

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Drum » Jan 12 2015 12:17pm

With the high centre of gravity of the bike / rider and the short wheelbase of an electric bibycle, I would be extremely surprised if you could ride up a 100% (45 degree) slope at a steady speed regardless of torque or gearing.
I think you would wheelstand if you had traction, wheelspin if you didn't.

45 degrees is EXTREMELY steep!
Dave

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 12 2015 12:28pm

for some reference.. e bike climbs ski jump 80% grade :
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Jan 12 2015 1:14pm

Have a look at the motor going up stairs at 1min 10s in this video :



The big block on 12s. On 20s with adequate gearing it will climb anything for short amounts of time. At least anything you can ride up to!

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by John Bozi » Jan 12 2015 4:22pm

I'm not sure how to measure steepness in the field of a slope. But the firetrails have sections which are almost impossible to walk up without slipping down.

Yes I agree there comes a point where the bike either slips or flips. my 5kw in 20" wheel is already there. My mates 24" still wound down spins like mad through stuff that I can barely walk up with not more than a 10kmh run up.

Just googled my city to get a better idea of slope where bitumen offers no problems with grip. If this bloody rain stops It is go pro time.

I will go out and get a better idea of what numbers to put on my off road slopes by doing some on road measured ones.

top 20 in Brisbane.

Gower Street, Toowong: 1 in 3.2 incline; 17.4 degree angle; 31 per cent slope.
Stoneleigh Street, Red Hill: 1 in 3.4 incline; 16.4 degree angle; 29 per cent slope.
Reading Street, Paddington: 1 in 3.5 incline; 15.9 degree angle; 29 per cent slope.
Nott Street, Red Hill: 1 in 3.7 incline; 15.1 degree angle; 27 per cent slope.
Glamorgan Street, Paddington: 1 in 3.8 incline; 14.7 degree angle; 26 per cent slope.
Eton Street, Toowong: 1 in 3.8 incline; 14.7 degree angle; 26 per cent slope.
Sankey Street, Highgate Hill: 1 in 3.9 incline; 14.4 degree angle, 26 per cent slope.
Prospect Street, Wynumm: 1 in 3.9 incline; 14.4 degree angle; 26 per cent slope.
Murray Street, Red Hill: 1 in 4.1 incline; 13.7 degree angle; 24 degreee slope.
Highview Terrace, St Lucia: 1 in 4.2 incline; 13.4 degree angle; 24 degree slope.
Bishop Street, St Lucia: 1 in 4.2 incline; 13.4 degree angle; 24 degree slope.
Jay Street, Red Hill: 1 in 4.4 incline; 12.8 degree angle; 23 per cent slope.
Broadhurst Street, Kelvin Grove: 1 in 4.6 incline; 12.3 degree angle, 22 per cent slope.
Dewar Tce, Sherwood near Arboretum: 1 in 4.8 incline; 11.8 degree angle; 21 degree slope.
Hampson Street, Kelvin Grove: 1 in 4.9 incline: 11.5 degree angle; 20 per cent slope
Surrey Street, Red Hill: 1 in 4.9 incline; 11.5 degree angle; 20 per cent slope.
Ellis Street, Kangaroo Point: 1 in 4.9 incline; 11.5 degree angle; 20 per cent slope.
Chaprowe Road, The Gap: 1 in 5.2 incline; 10.9 degree angle; 19 per cent slope.
Norwood Tce, Paddington: 1 in 5.4 incline; 10.5 degree angle; 19 per cent slope.
Quarry Street, Hamilton: 1 in 5.4 incline; 10.5 degree angle; 19 per cent slope.

Will do the one in my suburb and then do the steepest one (although will be out of the hot off charge ability on it) having to ride there.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Drum » Jan 13 2015 1:34pm

John, Here's a simple way to measure slopes (in degrees): Buy a spirit level with a rotatable element, put the level on the slope and rotate the dial until the bubble indicates level, then read the angle off the side. Cheap Chinese levels with this feature are cheap, and good enough for the purpose, but better quality ones are available, and quite useful for other purposes.
Here's a photo of mine:
WP_20150113_002 (Custom).jpg
WP_20150113_002 (Custom).jpg (135.13 KiB) Viewed 3957 times
When I started actually measuring slopes, I always found that they were not as steep as I had estimated.
Dave

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incline

Post by John Bozi » Jan 13 2015 3:27pm

Yeah I am keen to buy a cheap one that would fit in my back pack. Would be nice to mod one with spikes to hold in place on the ground not to slide down the dirt and then film third person ride by.

Otherwise I was wondering on some old Math formulas to calculate triangles lengths... If I can work out my altitude points A and B and then Km between them.... anyone know the formula?

This is my last video, I usually record uphills but this one I wanted to record my favorite downhill run. This video only shows the first minute of I am guessing around 15 minutes from the peak to the base.

Just where the video ends is on the other side of the steepest part of the run. My gopro cut short my mates amazing climb up that slope (really peeved at that)...Just where his wheel was spinning was the first ridge and then past that there is another few metres of steep climbing, but no recording...


Does anyone know what motor the oset 20 uses? Also they are probably going to release a 24" version which looks a bit like windtalkers frames...

At around $3k with a shop in my city to pick up - thats pretty hard package to beat for a fun bike. Just not keen on no pedals when I encounter people in places I shouldn't be which is everywhere but my backyard....

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 13 2015 4:15pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
John Bozi wrote: Otherwise I was wondering on some old Math formulas to calculate triangles lengths... If I can work out my altitude points A and B and then Km between them.... anyone know the formula?
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

evolutiongts   10 kW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 14 2015 11:32pm

100Volts, look at that 3000RPM motor! 7135W Peak now! Motor barely gets warm.

Image

Image

Image

Image

http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by John Bozi » Jan 15 2015 4:29am

yeah 24s is serious mc territory, for me after trying it a briefly a few times sure it's nice but it is a kind of line that you pass from ever being a bicycle. In a 20" wheel the torque is total what the frock. fun for doing people's heads in but only good if live in a winter country or in winter for me to keep lots of clothing on in case the bitumen gives you a kiss.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 16 2015 4:29pm

Slow technical uphill crawl, Big block was ice cold to the touch. Her hub motor was smoking. 3-4mile uphill climb.
I had about 95% throttle in reserve.

http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by scorpionice » Jan 17 2015 9:41pm

Nice :D

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 19 2015 2:14am

crossbreak wrote:if you want speed you need volts. no propper way arround it except RC drives. dont try Delta termination etc, that doesn't work good with most motors
hey cross

just wondering if you could give some more insight into why this would be... AFIK your biggest risk was a small efficiency hit, probably no more than 1-2% and the need to reposition the halls... The reason i ask is im thinking of doing exactly that with one of john in CA's 93% mini hubs, and running it on 22s with a max-e. Chances are it'd be fine as stock, but the abilty to run 1.5x the amps for around the same heat (ignoring the efficiency hit) appeals quite a lot, not to mention being able to run 1.7x the reduction, which may well make up for the reduced efficiency.


cheers mate

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by sraff » Jan 29 2015 7:25am

Hello guys, I contacted 2 companys:

http://e-bike-diffusion.com/index.php?m ... _num%253D1
-100 euro + 68 euro shipping

http://detail.1688.com/offer/1012215126.html
-the seller said:
Yes,yksuccess made the motor.

one motor sample is EURO180

air cost is EURO 130.
Dont know how is it possible, 500 chinese yuan equals 70 euro. Also dont understand why the shipping is so expensive ... :roll:

Any better ideas where to buy this motor?

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Drum » Feb 01 2015 1:29pm

Hi Sraff,
Before buying my motor, I e-mailed YK Success directly trying to buy direct from them. I did not get a reply.
If you were willing to take the risk, you could try using a Taobao agent to purchase direct from YK Success and ship it to you.. it would undoubtedly be the cheapest way.

I considered trying the Taobao agent route, but after reading up on other people's experiences I bought from BHT and had no problems with the process. If I wanted another one I would probably buy from them again.

Good luck,
Dave

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Drum » Feb 01 2015 2:20pm

For those of you who haven't seen it, This web page http://detail.1688.com/offer/1012215126.html includes test report tables and motor curve graphs for the motor that is the topic of this thread.
The web page is in Chinese but the graphs and tables have enough English words and numbers to be useful.
I tried to "Cut & Paste" the graphs and tables so I could post them here, but no luck so far.. will try again when I have more time.

Dave

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riba2233   1 MW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by riba2233 » Feb 01 2015 4:31pm

Image

Image
My electric moped: http://www.evalbum.com/4966

My electric car: http://www.evalbum.com/5364

sraff   1 mW

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by sraff » Feb 02 2015 8:02am

Drum wrote:Hi Sraff,
Before buying my motor, I e-mailed YK Success directly trying to buy direct from them. I did not get a reply.
If you were willing to take the risk, you could try using a Taobao agent to purchase direct from YK Success and ship it to you.. it would undoubtedly be the cheapest way.

I considered trying the Taobao agent route, but after reading up on other people's experiences I bought from BHT and had no problems with the process. If I wanted another one I would probably buy from them again.

Good luck,
Dave
Hello Drum,

as you can see I contacted YK success directly and copied their reply here, with their high prices. After I asked them why the price is so high they do not replied.

Until now the best option for me is BHT, too. Have you pay customs? Also I asked BHT if they pack well, because someone here had problems with the motor after receiving it, they said that it depends on the courier ...

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Drum » Feb 02 2015 11:03am

Hi Sraff,
BHT packed the motor reasonably well... not great, but not bad.
It arrived with the ends of 2 or 3 cooling fins slightly bent, which were easy to straighten out (I used a small Crescent spanner). I couldn't see any matching damage on the box, and wondered if the fins were bent before shipping.

As I said, overall I would be comfortable buying from them again.

I am in New Zealand. In general NZ Customs do not bother about one-off parcels below NZ$400 in value, and my motor came through with no duty or sales tax charged.

It is weird that the manufacturer wants such a high price for the motor. I wonder if the 180 Euro included the shipping?? "180 Euro of which 130 Euro is shipping".. although that seems too cheap for the motor.
Possibly some Chinese companies are not used to international shipping and don't really want to spend the time organizing it, so charge a high price for international sales.

Dave

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