BIG BLOCK alternative Motor

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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crossbreak
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:07 am

do you think this can fit a 100mm BB? Looks like the extrusion is ~100mm with the first extensions... could you measure, please?
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bzhwindtalker
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:32 pm

It is 110mm unfortunately... but under the screw heads it's ~96mm

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:58 pm

thx a lot! Guess 96mm was the one I asked for.. I guess since 110mm is the outer dimension incl. covers that include the bearings...This is awesome since it tells me that this will definitely fit a 100mm BB, thus a nice option for sandbikes

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:35 pm

Check what I just found while searcing for A 24" trial wheel model haha!
https://grabcad.com/library/bdlc-brushl ... 8v-1000w-1


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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:58 pm

thx for the cad material.

I found this offer by goldenmotor: http://www.devi-motion.com/webshop/bldc ... t-500.html
it has 1000rpm loaded at 48V, is 108mm long, rated 650W. Looks equal to our "big block" alternative... I'll try to get more info from them, they postet almost nothing on their site.

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liveforphysics
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by liveforphysics » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:56 am

Image

That photo is so painful to see. The motor and controller look great. The part where they have a pair of inherently high loss 90deg power transfer stages, along with an oil filled differential is the part causing all the pain. It seems insane everyone doesn't just use a pair of hubmotors for those trike applications. I'm in China right now, and I see those electric trikes running around everywhere. I don't know why they don't make them cheaper and lighter and more robust and radically more efficient and quiet by dropping all the ICE powered legacy parts and designing it around being electric rather than some cobbled multi-stage power transfer/loss shenanigans. At least it's not ICE powered, but it's sad to not see electric be done as well as it can be.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by CEGB » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:09 am

Could it be that way because it's been designed to be a) cheap, and b) super-reliable?

It might be heavy, and inefficient, but it looks like it could outlast just about anything. London's famous black cabs are built in a similar way, using ridiculously heavy and inefficient components from trucks rather than the lighter, more efficient, and proven technologies from cars. The result is a vehicle that has low acceleration, low top speed, poor efficiency, but an immensely elongated service life.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:50 am

the two angle drives are neither cheap nor super reliable. The angle gears may even need to be adjusted in service life, something you dont need if you use straight gears.

Hub motors suffer from bad heat transfer, high non-suspended weight, they make it hard to change a broken tire. You have the problem of additional connectors to the motors. Many drawbacks that makes the chinese take the more "simple" solution.

The best solution here would be IMO:
-Two motors with an own straight-cut gear reduction and controller.

To drive two motors you need a "brain" to connect them to one throttle. Not trivial, but doable. If one motor fails, you can still drive home with only one by steering against the driven wheel.

@Luke plz take lots of pics and keeps us up :)

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by silence » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:00 am

Two-motor drive would be a luxury, but definitely doable.
Even replacing the right wheel of this creature with hub motor or adding a second motor/planetary combo to this type of rear axle.
+ some kind of electronic differential (first google hit).

About angled drives - I was always thought these transaxle units contain just plain two-stage reduction with helical gears + differential (which has 90deg gears by its nature) :roll:
Something like FWD cars with transverse engine have.

Sorry for OT

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liveforphysics
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by liveforphysics » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:47 am

Crossbeak- For less weight than just the pair of drum brake assemblies I could give it better drive performance and reduce unsprung weight greatly (remember, that oil filled pumpkin in the middle along with your motor and angle - drives are all unsprung).

You could use a comparitively tiny pin/slot type brake for parking, otherwise motor regen with no rear mechanical dynamic braking.

An E - differential takes no special programing of any kind. You simply run a pair of torque based throttle controllers. It works better than a mechanical open diff by a mile.
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by Hillhater » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:24 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Image

That photo is so painful to see.
Yes, its definitely not an ideal EV set up , but i suspect its done that way because its just a cheap Econversion for the existing ICE powered cabs.
IE, the Motor, controllers etc are sold as a kit to bolt onto the existing axle & reduction gearing that was used by the ICE.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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crossbreak
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:13 am

good point luke :D All we need to connect two motors to one throttle is a Y-Cable if we have two torque mode throttle controllers. Should work flawless.
The only thing that must be unsprung weight is the sprocket on the drive axle. The motor could be mounted on the swing arm near the pivot so it's not unsprung.

Anyway, back on topic: Measured motor weight, my scale shows 5.32 kg including the free 14T that my motor came with.
Just ask for one if you order your motor there, they charged me nothing for that.
The inner dia of the sprocket : 14.22 mm
Key thickness: ~3mm ; width: 3.95 mm , length: 10mm (same as sprocket length/thickness)

About KV: I measured 146Hz @ 44.4V. With 6 pole pairs this must be spinning at 1460rpm. Around 32.9 KV.

About Inductance: I measured 311 µH @ 400Hz

Cogging is so hard... i never had a motor that has so much cogging :(
The silver finish is really crappy.I'll wash it of with turpentine
There is a slot that looks like made for a 20-26-4 shaft seal ring. But it seems like the shaft surface was not polished at that place. Something we should do by ourselves before inserting a seal.
Last edited by crossbreak on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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bzhwindtalker
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:37 am

Are you sure about the 3,7kg? If so, is it the same 80*50mm rotor as mine?
thanks for the other info, I was suspecting myself that the sprocket that came in was #219, good thing! I have a 60t #219 somewhere and 14-60t should work well at 80v and 24"

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crossbreak
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:05 am

checked my scale, a euro is only 5g :shock: Changed battery, now it shows 5.32 kg for the motor :oops: I bought from the same shop and it looks identical so i'm sure it's the same as yours.

#219 matches my measurements of the sprocket.Thickness is 4mm. Caliper root is 31mm or 1.22 inch.. outer dia is 39.2mm // 1.54 inch.. check http://www.azusaeng.com/Sprockets/AzSDno219.pdf for a comparison.
Could be a 8mm 05T chaín as well, I am not sure.

Can you measure thickness of your 60T? Where did you get that one?

Edit: Measure some more.. #05T / #T8F chain fits best IMO... Sprockets available are 54T and 64T not many :( Only choices: 3.86 :1 and 4.57 :1

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:03 am

Max allowable load for the t8f is 2.15kN http://www.did-coltd.com/english/produc ... 02-103.pdf

This corresponds with 140A phase current with the 14T T8F sprocket. This offers 150Nm at the wheel when using the 54T sprocket.
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crossbreak
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:09 am

the same for 24s and 64T sprocket.. 177Nm is a lot :shock:
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--freeride--
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by --freeride-- » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:46 am

This setup will be absolutly brutal.
My BBS02 has 1250W and it is topping out at 50km/h pedaling the accelaration is really fast. 5x the power at nearly the same topspeed will make the bike a wheely monster. You could although gear it to 80-100km/h.


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crossbreak
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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:19 pm

yep, with 3.3kW you can reach reach 70kph, simple math tells you that for 100 you need almost exactly double of that. The 60kph are only a "guess". in real live it will be a bit faster.. it will get to 85% of no load speed i guess. That would be 65kph. It's not a street racer. It's made for offroad. The 45% max gain tell you what it may do :D

I just tried 100V on that motor to see what it says to it: Does rpm rise linearly up to 100V? Yes it does. When touching my test board I was surprised how much 100V twitter my fingers when touching the poles :shock:

I definitely want a 18Fet infineon controller know :D

Anyway i will stay with 74V ATM since I dont have a 24s BMS and I heard that people fried their Infineons with 24s. Not gonna join that club. This motor is wound so slow that it only does around 15k e-rpm even at 100V. even the slow Sabvoton controllers should work fine with these motors... for such a setup you definitely need a torque throttle.. the crappy speed throttle interface of the infineons will be very hard to control.

With 12 magnets and 4:1 reduction this motor "feels" like a normal DD-Hub with 48 magnets for the controller. So anyone that works with DD-Hubs should work fine.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:27 pm

I will get one of those (http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72121x55a ... p-529.html)to se if the have better control than say a cheap 15fet hua tong hehe

I'm fed up with poor control of power :?

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:57 pm

damm how tiny it is.. can't believe this 8 x 11 cm small box can do 130A phase current :shock: Another thing I like is variable regen. I'll wait and see what you tell before I order a Sabvoton.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by christerljung » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:03 pm

I got 24s on two bikes with Lyen Infineon controllers. They like 24s except for when motorshaft was mechanically locked, then i had to replace one FET...
An important thing to consider with these motors and controllers is how to get the Power manageable. The 24s/GNG setup really shines on the upperband 60 - 100volt. At lower voltages it gets more twitchy, when doing wheelies.

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:15 pm

Today I tested the 14 driver with #219 and nope, it won't work very well... not far but not a go. I have a bad experiance with t8f breaking!

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Re: BIG BLOCK GNG alternative Motor

Post by crossbreak » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:18 pm

what experience? you mean mixing chain standards !?! :D

The seller acknowledged that it is T8F

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