LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Föppel   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Föppel » Jun 12 2015 4:22pm

Hey Mike! I will defininitely see one of your kits on such a 4 wheeled trike :shock: :shock:

Here a short video from last weekend, some riding in the woods:


Have a nice day, and keep building dirty motors!
Riding dirty since 1684
Fotos and Videos here : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68182
Small-block Kits on 3000W+ here : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=78861

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Andytheswede » Jun 12 2015 6:10pm

How fast was that on the flat?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 12 2015 6:16pm

Awesome video! I didn't want it to end.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2015 9:55am

LightningRods wrote::shock:

Ohmygawd, I'm in lust! How much fun would one of these be with a big block on it??
I've currently got a unfinished, blue ICE Sprint 26 sitting in my living room, waiting for me to decide on what kind of rear wheel size and electric motor to use.
A 20" rear wheel with a 9C 3004 hub and 20s battery would give me the 45+mph top speed I seek. A 24" rear wheel like in my current ICE Sprint 26 would be more confortable, though.

My current, black ICE Sprint with nose fairing
Image

Since the rear wheel is unsuspended, just an electric motor mounted on top of the frame, in front of the wheel (the Big Block is unfortunately too large, but the Revolt RV-100 should fit), a 13tooth free wheel sprocket, a brake disk adapter with 65tooth chain ring (for a single 1:5 chain reduction) and a chain tensioner fixed to the generator mount (to guide the chain over the upper left rear frame tube) might be all thats needed to abandon heavy hub motors.

Image
http://www.icetrikes.co/explore-our-tri ... nt/gallery#
http://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=7141

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 14 2015 10:00am

How is the big block too large? It's 5" in diameter and 4" wide. You appear to have that much room behind the seat.
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Marc S.   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2015 10:09am

The space between frame and seat is big enough for a Big Block, but will be occupied by the battery.
I've only got the space above the rear frame, or inside the rear frame left. 5" diameter is too big.
A 4" motor would be fine just in front of the wheel above the main frame tube, or maybe inside the frame (behind the main frame tube) if I use a 24" wheel.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 14 2015 11:03am

The Revolt looks like a decent motor. I like the low kv and the compact size. But in addition to the different mounting method for the can of the motor the output shaft is also 15mm instead of 12mm. I've spent three years designing and inventorying drive parts based on the 12mm standard. It's not worth starting over for a motor that is really just comparable to what I have now.

If I were designing the entire system for this recumbent I'd put the batteries on either side of the drive unit. There is plenty of width behind the seat for the drive in the center with a 12.5Ah pack on either side.

Designing a drive system is many times more difficult than designing a battery box.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2015 1:34pm

I just checked again, the Revolt RV-100 motors have 12mm shafts. The bigger RV-120 got the 15mm shafts.
Image
Image

I'm actually not set on a Revolt motor. I just couldn't find the dimensions of your motors... ;)
I need a motor capable of about 2kW continous and 3.5-4kW peak. About 100mm (4") in diameter and 100mm in lenght.

In my 'commuter' Sprint 26 I've recently mounted the batterys to both sides of the seat. There might be enough space for a drive unit inbetween.
Using some clamps to mount the drive unit to the frame under the seat would work, but then the chain line is rather problematic.

Since I got three perfectly situated mounting points for one M8 bolt and two M5 screws at the ICE Sprint rear frame, I rather use them to securly attach a bracket for the drive unit on top of the rear frame and have a simple chain line.

Do you have #219 kart chain freewheel sprockets?

Archer   10 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Archer » Jun 14 2015 4:35pm

Marc,

You definitely could add battery boxes on each side just under where you sit attached to frame.You obviously want equal weight on each side and too the weight would be low and centered.

The real issue isn't adding everything you need to go electric.But rather can your trike frame handle all that extra weight and increased speed with that weight?

I'm sure your no stranger to trikes built for speed vs those built for touring with cargo.

Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks Marc.

Tim.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Archer » Jun 14 2015 4:57pm

LightningRods wrote:Question: If it has four wheels and power assist are you getting into a weird place with the law? If it has three wheels it can be Chevy V8 powered and it's still a motorcycle. Do the pedals keep this a "cycle" instead of a motorized vehicle?
Although the state laws except a very few have not kept up with human powered/pedaled bicycles,they also will not bother with you.1,2,3,4,5,6 etc wheels just simply doesnt matter.And of course adding electric is ok too,providing you stay at 20 mph or under.I believe there is a power limit also.But with that said you can have any amount of speed and power off road.So you would simply need to switch between both,wink wink.

In California anything exclusively human powered that has gears, chain or belt drive is legally a bicycle. In states that have stupid HPV definitions, I would not sweat it, because most police do not understand the legal definitions anyway. Some states even say a bicycle must have two wheels, which excludes trikes!

Here is a short video of one of the Catrike 4 wheel pedal quad.You can buy these too.Cool stuff.Now imagine an LR big block on that bad boy! :shock:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiObalNZuSM

Marc S.   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2015 6:35pm

Archer wrote:Marc,

You definitely could add battery boxes on each side just under where you sit attached to frame.You obviously want equal weight on each side and too the weight would be low and centered.

The real issue isn't adding everything you need to go electric.But rather can your trike frame handle all that extra weight and increased speed with that weight?

I'm sure your no stranger to trikes built for speed vs those built for touring with cargo.

Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks Marc.

Tim.
Hi Tim,

Like I wrote, currently I've got two 10s12p batterys mounted on each side of the seat in my 'old' ICE Sprint (the one with the nose fairing). They weight about 12lbs each. A third 20s5p battery is mounted on the front boom. Thats an other 10lbs... The batterys will get used on both trikes.

I regularly reach 42mph top speed on the flat and the ride is very stable. The ICE front suspension does help. The ICE Sprint 26 is a very versatile trike with great handling out-of-the-box. I've build sturdier wheels and use a wide 24" rear wheel to account for the higher speed. Here is a summary of the Sprint: http://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=7141
Braking is very good as well, thanks to the bigger 90mm Sturmey Archer drum brake hubs at the front. Drum brakes offer plenty of braking power in 20" wheels but need way less maintanance than disk brakes and don't change braking power in rain. Their 'British' design is a bit crude, though.
Braking at these speeds in rain is an issue. Fortunately the Schwalbe Big Ben provide really great traction on wet roads. I hardly notice any difference in braking distance in rain.

To better support the frame with the seat, I'm using stronger clamps between seat and frame and will add a third mounting point in the middle. Fortunately I'm rather light weight and don't exeed the max rider weight even with the batterys mounted to the seat.

Pedalling at 45mph was not possible before using a 65 tooth chain ring. Shifting between the 42t, 52t and 65t chain rings works ok, but it took some fiddeling to set-up the front derailleur.

Hence the new trike will get a 2speed Patterson Metropolis crank drive with a 1:1.6 overdrive and I like to mount two chain rings to it as well. http://pattersonbike.com
With the Patterson, 38 tooth and 53 tooth chain rings will give 61 tooth and 85 tooth 'virtual' chain rings in overdrive. That should take care of my pedaling cadence at top speed AND will give me a nice low gearing if I have to limp home without, ahem, electric 'assist'. :D

A side note about the Patterson Metropolis:
The brushed finish is really bad. Inside its a pretty well designed 2speed planetary gear with good sealing.
The chain ring is actually freewheeling!
Changing the stock 28t chain ring to the 130mm chain ring adapter is pretty easy. http://pattersonbike.com/product/pulley-spider-adapter
Customer support from Sam Patterson is great.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Archer » Jun 15 2015 10:51pm

Marc,

Thanks for the reply.It's obvious you have a lot of knowledge and hands on with the ICE Trikes.

I have been thinking very seriously about an electrified trike,especially after seeing the new ARCUS velo shell.It was made for the ICE Sprint and Adventure trikes.It will also fit a handful of other trikes with a bit more work.I'm in the US and am waiting on a Man who recently bought an ARCUS Shell kit.I want to get the pros and cons etc before making a final decision.

And if I could have it powered with LR's kit that would be the icing on the cake.ARCUS pic below.

Take Care.

Tim.
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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by mwkeefer » Jun 16 2015 12:24am

Hey guys,

Is there a way to archive an entire thread with all pages in a single page on this php forum?

I ask because as threads reach 50-100 pages they become very difficult to do a thread search or archive the thread for propesperity and to make sure its information is always available.

This is up to 220 pages of posts, surely time to get a full archive of the thread - awful lot of useful information here that could use archiving :)

If the feature doesn't exist, I could write a PHP script to do this at database level in about 20-30 minutes for specific threads, you could add the link to threads for admins only and thus generate archives of complete searchable thread content in a single ? html or pdf (searchable) archive.

Just an idea, likely better posted elsewhere but I just noticed how incredibly long some threads have grown... honestly in the past, my experience is that much data would have already dissappeared so I wanted to add archival features but now... well its grown this big without a loss... still a good feature to have of not available already.

-Mike

PS: If I've strayed too far off topic let me know I'll remove and post a new thread.
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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sparkz   10 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by sparkz » Jun 21 2015 3:59pm

Well, it's probably not the best place for it, but the archiving question is pertinent to this thread. Collectively, the pages (minus some careful edits) represent both a design history and how-to booklet for the LR mid-drive. Very useful stuff, as the drive is still an enthusiasts device, with much room for tuning and tinkering. Not PNP, yet.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by sparkz » Jun 24 2015 3:44pm

OK, I tried using a simple webbot to extract all the pages from LR mid-drive thread, but ran into some problems (like I said, I'm out of my comfort zone on this project.) I'm going to be forced to get clever on this one. And I really would like the resulting document, as I have one of LR's Big Block kits sitting on my workbench right now. If anyone out there is familiar with web scraping, or whatever it's called, feel free to point me in the right direction.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 24 2015 4:03pm

If you need help with your L-R kit please don't be shy. I'm happy to answer any questions and help in any way that I can. I enjoy getting 'how to' e-mails from customers as long as they haven't let themselves get too frustrated before writing.

I'm going to do the electrical connections video as soon as I can find a moment. Forgive me for assuming that all of this is obvious to others. I've been living and breathing it for three years.
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Overclocker   10 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Overclocker » Jun 26 2015 1:01am

LightningRods wrote:If you need help with your L-R kit please don't be shy. I'm happy to answer any questions and help in any way that I can. I enjoy getting 'how to' e-mails from customers as long as they haven't let themselves get too frustrated before writing.

I'm going to do the electrical connections video as soon as I can find a moment. Forgive me for assuming that all of this is obvious to others. I've been living and breathing it for three years.
Image

hi michael been using your upper sheets works great. just wondering what your thoughts are on freehub reliability when using powerful mid-drives.

i'm just on a 28A 48V controller right now, i have nothing to worry about, right?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 26 2015 1:42am

I assume you mean the rear wheel freehub. They come in a lot of different materials and quality levels. The cheap ones won't handle much power, the really good quality freehubs will probably take more power than a derailleur will. For single speed I've read that freewheel cogs are stronger than either freehubs or cassettes. At 1,300-1,400 watts any decent freehub should work fine.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Sigmacom   10 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Sigmacom » Jun 26 2015 7:34pm

What about a Rohloff on the rear? I see others are already using with this kit- what is the maximum power/torque limit recommended on it ?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 26 2015 7:44pm

Rohloff says that in terms of your warranty that the small block is way too much power at 1500 watts. On the other hand the US distributor is very excited about the use of their hubs on high power e-bikes and wants feedback on how they hold up. Eric at electricbike.com was running an Astro Flight 3220 through a Rohloff at 10kW and he said it held up fine. Several of my customers are running high power small blocks through Rohloffs and I've heard nothing but praise.

The good news is that Rohloff was smart enough to put plastic shear pins in their hub. If something blows up it will be that cheap part that's fairly cheap to replace. I've been told as little as $60.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ralith » Jun 27 2015 8:58pm

I'm interested in purpose-building an ebike for commuting over hilly paved roads (~20% +/- 5% grade, lots of up and down) and perhaps light offroad use in the future. I'm not interested in high speeds over flat terrain, but I'd like to make good time uphill, sometimes hauling maybe 50lbs of stuff, with little requirement for pedal input and no need to worry about overheating a motor, while still being able to pedal usefully when in friendly terrain and weather. I don't mind a bit of overkill, either. Am I right in judging that the small block kit is an ideal solution?

Bearing in mind that I'd prefer to spend under 3k total, and allowing ~1.1k for the kit, Lyen controller, and CA3, what's an ideal frame to be paired with this kit? I'd like a beefy rack, at least. Is there much to be gained over just buying whatever cheap steel mountain bike I can find on craigslist?

Is this kit available configured for torque sensing? If not, how difficult would it be for me to implement that myself with e.g. a THUN bracket?

I don't have much experience working on bikes, but I come from an engineering background and I'm willing and eager to get my hands dirty--as far as I'm concerned, that's half the fun. Should I be concerned about having difficulty with assembly?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jun 27 2015 11:06pm

The small block should serve your needs. Your budget pretty well eliminates the larger motor and Lyen controller, both of which are more expensive.

There are many advantages to buying a good quality bike. You will be way ahead to buy an older bike that is well cared for than a new or newer piece of MallWart junk.

Unfortunately the Thun bottom brackets are too narrow at 128mm to work with my mid drive. The best solution available for these mid drives is PAS cadence sensing. It's not as good as torque sensing but it is an alternative to the hand throttle.

Here are the how-to videos that show the assembly process in detail. Some people find assembly very simple, others seem to struggle. Take a look at the videos and see what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al3CAnQzmuA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03aHimPsm8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIacn6E7AeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTbLxVy30Y
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by t0me » Jun 27 2015 11:21pm

Go test ride some bikes. A good bike with geometry that fits you is a hell of a lot easier to ride and pedal. If its good to ride without a motor, it'll be even better with a motor.
Disk brakes are a bloody good idea, and hydraulic is better than cable almost always.
Kona Stink-E - GNG based mid-drive - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 16#p839416
Giant Anthem - LightningRods mid-drive http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 7#p1008007

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ralith » Jun 28 2015 3:02pm

LightningRods wrote:The small block should serve your needs. Your budget pretty well eliminates the larger motor and Lyen controller, both of which are more expensive.
Sorry, I may have been unclear. My budget is $3k and fairly soft; 1.1k was just my rough working estimate of what the kit and fixings will cost, based on the prices on your, CA's, and Lyen's websites. I can afford the big block. However, my impression from reading this thread is that the small block can already do all I want and then some, while the big block is so powerful that it's likely to tear through standard bike chain/gearing, in addition to being an unnecessary increase in expense and weight.
LightningRods wrote:There are many advantages to buying a good quality bike. You will be way ahead to buy an older bike that is well cared for than a new or newer piece of MallWart junk.
Got it. Would something like this be a good candidate? http://www.rei.com/product/825375/novar ... -bike-2013 It's not a big brand name, but the internet seems to like it. Steel, hydraulic disk brakes, front suspension.
LightningRods wrote: Unfortunately the Thun bottom brackets are too narrow at 128mm to work with my mid drive. The best solution available for these mid drives is PAS cadence sensing. It's not as good as torque sensing but it is an alternative to the hand throttle.
I see several places, including ebikes.ca, listing THUN brackets up to 136mm, though generally out of stock. I take it these are out of production and/or still too thin? Regardless, it's a shame, but I can do without. Hopefully more options will become available in the future. For future reference, what are the minimum dimensions you require?
LightningRods wrote:Here are the how-to videos that show the assembly process in detail. Some people find assembly very simple, others seem to struggle. Take a look at the videos and see what you think.
That looks straightforward, and nothing compared to putting together a 3D printer. Thanks! Feeling pretty optimistic now.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 04 2015 6:38pm

The new mid bike drive for the Surly Big Dummy cargo bike is completed.

Image

Image

Some of the new features include:

Two stage overdrive for the pedal input allowing an 80 rpm cadence at 33 mph using a 16T wheel cog.
Two stage reduction for the motor allowing a large 25T primary drive pulley and 18T secondary drive sprocket. Stronger and quieter.
Semi rigid urethane mounts that isolate the drive and the frame. Pattern cast on frame for a perfect fit. Backed with steel plate.
No motor power through the bottom bracket or pedal freewheel.
Super rigid triangular bracket design with the drive sprocket at the base of the triangle.
Adjustable fore and aft on the main frame beam to provide pedal chain tensioning.
Nickel plated ACS BMX single run final drive chain.
Optional BeamTS strain gauge torque sensor.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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