LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Wheazel » Apr 30 2016 9:31am

Well if you are refering to middrive power in a frame designed for pedal power, sure you will se flex.
But motocross bikes to name one example doesnt have any problems with this. Built rigid enough so that material bending under force is at an acceptable level.

You could also drive a shaft that shares the rotationpoint with the swing pivot to eliminate suspension compressing from both motor and pedals. They can both drive this intermediate shaft.
Have seen builds using that techique here on the es. And I will use that technique on my upcoming tilt quad build.
Make the rear swing stiff enough and you dont need to drive both sides of the rear wheel.
Having a hubmotor in the back doesnt let you change much than change suspension or swing to slightly imprive handling. You are pretty much stuck.
And my experience with riding a hubbie when it starts to get bumpy is everything else than pleasant compared to a lighter rear wheel.
With a middrive you can get around these problems. But that doesnt mean a middrive is always the best choice, you just have alot more options.
For everyday road use I dislike middrives as they are never as quiet as dd hubs.

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robocam   10 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by robocam » Apr 30 2016 9:47am

It's my understanding that the rear compresses because the chain pulls above the centerline of the rear axle, so the location of the shaft shouldn't make any difference. It's the position of the chain that affects how the rear suspension behaves. But still, I don't think power-induced suspension compression is really much of an issue...at least not for me at this point.

You're right about using a frame designed for power, but then the frame gets heavy. I was loading my bike onto a rack the other day, and I don't think I can lift it up if it gets much heavier.

There is another way to deal with the sideways flex. You can use a frame with a fixed rear triangle. This also eliminates any power-induced suspension issues. I did consider these two frames. I was leaning toward the Cyclone frame because it's lighter but it uses motorcycle brakes. I don't know what to make of that. Paco said I could use two regular bike discs with it, but where would I find a caliper? Anyway...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79609&p=1175077
Wheazel wrote:Well if you are refering to middrive power in a frame designed for pedal power, sure you will se flex.
But motocross bikes to name one example doesnt have any problems with this. Built rigid enough so that material bending under force is at an acceptable level.

You could also drive a shaft that shares the rotationpoint with the swing pivot to eliminate suspension compressing from both motor and pedals. They can both drive this intermediate shaft.
Have seen builds using that techique here on the es. And I will use that technique on my upcoming tilt quad build.
Make the rear swing stiff enough and you dont need to drive both sides of the rear wheel.
Having a hubmotor in the back doesnt let you change much than change suspension or swing to slightly imprive handling. You are pretty much stuck.
And my experience with riding a hubbie when it starts to get bumpy is everything else than pleasant compared to a lighter rear wheel.
With a middrive you can get around these problems. But that doesnt mean a middrive is always the best choice, you just have alot more options.
For everyday road use I dislike middrives as they are never as quiet as dd hubs.

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John Bozi   1 MW

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theory

Post by John Bozi » Apr 30 2016 10:45am

For me 2kw is still in the low power world.
2kw through gears is right about the sweet spot for mtb cassettes before failing from chainline or skipping issues and having enough grunt for mountains (not crawling)

I've run a bafang and had a cyclone 1680 follow me on a trail. They both were too slow on the long ascents and would over heat. They wouldn't make up for time lost here. A big block run at these power levels as SM pointed out is a new category which I will probably explore after I kill my current hub or something else fails. Still the question remains is the low speed that is required to climb slowly at what a cassette can handle going to win the race..... (future experiments but I highly doubt it)

There is no questions about plush handling of bumps. Again I don't believe this is where the race will be lost or won.

2kw on an extremely long race may well come up the winner, but you count me out to do the test on this one. I for one never want to go deeper into trail ever again than I can walk back from (learnt that recently the really hard way), so 15 km is about the distance for a fun ride and the test I will run.

I wish a couple of you guys running gears at 2kw could enter the race, I was desperate to get somebody. As it looks, it's my single speed mid drive vs 3 hub motors. 1 of the hub motors I just saw is 14kw capable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3kw vs 14kw.......

HEAT will play a decisive role here.

Ruts roots rocks branches gravel and extreme grades I'd say are secondary.

I feel at times we are stealing Mike's thread off track a bit, so I will leave this line of discussion until I have something more to show related to his kit.

Sorry Mike.

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notger   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by notger » Apr 30 2016 11:00am

i allready told you that i use a adaptto since several weeks now.

adjusting and playing around with wattage, accelaration, and many other values on the "run" is amazing.
so concerning the hub-issue, adaptto has a absolutely amazing feature there.
called acceleration, wich is not just simply cutting down the throttle signal.
i played around as long as i still got enough "boost" at startups, and the chain was not skipping, or weired sound comming out of the hub.

That allows me to use the small block with amazing 3000 Watt, and enormous power, (even on long uphill crawls)
so i really do not regret investing quite some money in the adaptto.
also heat is no topic anymore, i guess cause it's a sine wave controller, and it really cuts down the amps at motor-high-temperature pretty smart, and sometines hardly recogniceable, not like kelly did it before in stages.

But i know all the mentioned troubles from before when trying to go above 2kW (chain skipping, destroied hub, enormous motor heat,....)

notger

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by John Bozi » May 02 2016 3:28pm

Does anyone know the difference between a non broached adapter for the JS? (or motor for that matter)

Are they weaker?

I am thinking that the easiest to change out sprocket is the small one on the jackshaft because the chain can have more slack here with the spring loaded tensioner. It would be so cool to just change sizes determined by terrain on the fly. Just need to carry a hex.....

I see (correct me if there are other sources) only Azusa making these and they are only broached for 12 and 13t, the larger ones have no broach.
Sprockets for #219 Chain

12T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1952-K'
12T #219 Sprocket, Type B
with 3/16" Broached Key.
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $11.75
13T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1953-K'
13T #219 Sprocket, Type B
with 3/16" Broached Key.
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $12.25
14T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1954'
14T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $7.50
15T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1955'
15T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.25
16T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1956'
16T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.50
17T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1957'
17T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.95
18T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1958'
18T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $9.95
More Sprockets
http://www.out2win.com/catalog/sprkt_fb_34.html

thanks

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » May 03 2016 2:01pm

John Bozi wrote:Does anyone know the difference between a non broached adapter for the JS? (or motor for that matter)

Are they weaker?

I am thinking that the easiest to change out sprocket is the small one on the jackshaft because the chain can have more slack here with the spring loaded tensioner. It would be so cool to just change sizes determined by terrain on the fly. Just need to carry a hex.....

I see (correct me if there are other sources) only Azusa making these and they are only broached for 12 and 13t, the larger ones have no broach.
Sprockets for #219 Chain

12T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1952-K'
12T #219 Sprocket, Type B
with 3/16" Broached Key.
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $11.75
13T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1953-K'
13T #219 Sprocket, Type B
with 3/16" Broached Key.
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $12.25
14T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1954'
14T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $7.50
15T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1955'
15T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.25
16T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1956'
16T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.50
17T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1957'
17T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $8.95
18T #219 Sprocket x 3/4" ID, Type B
Part# 'AZ 1958'
18T #219 Sprocket, Type B
From Azusa Engineering.
Sell $9.95
More Sprockets
http://www.out2win.com/catalog/sprkt_fb_34.html

thanks
something else to carry with you...
You might need a puller too. The larger sprockets use a key and they are pretty tight. I doubt you will just loosen the set screws and pull the sprocket off.
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I'm 22, everythings gona be alright

Post by John Bozi » May 03 2016 3:57pm

ElectricGod wrote:
something else to carry with you...
You might need a puller too. The larger sprockets use a key and they are pretty tight. I doubt you will just loosen the set screws and pull the sprocket off.
The current "new" 12t and adapter has never experienced more than 40a x 80v and is still removable. I imagine at 4-5kw it would start to mash up again especially if there were a chain jam as I had a number times in the past on the old one.

Ideally a double sprocket here would be amazing if chain line wouldn't be such an issue....

on another note, I soon will be trialling 22s 91v because I want to low my amps. I find lower the amps the the motor kicks much more gently regardless of voltage. I will still limit watts to about 3-3.2kw. I need a bit more speed and capacity.... This should see a more consistent start to end power level.

My greatest concerns will be melting the primary dicta bearings.....

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Re: I'm 22, everythings gona be alright

Post by eTrailster » May 03 2016 5:00pm

John Bozi wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:
I find lower the amps the the motor kicks much more gently regardless of voltage. I will still limit watts to about 3-3.2kw. This should see a more consistent start to end power level.

My greatest concerns will be melting the primary dicta bearings.....
I don't understand John. I thought V was the constant and Amps the variable. So T start is zero amps, WOT is max set amps/bms limit, V remains constant. Could it be the controller somehow? Maybe I'm off base. I don't know.

In terms of melting bearings. I need to replace bearings in my smallblock. I don't know where to begin, but haven't even looked into it yet. If anyone has tips/instructions, advice would be appreciated. I have a blind puller and I know I have a tapered drift set somewhere so I am assuming I should be able to do this.

Anyway, a full ceramic bearing was $50. It will do 80k rpm and glow red without failing. I don't even know if it will fit/work or if it's appropriate, but I'm going to try it. Maybe they make ceramic bearings for big daddy as well? I purchased standard replacements as well. They were under $4 a pop.

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Re: I'm 22, everythings gona be alright

Post by ElectricGod » May 03 2016 6:20pm

John Bozi wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:
something else to carry with you...
You might need a puller too. The larger sprockets use a key and they are pretty tight. I doubt you will just loosen the set screws and pull the sprocket off.
The current "new" 12t and adapter has never experienced more than 40a x 80v and is still removable. I imagine at 4-5kw it would start to mash up again especially if there were a chain jam as I had a number times in the past on the old one.

Ideally a double sprocket here would be amazing if chain line wouldn't be such an issue....

on another note, I soon will be trialling 22s 91v because I want to low my amps. I find lower the amps the the motor kicks much more gently regardless of voltage. I will still limit watts to about 3-3.2kw. I need a bit more speed and capacity.... This should see a more consistent start to end power level.

My greatest concerns will be melting the primary dicta bearings.....
I know the chain is pretty short, but maybe you can take two sprockets and put them back to so the gap between the sprocket teeth is 1/4" or less. That would keep your chain line fairly straight. If the sprockets are too long to fit both on the shaft at the same time, consider welding them together and then cut of the extra carrier portion of the sprocket.
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Re: I'm 22, everythings gona be alright

Post by John Bozi » May 04 2016 1:44am

eTrailster wrote: I don't understand John. I thought V was the constant and Amps the variable. So T start is zero amps, WOT is max set amps/bms limit, V remains constant. Could it be the controller somehow? Maybe I'm off base. I don't know.
I was referring to full battery and empty battery. In my case at the moment it was around 82v finishing at 72v. I can pull 40 amps from start to finish. That would mean more watts at the start and less at the end. If I limit watts to what they would be at the end. I would have the same amount of power all the way through the ride. In my case I will be running my 12 fet over its recommended maximum volts. On 22s or 92v I am hoping in electric magic land that I don't understand I hope to drain more lightly at the start but still be a bit better off at the end where I started to find things starting to slow down a bit too much. I think it should be less noticable and possibly a plain more constant riding experience with watt limiting this way....

As for ceramic bearings please document everything you do so that we can follow your lead easily :)

As for welding sprockets - that sounds bloody awesome.... but the shaft is too short even if the rest of it worked...

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Used LightningRods mid drive kit for sale

Post by Remus » May 04 2016 3:46am

Hi all,

I've decided to sell my 1500w LR kit.
As I don't want to take over Mike's dev chat forum, please look here if your interested : viewtopic.php?f=9&t=80160

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Re: I'm 22, everythings gona be alright

Post by ElectricGod » May 04 2016 4:10pm

John Bozi wrote:
eTrailster wrote: I don't understand John. I thought V was the constant and Amps the variable. So T start is zero amps, WOT is max set amps/bms limit, V remains constant. Could it be the controller somehow? Maybe I'm off base. I don't know.
I was referring to full battery and empty battery. In my case at the moment it was around 82v finishing at 72v. I can pull 40 amps from start to finish. That would mean more watts at the start and less at the end. If I limit watts to what they would be at the end. I would have the same amount of power all the way through the ride. In my case I will be running my 12 fet over its recommended maximum volts. On 22s or 92v I am hoping in electric magic land that I don't understand I hope to drain more lightly at the start but still be a bit better off at the end where I started to find things starting to slow down a bit too much. I think it should be less noticable and possibly a plain more constant riding experience with watt limiting this way....

As for ceramic bearings please document everything you do so that we can follow your lead easily :)

As for welding sprockets - that sounds bloody awesome.... but the shaft is too short even if the rest of it worked...
I think it will work OK. Cut a sprocket off of the carrier portion that goes on the shaft. Then weld just the sprocket portion onto the other complete sprocket and viola! you have a 2 speed sprocket setup on a single shaft that still has a nice tight chainline.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by stonezone » May 06 2016 10:35pm

about a year ago I cut off the bits of some single speed cogs with the plasma, then tigged them all together into one fat cog with 2x1/8 in the middle for the 3/16" chain. The key is to have an old freehub body you can stack them on during the weld, otherwise there will be wobble for sure no matter how carefule you are... Standard welding rules apply, start one side, then the other, take your time and tig... mig would probably be a disaster.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by spinningmagnets » May 07 2016 3:06pm

Stonezone, that sounds pretty interesting, any pics?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » May 07 2016 6:58pm

stonezone wrote:about a year ago I cut off the bits of some single speed cogs with the plasma, then tigged them all together into one fat cog with 2x1/8 in the middle for the 3/16" chain. The key is to have an old freehub body you can stack them on during the weld, otherwise there will be wobble for sure no matter how carefule you are... Standard welding rules apply, start one side, then the other, take your time and tig... mig would probably be a disaster.
TIG is the only way to weld well IMHO. I REALLY wish I had a TIG welder.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » May 07 2016 6:58pm

a
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power combo

Post by John Bozi » May 08 2016 2:27am

I am just going to say this for all future lr kit buyers.

Turn up the volts as high as you can go and turn down the amps as low as you can go.

90v 20a is really the bees knees for most riding. (not extreme mountains).

At 20a you can grab a full handfull of throttle and there is no kick, and you can just wait for a smooth transition as your volts keep you climbing up to their end speed.

At 30a theres a little kick to the drive train unless totally slowly turn the throttle.

AT 40a it really kicks the swing arm.

I won't say higher its just bike destruction.

Anyone have good info about bearing changing of dictas freewheels to ceramic. I really think pushing this up to 100v or even higher is the way forward.

Mike was talking about it...

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3kw

Post by John Bozi » May 08 2016 4:33am

Mapping out one leg of the up coming race.

voltage had already dropped getting to this part.

The little 12 fet is crying


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Re: power combo

Post by ElectricGod » May 09 2016 1:53pm

John Bozi wrote:I am just going to say this for all future lr kit buyers.

Turn up the volts as high as you can go and turn down the amps as low as you can go.

90v 20a is really the bees knees for most riding. (not extreme mountains).

At 20a you can grab a full handfull of throttle and there is no kick, and you can just wait for a smooth transition as your volts keep you climbing up to their end speed.

At 30a theres a little kick to the drive train unless totally slowly turn the throttle.

AT 40a it really kicks the swing arm.

I won't say higher its just bike destruction.

Anyone have good info about bearing changing of dictas freewheels to ceramic. I really think pushing this up to 100v or even higher is the way forward.

Mike was talking about it...
It depends on who you talk to. Luke was telling me to stick to 48 volts and build for lots of capacity. I can see why. If you use a similar amount of cells to get 100v or 48 volts, then you have lots more cells for capacity (mah). Yes the motor will spin slower, but is easily fixed with gearing. I'm kind of torn...so 20S seems like a good balance between higher voltage and reduced mah. When I build a motorcycle conversion, then I'll go to well over 100v...on light stuff...20S seems pretty reasonable to me. I get 45-55mph on that which is plenty fast.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by eTrailster » May 09 2016 3:57pm

Hi,
Can someone who has opened one of these motors please give me some advice on how to do do so. I need to attempt to change the bearings. Mike has a video on youtube demonstrating bearing removal on a GNG motor. Does anyone know if the small block is the same?

I don't even know if there are one or two sets of bearings in these motors?

Certainly others have had bearings go bad and replaced them. Mine are screaming with less than 1000 miles on my ride. I need to learn how to do this. I can't afford to buy a new motor every 1000 miles.

Someone please help. Thanks

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » May 09 2016 4:10pm

eTrailster wrote:Hi,
Can someone who has opened one of these motors please give me some advice on how to do do so. I need to attempt to change the bearings. Mike has a video on youtube demonstrating bearing removal on a GNG motor. Does anyone know if the small block is the same?

I don't even know if there are one or two sets of bearings in these motors?

Certainly others have had bearings go bad and replaced them. Mine are screaming with less than 1000 miles on my ride. I need to learn how to do this. I can't afford to buy a new motor every 1000 miles.

Someone please help. Thanks
2 bearings...on one either end of the armature. They slide off pretty easily. There's 6 screws around the back of the motor. Remove them and then the end plates will come off with a little prying and tapping.


This is the back of the motor. Remove those 6 screws around the perimeter. Ignore the aluminum bracket. I'm using the big block in a scooter.

Image

The bearing will probably stay in the end plate and leave you a clean shaft like this. Tap the old one out of the end plates and insert the new ones. Reassemble. Easy peazy.

Image
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Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by eTrailster » May 09 2016 4:21pm

Here I'm seeking advice regarding crank arms.

I've always had a bad wobble when peddling the cranks. It was so bad, it influenced chain tension. Mike was talking about using White Industry freewheels but still needs to build a jig in order to machine crank arms to fit the WI freewheel. Although I wanted to utilize this freewheel upgrade, I'm afraid as others have reported that the cyclone crank arms are typically the cause of the crank wobble.

Given I need to rebuild my kit, the wobble needs to go. The amount of unnecessary lateral and other stresses and inefficiencies caused by the wobble and associated misalignments likely causes premature wear throughout the system.

I have heard someone mention TrialTech arms http://www.trialtech.co.uk/product.php?product_id=99

I'm not sure if anyone actually uses these, if they will work, or exactly which ones do work. Perhaps there are other options? Does anyone have a source?

I see CheekyBloke has some interesting crank arms on his bike. They don't seem to be either cyclone or trialtech.

Any advice would help.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by eTrailster » May 09 2016 4:24pm

ElectricGod wrote: 2 bearings...on one either end of the armature. They slide off pretty easily. There's 6 screws around the back of the motor. Remove them and then the end plates will come off with a little prying and tapping.


This is the back of the motor. Remove those 6 screws around the perimeter. Ignore the aluminum bracket. I'm using the big block in a scooter.

The bearing will probably stay in the end plate and leave you a clean shaft like this. Tap the old one out of the end plates and insert the new ones. Reassemble. Easy peazy.
Thanks. I will do this weekend.

Do you happen to know if both bearings are the same?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by cheekybloke » May 10 2016 5:14am

eTrailster wrote:Here I'm seeking advice regarding crank arms.

I've always had a bad wobble when peddling the cranks. It was so bad, it influenced chain tension. Mike was talking about using White Industry freewheels but still needs to build a jig in order to machine crank arms to fit the WI freewheel. Although I wanted to utilize this freewheel upgrade, I'm afraid as others have reported that the cyclone crank arms are typically the cause of the crank wobble.

Given I need to rebuild my kit, the wobble needs to go. The amount of unnecessary lateral and other stresses and inefficiencies caused by the wobble and associated misalignments likely causes premature wear throughout the system.

I have heard someone mention TrialTech arms http://www.trialtech.co.uk/product.php?product_id=99

I'm not sure if anyone actually uses these, if they will work, or exactly which ones do work. Perhaps there are other options? Does anyone have a source?

I see CheekyBloke has some interesting crank arms on his bike. They don't seem to be either cyclone or triaLs

Hi mate,
The cranks i use are made by Echo, i got then from Tarty bikes in the u.k.
There are plenty of cranks that will fit, here is a link to some
http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/cranks_pair/c514.html
Darren

Any advice would help.

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: power combo

Post by John Bozi » May 11 2016 3:53am

ElectricGod wrote:stick to 48 volts and build for lots of capacity. I can see why. If you use a similar amount of cells to get 100v or 48 volts, then you have lots more cells for capacity (mah). Yes the motor will spin slower, but is easily fixed with gearing. I'm kind of torn...so 20S seems like a good balance between higher voltage and reduced mah. When I build a motorcycle conversion, then I'll go to well over 100v...on light stuff...20S seems pretty reasonable to me. I get 45-55mph on that which is plenty fast.
low volts is practical and cheaper for controllers and components. More Parellel is easier to maintain than more Series too.

Yes we can gear what ever we want with mid drives but the higher the voltage the bigger the band, not only that it is a bigger creep in and roll out of speed.

I had since I got the kit been running the CA via the Amp settings. Today I tried via the watt settings and find it even better.

I need to do a full hard ride on it but just from on road tests the watt setting softens the edge even more off the initial kick to the drive train ever time you twist the throttle.

I make sure to only use one kind limiting now because if use both amp and watt limiting I find it really hard to find a point where something doesn't start oscillating and ending in a stuttering bike.

I've currently ridden around the streets on the watt throttle limited to 3kw and gain down to 10. It is incredibly even and if I'm not mistaken very predictive.

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