LightningRods mid drive kit

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 8:44am

LightningRods wrote:
Mammalian04 wrote:Nice. So you adapted a 219 sprocket to a white industries freewheel.
Great scooter build! Direct drive is definitely less trouble when there is room for it.

I make the 40T 219 sprocket that fits 5 bolt freewheels. I will offer other tooth counts if there's demand for it. 24T is the lowest count that will fit on the flange.
I want a larger 219 sprocket than the 40 tooth version that fits the 5 bolt pattern on the white free wheel. 50 tooth would be ideal. I already have your 40 tooth sprocket.

Yes lots of progress being made here.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 11 2016 8:57am

The start of common #219 driven sprockets is 64T. You can find drivers from 11T to 18T and driven from 64T to 93T. The same adapter plate that connects the BB freewheel to the BB driven sprocket would work on a rear wheel flanged freewheel. There is currently nothing in the 50T range. That would be a very good additional tooth count to offer. I'll get to work on it.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 11 2016 9:07am

I have a 50 and a 52 tooth that I got from Rocketsprockets. They have a mini 219 series that starts at 50 tooth and goes to 64 tooth. $18 for standard mini series. I havent run mine yet but they look to be acceptable quality machine work. I bought mine to run a 219 LH drive and the mini let me run under the 203mm brake caliper. The small dia of the 50 tooth tucks under there nicely.

http://www.rocketsprocket.net/sprocket16_010.htm

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 11 2016 10:32am

Good find. I hadn't seen those.

The caliper is the bugger on LH drive. I thought about a two stage drive that used a 40T 219 on the left rotor flange. Same idea, try to sneak in under the bulging caliper.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 11:15am

DanGT86 wrote:I have a 50 and a 52 tooth that I got from Rocketsprockets. They have a mini 219 series that starts at 50 tooth and goes to 64 tooth. $18 for standard mini series. I havent run mine yet but they look to be acceptable quality machine work. I bought mine to run a 219 LH drive and the mini let me run under the 203mm brake caliper. The small dia of the 50 tooth tucks under there nicely.

http://www.rocketsprocket.net/sprocket16_010.htm
SWEET!!! I've been looking around for 219 sprockets in this size and found nothing.

The 219 sprockets I have found in KART sizes stop at 60 tooth and that wasn't enough for my purposes. The 18 tooth driver that Michael mentioned, I already have and it got my 48kv big block to 44mph which was a bit lack luster IMHO. That was running on a 66 tooth wheel sprocket or 3.67:1. I got the 40 tooth wheel sprocket he offers and a 12 tooth driver which got me 3.33:1. I can now do 46mph on level ground. I have so much torque that I have limited phase current and I'm really light on the throttle to keep from popping wheelies all the time. I would love to turn some of that crazy torque into more speed and do it with larger sprockets to reduce noise. At 12 teeth on the driver the chain always makes noise. When I was running the 18 tooth driver it was almost silent. So the compromise is a larger wheel sprocket (50 tooth) and a larger driver. Also, a 50 tooth wheel sprocket will allow me to have variation to go to lower or higher ratios depending on what I need the scooter for. It's fun to take this thing on bike trails, but I'm pretty much set right now for that where torque rather than speed is the right answer. I mostly ride on the road so speed is what I really want. I tried my scooter down a good paved hill and topped out at 58mph, but that's not level ground speed.
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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 11:27am

Hey Michael/LightingRods,

Any chance you would be willing to make a free wheel adapter from the 5 hole pattern to these mini sprockets that rocketsprocket.net has? That way you could use someone elses already mass produced sprockets and just supply the adapter plate in a smaller OD. If such a beast existed, I would be buying one today.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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DanGT86   100 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 11 2016 11:54am

Had I only known there would be a market for them I would have made more than 1. Good news is the bolt pattern fits nicely around a white ind freewheel. Should be pretty easy for someone to replicate the adapter from flat plate. I can post dimensions later.

I remember rocket sprocket charges $1 per tooth for custom jobs. Also make sure you specify non-split when ordering anything from them because kart guys use 2 piece sprockets for quick changing without disassembling the axle. They may come as two piece if you dont specify.
image.png
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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 11 2016 12:54pm

I'll make an adapter plate if you need one.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 2:01pm

LightningRods wrote:I'll make an adapter plate if you need one.
KEWL! any idea on the price?
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Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 2:02pm

DanGT86 wrote:Had I only known there would be a market for them I would have made more than 1. Good news is the bolt pattern fits nicely around a white ind freewheel. Should be pretty easy for someone to replicate the adapter from flat plate. I can post dimensions later.

I remember rocket sprocket charges $1 per tooth for custom jobs. Also make sure you specify non-split when ordering anything from them because kart guys use 2 piece sprockets for quick changing without disassembling the axle. They may come as two piece if you dont specify.
image.png
How much $$ to make me one?
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 11 2016 3:05pm

PM sent.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Mammalian04 » Jul 11 2016 4:32pm

At these higher 60mph speeds, what are you guys doing for brakes? Anyone adapting moto brakes?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 4:58pm

Mammalian04 wrote:At these higher 60mph speeds, what are you guys doing for brakes? Anyone adapting moto brakes?
I stopped using mechanical brakes since they don't grab as well. I use hydraulic brakes, larger rotors and dual piston slave cylinders. For a bycycle, bike hydraulics ought to be enough, but for bigger and heavier stuff moped hydraulic breaks are sufficient.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Mammalian04   100 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Mammalian04 » Jul 11 2016 5:02pm

ElectricGod wrote:I stopped using mechanical brakes since they don't grab as well. I use hydraulic brakes, larger rotors and dual piston slave cylinders. For a bycycle, bike hydraulics ought to be enough, but for bigger and heavier stuff moped hydraulic breaks are sufficient.
Yeah, I think the modern hydraulic calipers for downhill bikes are probably up to the task but I think bicycle rotors might get just a little too toasty if you slow down from 60 a few times in a row...

Might be the next thing to beef up for me. We'll see if the dual front disk Tektro's keep cool.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 11 2016 5:26pm

Mammalian04 wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:I stopped using mechanical brakes since they don't grab as well. I use hydraulic brakes, larger rotors and dual piston slave cylinders. For a bycycle, bike hydraulics ought to be enough, but for bigger and heavier stuff moped hydraulic breaks are sufficient.
Yeah, I think the modern hydraulic calipers for downhill bikes are probably up to the task but I think bicycle rotors might get just a little too toasty if you slow down from 60 a few times in a row...

Might be the next thing to beef up for me. We'll see if the dual front disk Tektro's keep cool.
Or just get the biggest rotors you can find so you only need a single caliper. It's all about surface area. I personally like the KISS principal...keep it simple stupid...one caliper/rotor is much less complex than is two.
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Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by cheekybloke » Jul 12 2016 5:38am

Mammalian04 wrote:At these higher 60mph speeds, what are you guys doing for brakes? Anyone adapting moto brakes?
Hope 6 pot with a 225mm rotor, it will stop just about anything.
Had these on all my bikes for years and tried loads of others that do not come close.
Darren

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 12 2016 9:25am

Image
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 12 2016 10:54am

LightningRods wrote:Image
exactly...
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 12 2016 11:29am

I've ordered a #219 Rocket Sprocket and it's on it's way. I'll make a 12 gauge steel adapter plate as soon as it arrives.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Mammalian04 » Jul 12 2016 11:58am

You're the man Mike! I can't wait to see the final setup for the 140 and Q76. Foaming at the mouth.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 13 2016 10:29am

I've been thinking about your single stage drive on your scooter:
ElectricGod wrote: Image
There are two key differences between this scooter and typical bicycles. The first is that you don't have pedals to deal with. The other is that you have a very small diameter tire. The lack of pedals simplifies the driveline straight away. Trying to fit two separate chain lines and a disc brake rotor (with it's caliper) onto one wheel is a real challenge. Second the small diameter wheel requires a lot less motor reduction than a 26" or 29" wheel does.

With a typical bicycle tire my motors need about 8:1 reduction. That's a 12T front sprocket to a 96T rear sprocket in one stage. I think that's going to be noisy and really hard on the driver sprocket. The simplicity of it is appealing but I don't think the results would be as good as with your small diameter wheels.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 13 2016 1:52pm

LightningRods wrote:I've been thinking about your single stage drive on your scooter:
ElectricGod wrote: Image
There are two key differences between this scooter and typical bicycles. The first is that you don't have pedals to deal with. The other is that you have a very small diameter tire. The lack of pedals simplifies the driveline straight away. Trying to fit two separate chain lines and a disc brake rotor (with it's caliper) onto one wheel is a real challenge. Second the small diameter wheel requires a lot less motor reduction than a 26" or 29" wheel does.

With a typical bicycle tire my motors need about 8:1 reduction. That's a 12T front sprocket to a 96T rear sprocket in one stage. I think that's going to be noisy and really hard on the driver sprocket. The simplicity of it is appealing but I don't think the results would be as good as with your small diameter wheels.
I'm currently running the 12 tooth sprocket and it is noisy. This a big reason why I want a larger wheel sprocket. At 18 teeth on the driver it was almost silent.

I suspect that most folks doing these EV bike projects aren't pedaling much after they see how fast they can go even with a 1500 watt motor. IE: pedals become foot rests rather than a means to make one go.

I think simplifying the drive line to a single stage reduction would make lots of EV bike riders happy. Also, A cassette made of 219 sprockets on a heavy duty hub and a modified derailleur to take 219 chain might be a good way to produce a multi geared, all 219 solution on bikes. The rear 219 sprockets would need their teeth modified like bike sprockets so shifting gears would be possible.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by John Bozi » Jul 14 2016 6:24am

definitely want to get a 18t for the motor now. Lots of peeps are going that way it seems.... reduced sound and wear all bonuses, that are more important than weight in more sprocket and chain.... although reducing down at the back gets more expensive too with having to buy two chains to make one bicycle chain. You direct to rear and hard tail guys got it easy.... one of the massive hurdles is suspension and the problems it causes to powered chain.....

the heavier beefier it has to get - nothing matches everyones bike or needs, and Ive given up ebaying for things to mod.....

Made this one from scratch as a prototype... hope it holds up


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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 14 2016 7:51am

John Bozi wrote:definitely want to get a 18t for the motor now. Lots of peeps are going that way it seems.... reduced sound and wear all bonuses, that are more important than weight in more sprocket and chain.... although reducing down at the back gets more expensive too with having to buy two chains to make one bicycle chain. You direct to rear and hard tail guys got it easy.... one of the massive hurdles is suspension and the problems it causes to powered chain.....

the heavier beefier it has to get - nothing matches everyones bike or needs, and Ive given up ebaying for things to mod.....

Made this one from scratch as a prototype... hope it holds up

What?! Everyone should do things my way. I have all the right answers. LOL! Yeah...sometimes one persons idea of a good solution is a bad idea to someone else.

The 18T driver is super quiet compared to my 12T. I wish I would have recorded the chain sounds in a video with the two sprockets. Riding, the 18T sprocket makes the wind rushing past the single loudest sound and the chain sounds are about as loud as my tires on the road. With the 12T driver, chain noise is always the loudest sound and that's still quiet compared to the crappy t8f I used before switching to 219.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 14 2016 9:56am

Small driver sprockets are noisy and wear quickly compared to larger sprockets. Even turning the drive over by hand you can feel how much smoother the chain runs over the 18t.

When I was working on a 1,000 watt mid drive that people wanted to pedal along with more reduction was a good idea. If you can get most of that reduction with a belt drive it keeps the noise down. Now that we are dealing with 3000 + watts the rules are all different. Pedaling along makes no sense. Lots of reduction will destroy everything. With 3000 watts x 30:1 reduction good steel turns into butter.

I'm going to try to encourage riders who want to pedal along to get the small block. That motor will make as much power as a derailleur can handle. More maybe.

I'm working with cheekybloke on a scratch built stainless steel cassette right now. The trick is to make a gear cluster that is strong and won't skip, but will shift. Sprocket teeth that hold the chain securely while driving don't want to give it up to shift.

Look at the difference between the teeth on a Shimano cassette vs. a track cog:
Image
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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