LightningRods mid drive kit

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by John Bozi » Jul 21 2016 2:34pm

Xnoitulos,

That ride looked great fun, but do agree about urban stuff around people is not the best representation for us. I wouldn't delete the video, just make it private if you are worried.

You should come out to my tracks, no people to avoid.... :oops:

a couple of days ago only in Australia...

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 21 2016 4:18pm

LightningRods wrote:According to Cycle Monkey, the main vendor for Rohloff in the US, the company is very enthusiastic about electric bikes. They are being cagey though and keeping their power handling promises (and accompanying warranty) at very low levels. That is one consideration. Even fairly modest mid drives will be operating outside of Rolloff's factory warranty.

I picked up the big block/Rohloff bike from my LBS yesterday after taking it back to get a slow leak in the front tire fixed. They had done the tire and tube install when they laced up the Rohloff and must have nicked the tube. By the time I got the bike home the tire was flat again and spewing white "flat fix" goo out through the rim. I was not happy. Back to the LBS today with the tire to get a new tube installed. Big block/Rohloff tests coming as soon as possible.
When you get your bike tire back, ride hard on the Rohlhoff. I don't know what your electrical setup is, but please run the motor at 3000 watts at least. Up steep hills...tow your car...whatever.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bowhunter29 » Jul 21 2016 4:35pm

Mike,

Can you give a description of the HD gear set you are working on? Will it work in the Luna frame? Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna. What kind of cost are we looking at?

I got a 3 speed Nexus based on some suggestions I received but was very disappointed when I unboxed it. The engagement between the cog and the hub looks pathetic. Its getting laced up right now but I don't expect it to last long.

Jeremy

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 21 2016 5:02pm

bowhunter29 wrote:Mike,

Can you give a description of the HD gear set you are working on? Will it work in the Luna frame? Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna. What kind of cost are we looking at?

I got a 3 speed Nexus based on some suggestions I received but was very disappointed when I unboxed it. The engagement between the cog and the hub looks pathetic. Its getting laced up right now but I don't expect it to last long.

Jeremy
The Nexus hub when I talked to a Shimano rep a year ago was the toughest thing they had, but the rep readily admitted it was nothing as robust as a Rohlhoff. Even on the Shimano site they tell you not to use it on mountain bikes. That's just human power on a mountain bike...never mind 3000 watts. I have an older Nexus 8 that's broken. The shifting assembly is destroyed. There's a sleeve that rotates around the axle shaft and several pawls that engage different rings. The sleeve and a couple of the pawls are in pieces. The hub was repaired twice back when this version was still supported by Shimano and it failed 3 times the exact same way. Since replacement parts are impossible to get, it's just a thing in a box now. My understanding is that current Nexus hubs are just minor revision changes, but the sturdiness is almost identical throughout the product line. IE: Dont expect your Nexus to last a long time in EV use.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by xnoitulos » Jul 22 2016 12:25am

Several people have run Rohloffs with Astro 3220s at up to 10kW. Other than needing to back off to shift the Rohloff handled 10k just fine.
Still want those links!! The only bikes I've seen running that much power are either hub motors, or using a fixed cog to the hub (no freehub, direct drive).
Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna.
What's the problem? I can see how derailleur setups get a bad rep if cheap, worn, or incompatible components are used and then quickly fail.

One thing to consider on the Rohloff is that the weakest link is known. Usually you run your setup and see what breaks first and in how long. In this case, it's known that it will be the protective nylon shear pins that will go before anything else. If they don't hold up I'd start looking into some kinda replacement pins, maybe a different plastic or hollow rolled aluminum pins? If you're voiding the warranty already, might as well beef up the weak link and then see if the system is up to the task, as it very well may be.

Installed the second battery in parellel today, but could only get the Lyen Mark II to creep up above 50Amps, 56A max. Not sure if I need to get a programming cable and make sure the Lyen is configured to pull it's advertised 65A? Or can the BMS be playing into the total output of the 2 packs? Any ideas :idea: :?:

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 22 2016 3:09pm

xnoitulos wrote:
Several people have run Rohloffs with Astro 3220s at up to 10kW. Other than needing to back off to shift the Rohloff handled 10k just fine.
Still want those links!! The only bikes I've seen running that much power are either hub motors, or using a fixed cog to the hub (no freehub, direct drive).
Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna.
What's the problem? I can see how derailleur setups get a bad rep if cheap, worn, or incompatible components are used and then quickly fail.

One thing to consider on the Rohloff is that the weakest link is known. Usually you run your setup and see what breaks first and in how long. In this case, it's known that it will be the protective nylon shear pins that will go before anything else. If they don't hold up I'd start looking into some kinda replacement pins, maybe a different plastic or hollow rolled aluminum pins? If you're voiding the warranty already, might as well beef up the weak link and then see if the system is up to the task, as it very well may be.

Installed the second battery in parellel today, but could only get the Lyen Mark II to creep up above 50Amps, 56A max. Not sure if I need to get a programming cable and make sure the Lyen is configured to pull it's advertised 65A? Or can the BMS be playing into the total output of the 2 packs? Any ideas :idea: :?:
Any BMS worth it's salt monitors and limits it's current load so that the BMS doesn't burn out. Whoever engineered the BMS would know how much current the mosfets can deliver and then set the max current to no more than that. You may simply be dealing with a BMS limit. I'm not a LYEN expert at all, so I don't know, but any reasonably good motor controller has settings for battery current and phase current. What are they set for in the LYEN? BTW...if you set your phase current to say 10 amps and the battery amps to 1 amp, don't expect to get 10 amps phase current. Set the battery current to whatever the maximum safe limit is for your battery pack and BMS. Then you can play with phase current a good bit.

I like the way you put that about the Rohlhoff. Those sheer pins are a deliberate "weak link" so that they break and save everything else. I bet they are made of some really tough plastic. The next upgrade to them would be hollow aluminum pins.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by izeman » Jul 23 2016 6:28am

Replacing the shear pins with a stronger material is just stupid. Sorry for the harsh word. We're not talking about using a strongee chain to withstand the higher power. We're talking about removing a safety feature that was just made for that only purpose. Rohloff knows the power/torque their hubs can take and chose the right pin.
It's like replacing a fuse with a bigger one.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by xnoitulos » Jul 23 2016 10:51pm

Replacing the shear pins with a stronger material is just stupid. Sorry for the harsh word. We're not talking about using a stronger chain to withstand the higher power. We're talking about removing a safety feature that was just made for that only purpose. Rohloff knows the power/torque their hubs can take and chose the right pin.
It's like replacing a fuse with a bigger one.
I'm suggesting that the stock pins will break at >100Nm at the rear cog. Of course, for the normal application no one would try this. I'm guessing the gears can handle a good bit more than the nylon pins will. If the pins break at 101NM, I don't think they're protecting gears that would break at 102NM. If the stock nylon pins can handle 10% more than ever intended, then they might handle 3kW with no modification. If not, then finding pins that are stronger than stock, but still break before the gears/internals would be ideal. Going to be tough to figure out without testing and breaking stuff. Maybe replace half the pins. Or replace with hardened steel pins, and slowly increase power until something breaks, and at what power level that happens. Please report these results if anybody tests it!! Already going beyond what is warrantied so...

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 24 2016 10:41pm

bowhunter29 wrote:Can you give a description of the HD gear set you are working on? Will it work in the Luna frame? Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna. What kind of cost are we looking at?
The problem with the Luna is the combination of 4" wide tires with a 135mm hub. Most fat tire bikes have at least 170mm hubs. You can only access the outboard 3 gears or so on a cassette before the chain hits the tire on the Luna.

I'm working on a system of stainless steel cogs and spacers that bolt together. We can use three cogs on the outside of the freehub and fill in the rest of the inboard space with spacers. The advantage is that we can choose the three cogs that we want. On a normal cluster you'd have an 11t on the outside. We could start with a 16t, then a 22t, then a 28t. It would be nice to have wider spacing but then shifting becomes more difficult.

I'm thinking in the range of $20 per cog and $10 per spacer. The center spline is standard Shimano. You can get the best free hub that your budget allows.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 24 2016 10:44pm

I have the Big Block/Rohloff combination back from the LBS. I need to make a tensioner for the pedal chain run and a couple of other odds and ends and then it should be ready to run. I won't be abusing the Rohloff but I will run it hard uphill.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 25 2016 4:45pm

LightningRods wrote:I have the Big Block/Rohloff combination back from the LBS. I need to make a tensioner for the pedal chain run and a couple of other odds and ends and then it should be ready to run. I won't be abusing the Rohloff but I will run it hard uphill.
Just run it at 3000+ watts up hill...that's good enough. Or I will when my Rolly gets here.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 25 2016 4:55pm

Absolutely. My neighborhood is nothing but steep hills. 3000 + watts goes without saying.

Cheekybloke is getting his Beast dialed in. He's getting some pretty exciting results from his 3 speed. The only question is whether we can get the same kind of results with an indexed "click" shifter. If using a friction shifter is the worst problem we have I think most of us could live with that.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by cheekybloke » Jul 25 2016 5:10pm

LightningRods wrote:Absolutely. My neighborhood is nothing but steep hills. 3000 + watts goes without saying.

Cheekybloke is getting his Beast dialed in. He's getting some pretty exciting results from his 3 speed. The only question is whether we can get the same kind of results with an indexed "click" shifter. If using a friction shifter is the worst problem we have I think most of us could live with that.
I switched out the 3 speed and put an 8 speed cog on and only use gear 2 to 5 at the mo, so it is indexed now.
It works a treat with the reduced reduction, pulled 65a at 18s today with no slipping at all.
temp was 43 degrees after riding at 40 to 45 mph for about 5 miles.
The primary is now 15t to 40t, the secondary is 15t to 74t
The chainring is 40t and 28t to 21t at rear although i will be unlocking the next smallest cog down to try it.
Please ignore the gaffer tape as i have to bolt on the side panel.
Also fittted my front light today, 96 watts of led for removing paint from cars.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marin » Jul 25 2016 6:30pm

LightningRods wrote:
bowhunter29 wrote:Can you give a description of the HD gear set you are working on? Will it work in the Luna frame? Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna. What kind of cost are we looking at?
The problem with the Luna is the combination of 4" wide tires with a 135mm hub. Most fat tire bikes have at least 170mm hubs. You can only access the outboard 3 gears or so on a cassette before the chain hits the tire on the Luna.

I'm working on a system of stainless steel cogs and spacers that bolt together. We can use three cogs on the outside of the freehub and fill in the rest of the inboard space with spacers. The advantage is that we can choose the three cogs that we want. On a normal cluster you'd have an 11t on the outside. We could start with a 16t, then a 22t, then a 28t. It would be nice to have wider spacing but then shifting becomes more difficult.

I'm thinking in the range of $20 per cog and $10 per spacer. The center spline is standard Shimano. You can get the best free hub that your budget allows.

This is very interesting Mike please keep us informed.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 25 2016 6:36pm

I want to emphasize that what's different now is less reduction and less overdrive in the final gearing. The motor is still putting out full power, and the same power is getting to the rear wheel. Now there is less of a battle at the chainwheel between reduction and overdrive. Also Darren's bike now makes more speed in higher tooth count rear cogs so the chain has better engagement.

In trying to maintain a 100 rpm limit at the bottom bracket you limit the amount of power that can be transmitted to the rear wheel, especially if you're trying to produce some speed. Getting the rear wheel up to 400 rpm (about 31 mph with a 26" wheel) requires a 4:1 overdrive.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by fechter » Jul 25 2016 6:38pm

cheekybloke wrote: Also fittted my front light today, 96 watts of led for removing paint from cars.
I like the light. :twisted:
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 25 2016 6:40pm

Marin wrote: This is very interesting Mike please keep us informed.
Will do. I'm coming at this from several directions at once. I'm sure that more than one of them will work.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bowhunter29 » Jul 25 2016 7:04pm

LightningRods wrote:
bowhunter29 wrote:Can you give a description of the HD gear set you are working on? Will it work in the Luna frame? Eric has mentioned a few times to me that it's difficult to get a derailleur setup to work on the Luna. What kind of cost are we looking at?
The problem with the Luna is the combination of 4" wide tires with a 135mm hub. Most fat tire bikes have at least 170mm hubs. You can only access the outboard 3 gears or so on a cassette before the chain hits the tire on the Luna.

I'm working on a system of stainless steel cogs and spacers that bolt together. We can use three cogs on the outside of the freehub and fill in the rest of the inboard space with spacers. The advantage is that we can choose the three cogs that we want. On a normal cluster you'd have an 11t on the outside. We could start with a 16t, then a 22t, then a 28t. It would be nice to have wider spacing but then shifting becomes more difficult.

I'm thinking in the range of $20 per cog and $10 per spacer. The center spline is standard Shimano. You can get the best free hub that your budget allows.
I just read where someone spread the forks to take a 170mm hub. If I could pull that off, could I get 5 gears? You know my application. I'm looking for low speed and power.

Jeremy

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 25 2016 7:13pm

bowhunter29 wrote:
I just read where someone spread the forks to take a 170mm hub. If I could pull that off, could I get 5 gears? You know my application. I'm looking for low speed and power.
I wouldn't do that myself. I'd want a frame builder to tell me that was a good idea and then have them do it. I'd go for doing a 5mm spread myself maybe, but not 35mm.

The customer who bought my Luna upgraded the wheels and tires. The new 26"x4" tire is not quite as wide as the factory tires and has a better off road tread pattern. I'd say that he picked up one gear from the stock setup.

The main advantage to five speeds would be better shifting over the same ratio range. You don't really need five speeds otherwise.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 26 2016 8:51pm

Hey Cheekybloke

where did you get that light?
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sharing is caring

Post by John Bozi » Jul 27 2016 3:04am

Im interested too cheeky.

I would like to share a bit of stuff if it may help some.

I took some advice here of sorts to try out jitsie cranks which have longer isis section to use with WI HD freewheel. sure it didnt feed all the way in and spacing away from the bike increased, this I can live with, but the isis crank bolt won't reach.

The threading is about 12mm on the kit and I guess the same for most race face types. I was going to try to use spacers with M12 but finding 1mm pitch seems impossible. So hopefully fingers crossed these unicycle ones on both unicycle.com UK and Australia will work as they twice as long...... They would probably even be better even if you aren't running these cranks and freewheel since I was using spacers to stop chain grinding down the motor mounts. They should give a bit more engagement than a few mm which I had to re-tighten every ride.

http://www.municycle.com.au/catalogue/U ... _item.html

Hope this helps Mike and the rest of the HongLiDa crew.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by cheekybloke » Jul 27 2016 4:39am

Hey Cheekybloke, where did you get that light?
The light came from e bay and I removed the 30W cree LEDs and replaced them with xhp-50 ones.
Darren

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPOT-FLOOD-Be ... ROaOTUGKDw

[moderator edit to fix quote]

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Re: sharing is caring

Post by Marin » Jul 27 2016 10:40am

John Bozi wrote:Im interested too cheeky.

I would like to share a bit of stuff if it may help some.

I took some advice here of sorts to try out jitsie cranks which have longer isis section to use with WI HD freewheel. sure it didnt feed all the way in and spacing away from the bike increased, this I can live with, but the isis crank bolt won't reach.

The threading is about 12mm on the kit and I guess the same for most race face types. I was going to try to use spacers with M12 but finding 1mm pitch seems impossible. So hopefully fingers crossed these unicycle ones on both unicycle.com UK and Australia will work as they twice as long...... They would probably even be better even if you aren't running these cranks and freewheel since I was using spacers to stop chain grinding down the motor mounts. They should give a bit more engagement than a few mm which I had to re-tighten every ride.

http://www.municycle.com.au/catalogue/U ... _item.html

Hope this helps Mike and the rest of the HongLiDa crew.
Thanks John I need some long ones too, cheers,
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

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Mines bigger than yours

Post by John Bozi » Jul 29 2016 1:12am

Welcome Marin. The shipping was almost twice the price of the bolts but they cam in less than two days today on Friday before the weekend....

I got much more confidence riding again, last night I sawed off the washer thingo so that it would reach at least enough to test....

Comparison side by side old and new one.... New one screwed perfectly and just kept on going... NO more retightening every ride :mrgreen:

Image

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Marin » Jul 29 2016 9:58am

These bolts will help as I need to shim out the right crank to help align the pedal crank on the luna to the L/R motor. I wasn't able to shim anymore as I ran out of threads to fasten the crank.
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

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