LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Ddt
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Apr 03, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ddt » Sep 28, 2017 12:24 pm

Hello gman1971

Do you know the width of the stator and the mm of the lamination of the stator?

User avatar
gman1971
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 954
Joined: Oct 17, 2015 10:17 pm

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by gman1971 » Sep 28, 2017 2:54 pm

Ddt wrote:Hello gman1971

Do you know the width of the stator and the mm of the lamination of the stator?
Please, for respect to LR's thread, any Cyclone questions you should probably be posted @ the Cyclone thread, or you can always PM me.

To answer the Q:
I don't know the information but I can probably ask some people to find out. In the meantime, although not an answer, this Youtube member owns and runs the motor on his fat eBike: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi-s0U ... Abw/videos

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

bchampig
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 48
Joined: Nov 19, 2016 12:55 pm

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Sep 30, 2017 7:07 pm

I may have pushed the small block too hard on my mountain trek last weekend. When I opened the motor to replace the halls, I noticed some burnt windings. How bad does this look to you all? Should I just hit it with some high temp laquer? I think I may need the big block.
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (163.23 KiB) Viewed 889 times

Ddt
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Apr 03, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ddt » Oct 01, 2017 10:37 am

Sorry for LR THREAT

Any new about 15kw prototype?

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 01, 2017 9:20 pm

I'm finishing up the orders from the busy season in North America and Europe. I plan to get into working with the new motors once things slow down. I'm looking at several motors.

Here is what I'm working on right now. This is an 11 gauge stainless steel sprocket with stainless steel spacers that have the Shimano freehub spline cut in their center. The assembly bolts onto a standard Shimano freehub. This is for users who want to run more power than a bicycle sprocket can handle. A 1/2" x 1/4" single run chain will run on these .1196" thick sprockets. Run with the single stage drives this 48t sprocket creates a two stage reduction. If you run a 20s battery you should have a top speed of over 40 mph.

Image

Image

Image

The number of spacers that are put on the inside and outside of the sprocket can be swapped to align the rear sprocket with the chainwheel.

For people who prefer a thread on flanged freewheel like an ACS or White Industries I also make sprockets with the five bolt freewheel pattern.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

User avatar
gman1971
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 954
Joined: Oct 17, 2015 10:17 pm

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by gman1971 » Oct 02, 2017 2:55 am

Hey Mike, could you make that in 50T to be used like the Wolftooth 49T? except in steel? I would be willing to purchase a couple of those.

Thanks.

G.
LightningRods wrote:I'm finishing up the orders from the busy season in North America and Europe. I plan to get into working with the new motors once things slow down. I'm looking at several motors.

Here is what I'm working on right now. This is an 11 gauge stainless steel sprocket with stainless steel spacers that have the Shimano freehub spline cut in their center. The assembly bolts onto a standard Shimano freehub. This is for users who want to run more power than a bicycle sprocket can handle. A 1/2" x 1/4" single run chain will run on these .1196" thick sprockets. Run with the single stage drives this 48t sprocket creates a two stage reduction. If you run a 20s battery you should have a top speed of over 40 mph.

Image

Image

Image

The number of spacers that are put on the inside and outside of the sprocket can be swapped to align the rear sprocket with the chainwheel.

For people who prefer a thread on flanged freewheel like an ACS or White Industries I also make sprockets with the five bolt freewheel pattern.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

User avatar
izeman
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4508
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 8:25 am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by izeman » Oct 02, 2017 5:05 am

nice parts mike, but i would suggest using bolts instead of screws to minimize play and have an more exact fit. screws are not made to transfer shearing force.

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 02, 2017 7:03 am

Excellent suggestion. These are grade 1O.9 M5 socket flat head bolts.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

User avatar
izeman
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4508
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 8:25 am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by izeman » Oct 02, 2017 8:00 am

LightningRods wrote:Excellent suggestion. These are grade 1O.9 M5 socket flat head bolts.
the screws probably will hold just fine. for a prototype it's ok. if you go in "mass" production you still can change it :)
i'd change it to the type of bolts they use on the crank to fix the gears. bolts just a tiny bit shorter than the parts they need to clamp, an inner thread and flat head screws.

User avatar
speedmd
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2762
Joined: Nov 14, 2012 12:16 pm
Location: new england

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by speedmd » Oct 02, 2017 9:08 am

All you need is a few dowel pins that go through the entire stack minus the furthest inner plate which can have just a c-bore. The cassette outer locking nut can keep them in place. Keep the toys coming! cheers

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 02, 2017 9:37 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm glad that there is some interest in this design.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

User avatar
izeman
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4508
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 8:25 am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by izeman » Oct 02, 2017 11:50 am

LightningRods wrote:Thanks for the suggestions. I'm glad that there is some interest in this design.
sure. this is great. while looking at the pictures again i noticed that it would make sense to change the single discs for a single thick one. why? as the slots don't line up exactly, they won't evenly put stress on the hub.

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 02, 2017 1:51 pm

The problem is the manufacturing process. How are you going to cut a perfectly straight splined bore that's 25mm deep? Laser or water jet is not straight or clean at that depth. Plus the stacked spacers allow side to side alignment with the chainwheel.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

User avatar
speedmd
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2762
Joined: Nov 14, 2012 12:16 pm
Location: new england

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by speedmd » Oct 02, 2017 1:58 pm

You could extrude it. You would still need to broach it if you wanted a precise fit. Your design is a perfect part for a stamping. They could knock them out for pennies.

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 02, 2017 9:27 pm

That's true. I always expect the tooling on broaching and extruding to be prohibitive. Maybe it's not. I'll see what I can find out.

I also thought about sand casting but I'm not sure the spline would be accurate enough. Die casting would be good but I know the dies are pricey.

I'm waffling on whether the spacers need to be stainless steel or not. Stainless laser cuts better than aluminum and is stronger but heavier and harder to countersink for the flatheads. There is so much surface area I'm thinking that aluminum is probably strong enough.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

ions82
100 W
100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM (USA)

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ions82 » Oct 02, 2017 10:33 pm

LightningRods wrote:That's true. I always expect the tooling on broaching and extruding to be prohibitive. Maybe it's not. I'll see what I can find out.

I also thought about sand casting but I'm not sure the spline would be accurate enough. Die casting would be good but I know the dies are pricey.

I'm waffling on whether the spacers need to be stainless steel or not. Stainless laser cuts better than aluminum and is stronger but heavier and harder to countersink for the flatheads. There is so much surface area I'm thinking that aluminum is probably strong enough.
I also think aluminum would be strong enough since there is a stack of spacers all bolted together. If you go with Al, you might want to get them anodized in case the
end user puts them on a bare aluminum cassette body (as to prevent galling of like materials.) Then again, a thin layer of grease upon install would probably work just as well. Maybe cut the spacers out of 7075. That's some strong stuff.

If one were using a hub with a steel cassette body, do you think that the cog with just regular (round ID) spacers being pressed by the lock ring would be sufficient? Or, would the force of the drive system just spin the cog on the cassette body (shearing either the cog teeth or the CB)?

User avatar
LightningRods
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2052
Joined: Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Western Oregon, USA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 02, 2017 10:47 pm

I'm sure that other people will have different opinions but I'd like to spread the force that the sprocket places on the freehub over the widest possible area. I've seen steel sprockets cut into steel freehubs before. And that's with 8 or more thin sprockets all sharing the load. One sprocket would be even more prone to mauling the splines on the freehub.

I found an aluminum extrusion company that looks pretty great. I'm going to contact them and see what the price point would be on going with anodized, extruded aluminum.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

User avatar
speedmd
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2762
Joined: Nov 14, 2012 12:16 pm
Location: new england

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by speedmd » Oct 02, 2017 11:57 pm

You would buy lengths of raw custom extrusion. 6061T6 or T651. Die could run 1 -1.5K with a initial trial run of few pounds of material. The variability in extrusion would prevent you from having a good snug reliable fit on the spline unfortunately unless you get real lucky on it. You would need to saw it, or part it on a lathe into shims of what ever thickness you wish, machine any details, Broach the center, de-burr - tumble them and then anodize them. You could look for stock thick walled tube extrusions shapes that you could machine- broach center detail into. Either way the custom center broach - op will be pricey. You could get a slightly sloppy but workable fit with the raw extrusion if you allow for a bit of clearance (.008 -.012 inches). My experience with them, if shooting for anything within .005 on this size part, will get into tight fit issues over a run of product in most cases.

If you go with thin shims only, you could punch them out also. Punching is reasonably good at holding dimensions from some vendors so you may be able to eliminate broaching on the thinner shims. Only worry is the burr on the far side of the punch direction, which may be a stacking concern and need additional finishing.

ScooterMan101
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1262
Joined: Oct 06, 2012 4:45 pm
Location: South of San Jose, California.

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 03, 2017 4:55 am

Mike,

With all the work and cost that would be needed to make those parts work with a shimano freehub body,

Perhaps just design your own freehub body/ with help of others here on E.S. if need be , to made out of steel , with larger splines / larger spline inerface with the spacers.

You might not even then need spacers, design the parts so as to not have to have all those individual spacers ?

Wouldn't that be much stronger anyway ?

Using the working part of the Shimano Freehub , just making / designing your own outer body.

( You could even go as far as to make a stronger set of cogs as well in the future so that the more powerful motors can still use multiple
cogs on the back , for those of us that live in areas of hills and even mountains that have multiple degrees of slope.

User avatar
madin88
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2485
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by madin88 » Oct 03, 2017 7:57 am

bchampig wrote:I may have pushed the small block too hard on my mountain trek last weekend. When I opened the motor to replace the halls, I noticed some burnt windings. How bad does this look to you all? Should I just hit it with some high temp laquer? I think I may need the big block.
image.jpeg
don't worry, thats the star termination point of the windings :lol:

User avatar
zlagger
100 W
100 W
Posts: 130
Joined: Sep 28, 2012 9:06 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by zlagger » Oct 06, 2017 1:00 am

Hey Mike, I can machine you some. Send me a drawing of what you want.
LightningRods wrote:The problem is the manufacturing process. How are you going to cut a perfectly straight splined bore that's 25mm deep? Laser or water jet is not straight or clean at that depth. Plus the stacked spacers allow side to side alignment with the chainwheel.

User avatar
Ecyclist
100 W
100 W
Posts: 251
Joined: Apr 01, 2016 10:53 pm
Location: San Diego, California

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 06, 2017 9:45 am

izeman wrote:nice parts mike, but i would suggest using bolts instead of screws to minimize play and have an more exact fit. screws are not made to transfer shearing force.
But these are bolts. Maybe you mean SHOULDER BOLTS.
Like these.
Attachments
Shoulder Bolt.jpg
Shoulder Bolt.jpg (8.52 KiB) Viewed 566 times

User avatar
izeman
10 GW
10 GW
Posts: 4508
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 8:25 am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by izeman » Oct 06, 2017 11:24 am

whatever you call them in english. in german a bolt has no thread. a screw does.
and no i didn't think about shoulder bolts, but it would work as well of course.
i was talking about a unthreaded bolt on the outside but with an inner thread. that way you have a solid surface over the whole distance that can transfer shear forces.

User avatar
Ecyclist
100 W
100 W
Posts: 251
Joined: Apr 01, 2016 10:53 pm
Location: San Diego, California

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Ecyclist » Oct 06, 2017 9:09 pm

izeman wrote:whatever you call them in english. in german a bolt has no thread. a screw does.
and no i didn't think about shoulder bolts, but it would work as well of course.
i was talking about a unthreaded bolt on the outside but with an inner thread. that way you have a solid surface over the whole distance that can transfer shear forces.
In that case you probably talking about Press-Fit Female Round Standoffs.
Like this: :D
Attachments
Captive-female-threaded-round-standoffs-special-manufacturer[1].jpg
Captive-female-threaded-round-standoffs-special-manufacturer[1].jpg (223.99 KiB) Viewed 537 times

User avatar
John Bozi
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1909
Joined: Apr 09, 2013 1:46 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

sprok love

Post by John Bozi » Oct 07, 2017 2:12 am

guys his sprocket and spacers are built tougher than any off the shelf bicycle component could ever withstand.

dt swiss is the toughest I found and ran and it also shat itself at the end. If I had to run the system again I still would run dt swiss for a fw. dont think there is tougher.

for those spacers if its stainless you want to cut the weight seriously... I ran stuff identical to Mike's design. If I had to get it recut it would be much more agressive for ss.

Its ridiculously tough and heavy.

If anyone wants my designs let me know.... pm

always trying to help the com.
Attachments
bolt.jpg
bolt.jpg (62.54 KiB) Viewed 518 times
parallel tighter aggressive contours.jpg
(50.85 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
splined iso disc hole 104 bcd bash guide.JPG
splined iso disc hole 104 bcd bash guide.JPG (30 KiB) Viewed 518 times

Post Reply