LightningRods mid drive kit

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Alex07 » Nov 28, 2017 5:05 am

Nice build, but yeah as pointed out above that is a huge loss of ground clearance under the bike ? I mean it sits a lot lower then the bottom of the chainring ? and I know some people have issues already with the chainring height clearance let alone below that ??

Also with the motor being single speed vs mid drive, for this same size motor what is the difference in power handling ability ? I am guessing you could peak and get a lot more power out of the same motor mounted on the chainrings as it would spin more often at higher rpm that cools itself down and is more efficient rpm, but also it would have time to cool down on gear changes. whereas this motor is flat out in 1 gear so it would perform more like a hub motor right and less like a mid drive performance ? But yeah this is better than a hub which also has the weight in the wheel issues....

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Nov 28, 2017 9:58 am

People who are constantly dragging over rocks and other obstacles would probably want to run something else.

This design can run a lot more power than a multiple speed mid drive. I mostly build the multiple speed drives. They're good through bicycle gears up to about 3000 watts. Even on front of bike mid drives I make single speed drivelines for people who want to run more power. At a certain power level you don't need multiple gears any longer and they're not very reliable or durable. This 219 racing kart chain is good to at least 20 horsepower.

This type of drive is a bridge between mid drives and hub motors. It's mechanically simpler than a regular mid drive and will run more power. It's overall lighter than a comparably powerful hub motor, has that weight in a much better spot on the bike, and runs a lot cooler than hubs do. The owner of this bike is also owner of PowerVelocity and builds controllers. He was used to the 5000 watt hub motor previously installed on the bike getting hot during hard runs. He ran this swingarm drive hard and- his 18 FET controller got hot first. He also said that the bike is now pulling harder while drawing less amps.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 28, 2017 11:04 am

By having the Frame Maker , make a slightly longer swing arm, you can then put the motor up on top of the swing arm.

You do not have to have it much longer, you can put the motor where/slightly a few cm's/inches back of where the shock , at this time, mounts there . Make a bracket that goes up both sides of the motor, then puts the shock on top of the motor or slightly back of the center of the motor. this will also have the shock at an angle that is more often seen on bikes anyway.
By making a bracket for the shock, you could also custom that design that bracket ( a few different ones for different shocks ) to make the frame be able to use different travel shocks,
like the more common 130-150 mm travel air , air/coil over shocks .
( would really like to see the Beta frame, and the Vector Light Frame use more common 150 mm travel front and rear suspension )

This would take care of the concerns people have of having a motor sitting so low.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Nov 28, 2017 11:32 am

Enduro isn't going to do anything differently than they're doing it. Customization is not what the Chinese do. They grind out huge volumes of inexpensive product.

I have been talking with Vad at PowerVelocity about making a custom alloy swing arm to fit the Enduro frame box. Another issue is that we'd like to run belt drive and wider tires. There is no room in the standard Enduro swingarm for belt drive or a tire much wider than 2.75". Having the motor on top would be cool. I'll be thinking about that while I'm doodling the swingarm.

Thanks for the suggestions.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 29, 2017 10:55 am

Mike,

When designing a new / custom rear swing arm the Motorcycle Industry has a better axle holding design than bicycles.

Looking at a Motorcycle Swing Arm we see that it has blocks that are around the axle , that can slide back and forward , and adjusting nut and bolt on the back, in order to tension the chain just right.

Doing this on a Bicycle Swing Arm you also have two other advantages over the slotted dropout currently used on Bicycles.

1) You can now , by using a different a block , you can use a rear wheel with 9mm QR axles , 12 mm Hub Motor Axles , 10 mm Hub Motor Axles, and even what is becoming more common ... 12 mm Through Axle Wheels or even a Motorcycle or Scooter Wheel.

2) You can now also use any size wheel you want , want to go up Steep Mountains ? , adjust the Wheel/Axle towards the front and use a 24 inch Wheel.
Slide the Blocks back for 26 inch 27.5 inch and 29 er wheels bicycle wheels , as well as a Motorcycle / Scooter Rim
All by having a specific block for your wheel type.

3) You can now also adjust the wheel base of the Bike for your type of riding.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Nov 29, 2017 1:05 pm

I've like the blocks idea. I've already added a horizontal dropout to the Enduro and chain tugs to both the Qulbix and Enduro. It would be good to upgrade the strength of the tugs and make them more motorcycle duty. There are specific high stress areas that are worth going full on motorcycle strong. This is one of them.

I will probably provide 10mm holes in the blocks with plenty of meat around the hole to bore to 12mm. Making the dropout slot 12mm to accommodate the larger axle is a good idea. I like the adjuster blocks I've seen that slide in recesses in the swingarm dropout.

I don't think that having overly long dropout slots is a good idea. A couple of inches is plenty. You can run a small wheel if you want and just have more space at the front.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 21, 2017 1:02 pm

LightningRods wrote:
Nov 26, 2017 5:09 pm
The single stage swingarm drive for Enduro electric bikes is completed. 6000 watts of Big Block power through 8:1 #219 reduction.
Hi,
Any chance I can get you to make me a few custom parts? I PM'd you as well.

1. Some time back I asked you to make me a couple of KART adapters with 3 bolt holes in the center. Can you make me 4 of those?

2. I was looking at your single stage enduro bike. Can you mate that 6 bolt pattern to the KART adapter outer bolt pattern? I would like 4 of that standard brake rotor bolt pattern to KART 6 bolt pattern.

3. In the past, I have asked you to make me driver sprocket adapters without inner keyways and only the outer keyway. Can you make me 4 of those? Is it possible to get this also in single 6" lengths or possibly longer? Sometimes the shorter adapter is too short and I need to shift the driver sprocket in or out a little. A longer section of this adapter would be helpful in that regard.

4. I will be ordering 2 of the freewheel to KART adapters that have the 5 bolt pattern.

5. What are you charging for your custom hubs like what is on the enduro? I need 3 of those. If getting them pre-strung with wheels is a better option for you, that's fine too.

Thanks

I'm preparing to build a 3 wheel drive recumbent monster trike in the spring. Each wheel will have an independent controller and motor. I intend to use 3 heavily modded Power Velocity 12 fet controllers and 3 Alien Power C80100 outrunners. The trike will be a reinforced KMX frame with added suspension provided by Adam333. There will be a clutch mechanism that allows the 2 front wheels to disconnect from the motors so that when I don't need/want "balls to the wall" power, I can run from the back wheel only from a single motor. There will be a switching system so the front 2 controllers can be disabled separate from the rear wheel controller. A nano with some custom written software (written by me) in it will control the 3 throttle inputs to the controllers. The nano will detect the position of the steering mechanism so that all 3 motors can track around their individual arcs and adjust throttle accordingly. The software will also include code for detecting wheel spin so that both front wheel motors in straight line acceleration can pull equally. I will be using a hall signal to detect each motors RPM and passing those 3 signals to the nano. There are a variety of position sensors on the market that will serve well for detecting steering angle. My goal is to run at 24S/98.4 volts, top out at 70mph or more, have a 0-60 mph time in less than 5 seconds and have 100 miles of range. I will be building a pack or multiple packs out of the newly released 21700 cells. I've already purchased 40 samsung INR21700's to evaluate. They will arrive next week. If they do what I think they will do, then I'll be buying quite a few more of them...something like 240-300 more. There will be a 3 phones mounted on a central console for managing the motor controllers and displaying individual controller status. Power Velocity has done some really awesome work in this department! By far, this will be my most costly, strongest, fastest and most complex build. A thread will come along soon for the build-out. I expect to spend something like $5000 in various parts and components. It should be fun!
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Dec 21, 2017 4:59 pm

Hi Richard,

My previous laser cutting vendor took exception to all of the one-off and very short run parts that I was making for you and others and let me know that my business was "not within the scope of their business". In other words, they fired me as a customer. All they had told me in the past was that they had a $500 minimum order, which I always exceeded. There is file prep and paperwork associated with every part. They got tired of not making any money.

My new laser vendor is in California. They are twice as expensive and do consistently better work. If I order fewer than ten of each part the price per part goes up so that I'm paying about the same for four parts as I would for ten. But sure, I'll go through that process. The prices are not going to be anything like what I was able to do for you previously. The five bolt freewheel to kart sprocket adapter is a standard part that I have big batches made of. That part is $20 off the shelf.

Combining the centers from one part with the perimeter of another part is simple. So that's not a problem.

The anodized billet hubs are $275 each including Japanese bearings and 10mm 4130 chrome moly axle. There are two six bolt disc brake pattern mounting flanges on the left side. You need a special profile on the inner sprocket mounting to pass through the milled cut outs on the disc rotor flange. It would not be hard to swap this internal pattern onto a different tooth count sprocket. A smaller sprocket might interfere with the brake caliper in ways that I can't anticipate. The big 96t on the Qulbix and EEB swing arm kits sits outside of the caliper.

Your build does sound interesting- and complicated. Vad at Power Velocity is indeed doing some great work with controllers. His battery packs are still 18650 based but they put out the power. He just built a 100v 80a pack for one of my customers. Power wheelies and a 50 mph + top speed with one gear.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 25, 2017 10:47 pm

LightningRods wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 4:59 pm
Hi Richard,

My previous laser cutting vendor took exception to all of the one-off and very short run parts that I was making for you and others and let me know that my business was "not within the scope of their business". In other words, they fired me as a customer. All they had told me in the past was that they had a $500 minimum order, which I always exceeded. There is file prep and paperwork associated with every part. They got tired of not making any money.

My new laser vendor is in California. They are twice as expensive and do consistently better work. If I order fewer than ten of each part the price per part goes up so that I'm paying about the same for four parts as I would for ten. But sure, I'll go through that process. The prices are not going to be anything like what I was able to do for you previously. The five bolt freewheel to kart sprocket adapter is a standard part that I have big batches made of. That part is $20 off the shelf.

Combining the centers from one part with the perimeter of another part is simple. So that's not a problem.

The anodized billet hubs are $275 each including Japanese bearings and 10mm 4130 chrome moly axle. There are two six bolt disc brake pattern mounting flanges on the left side. You need a special profile on the inner sprocket mounting to pass through the milled cut outs on the disc rotor flange. It would not be hard to swap this internal pattern onto a different tooth count sprocket. A smaller sprocket might interfere with the brake caliper in ways that I can't anticipate. The big 96t on the Qulbix and EEB swing arm kits sits outside of the caliper.

Your build does sound interesting- and complicated. Vad at Power Velocity is indeed doing some great work with controllers. His battery packs are still 18650 based but they put out the power. He just built a 100v 80a pack for one of my customers. Power wheelies and a 50 mph + top speed with one gear.
Was your laser cutter the reason why you stopped responding to me? OK...so you need minimums of 10 each? Can you PM me please so we are talking off of the thread? 10 each is not out of the realm of possibility.

I'll be messing with 21700's soon. I'll be building a pack out of them. I have 40 samsung INR21700's coming. I expect to see them next week. Once I'm sure this is going to be the right cell for my purposes, I'll buy another 200-300 for the real pack.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by sparkz » Dec 26, 2017 9:59 pm

I've been out of commission, as far as ebikes are concerned, for a couple of years. In returning to this thread, I am amazed at the progress made on the LR mid-drive! It's almost a new kit, and it is gorgeous! I got one of the first Big Block kits for my fat bike, but have not been able to install it (long story.) Where do I start? With all the changes/mods, I feel I need to start planning all over again.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Dec 26, 2017 10:11 pm

I’ve been pretty relentless about improving my mid drive. If you’ve had problems with your original drive I’ll cut you deep discounts on new parts to get you set up.

I’ve always done the best work that I could. I’ve learned a lot in four years.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by sparkz » Dec 27, 2017 4:52 pm

Thank, LR, but I don't have any problems with my kit. Health reasons kept me out of the game for the last few years. In catching up with the thread, I was amazed at the progress you have made on the kit. I just need to re-think what I was going to do with the kit and my fat bike. With your permission, may I send you a PM with what I have and what my thoughts were on my build? I don't want to hijack the thread.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Dec 27, 2017 5:52 pm

PM away! Glad you’re feeling better.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 31, 2017 3:59 pm

Lightning Rods motoped kit ? ..

I think i read on fb somewhere that lightning rods was interested in building a motoped mid drive motor kit and possibly collaborating with power velocity, presumably for the controller and battery??

any progress on that, do you have a motoped frame yet for R&D??

I have an extra motoped roller that I got back during their kickstarter campaign that I have been wanting to electrify ever since..

I would love to use a lightning rods motor kit on my motoped, if such an animal exists or may be in the works..

If a lightning rods motoped kit is not yet in the works, then maybe I could help jump start that project by supplying a motoped frame kit or roller that I have extra (i also have two other motopeds but they are currently running on ice :oops: )..

Anyone else interested ?? if the price is right we may be able to sell a few of these kits on the motoped forum as well ???

unfortunately, I personally have a very limited budget for this build atm (spent all my money on motopeds).. but I could barter with a motoped frame kit, complete motoped roller (no engine), or I could just get in line to buy the kit once available..

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Dec 31, 2017 7:15 pm

I am still interested in doing a drive for the Motoped. I grew up riding dirt bikes and racing motocross and so I have a soft spot (in my head) for that type of bike. There are a lot of good things about the Motoped, the best of which for me is the reduction jackshaft in the swingarm pivot. The final drive chain geometry is excellent.

Because the Motoped is a fairly heavy motorcycle type backbone frame I’d want to kick the power up substantially on that build. I have been talking to Vad at Power Velocity about building a killer Motoped. He has a monster 200 amp 24 FET sine wave controller and 100v battery packs that will put out 200 amps. So yes, 20kW. I also happen to have a new motor that is supposed to be good for that level of power, and beyond.

I’ll talk to Vad and see what his level of enthusiasm is for actually doing this. The big hurdle is the battery pack. It’s going to be expensive. The rest of it shouldn’t be too bad. Having a roller frame available is a big step forward.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bionicon » Jan 01, 2018 10:49 am

Picture of the new motor??? :D

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 01, 2018 12:25 pm

I’m not ready to show the motor yet. Stay tuned.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 01, 2018 12:55 pm

Lightning Rods,

the bigger (mega block, super stock?) motor sounds awesome!

but for my personal build goals I'm more interested in staying within the moped or pitbike power level of the stock bike.. a lightning rods big block kit should easily meet and exceed the performance of the stock engine options of 49cc or 125cc which only produce around 2 to 8hp and 2 to 6 ft pounds of torque..

an electric motorcycle is unfortunately beyond my financial means, not to mention the extra weight, complexity, and legality (annual registration, inspection, insurance, taxes)..

but it could work out where you get to keep the motoped roller for further product developments and more powerful or different builds (and to ride the bike;)..

also, since motoped uses the honda e22 motor mount standard widely used in the pitbike and mini bike industry, the lightning rods kit could potentially be fitted to a wide variety of pitbikes on the market or sitting in many garages just waiting to be electrified.. imagine the possibilities, endless..

LightningRods wrote:
Dec 31, 2017 7:15 pm
I am still interested in doing a drive for the Motoped. I grew up riding dirt bikes and racing motocross and so I have a soft spot (in my head) for that type of bike. There are a lot of good things about the Motoped, the best of which for me is the reduction jackshaft in the swingarm pivot. The final drive chain geometry is excellent.

Because the Motoped is a fairly heavy motorcycle type backbone frame I’d want to kick the power up substantially on that build. I have been talking to Vad at Power Velocity about building a killer Motoped. He has a monster 200 amp 24 FET sine wave controller and 100v battery packs that will put out 200 amps. So yes, 20kW. I also happen to have a new motor that is supposed to be good for that level of power, and beyond.

I’ll talk to Vad and see what his level of enthusiasm is for actually doing this. The big hurdle is the battery pack. It’s going to be expensive. The rest of it shouldn’t be too bad. Having a roller frame available is a big step forward.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 01, 2018 2:04 pm

The Big Block is easily capable of 8 horsepower. The bike would be fun to ride. The battery for even the Big Block is well beyond the typical mid drive battery. You should have at least 60 amps of peak current, with 80 being preferable.

I’m eyeballing the new motors and the old Honglida type and trying to come up with a swappable mount system that will allow me to use many of the same parts for both. The new motor is about the same size and weight as the Big Block. Just the mounting points are different.

I get your point about the Honda motor mounts. Having the Motoped mounts be somewhat universal never occurred to me. I had a Trail 70 as one of my first bikes. I would LOVE to have an electric version of that bike.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 07, 2018 4:49 pm

Just thought I'd chime in on the clearance of the big block middrive on EEB frame that I am currently running.
Never thought of it being an issue until I read some comments here. I have pedals on the bike which go lower to the ground compared to where the motor is mounted. So, if anything creates the clearance issues, that would be the pedals first and I need to be going over big logs of wood to experience that. Otherwise, running even on hills offroad, I have zero issues with the middrive being there.

On a slightly different subject, chain noise was my initial pet peeve, primarily because of being spoiled by quietness of a hub motor. But that went away with the first couple hours of riding it. At speeds above 30 mph, the wind noise is louder anyway, so I can't really hear the chain when going fast. At lower speeds, I'd prefer a belt drive, to be stealthier and not draw much attention. I expected people around to be bothered from the chain noise, but I am getting only thumbs up so far. This also helps with alerting that I am approaching from behind.

Based on my initial estimates, the current middrive setup is at least 15% more efficient compared to the hub motor. That makes sense as the motor spins at higher RPMs where it's more efficient. I am seeing less amps being pulled overall from the middrive for the same amount of power and speed compared to the hub motor I had before.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 07, 2018 6:30 pm

Thanks for checking in, Vad. I’m glad that the drive chain quieted down with some break in. Mine is pretty quiet so I was perplexed as to why yours was making noise.

I think that the higher efficiency you’re seeing with the swingarm drive is part of the same equation that causes my motors to run cooler than hub motors do. True these motors shed heat better with the windings in the motor case instead of buried at the motors core. But I think there is less thermal waste to begin with. That savings shows up in cooler running and better efficiency.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bullfrog » Jan 07, 2018 9:03 pm

Just found this topic...to be honest, I am too lazy to go back and read all 194 pages, can somebody summarize regarding two questions?

1. How does the Cyclone compare to the LIghtning Rod Small Block (LRSB) as far as performance and reliability?
I can see the price differences and obviously the LRSB is more money. I am currently running a BBSHD and just want more power...tried to buy a Ludicrous controller from Luna but they won't sell me one because I haven't spent enough money with them. I understand it is a business decision and nothing personal. So now I need to make an engineering decision and decide which option to go with...Cyclone, LRSB, or stick with my BBSHD and run an external controller.

2. If I run a 3 speed Sturmey Archer rear hub (CS-RK3), how does it hold up with the Cyclone or the LRSB?
Question is assuming I take care of the hub, don't shift under power, keep it lubed, etc. The reason I want to run the CS-RK3 is I can run a single cog and get my chain line perfect. It is set up for a cassette but I plan to use a single speed conversion and one cog. Long story on the chain line but this will allow me to get it straight.

My sincere thanks for a summary :) .

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 07, 2018 9:16 pm

My small block motor and the Cyclone 3000 are very comparable motors. The main difference is that the Cyclone has a planetary gearbox attached to it. If you want a planetary gearbox and you’re on a budget, go with the Cyclone. If you want a motor that is 30mm narrower, weighs 4 lbs less, offers a choice of 219 kart or GT belt primary drive with a huge range of reduction ratios, and is attached to a mid drive hand made in the USA, buy my drive.

The Sturmey-Archer is going to be marginal if you push either of these motors to the 3000 watts that they are capable of. If you run at 1500 watts and baby it, it might survive. But then you’re hobbling the bigger motors down to the level of the Bafang. The S-A is always going to be the limitation with either of these motors.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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Bullfrog
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 32
Joined: Apr 08, 2017 10:37 am

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bullfrog » Jan 08, 2018 11:57 am

Let's see USA and belt....hmmmm I like. I ran belts instead of chains when racing karts a few years back (about 12 horsepower)...they worked great, required less maintenance than a chain, and are quieter than a chain. That is one thing that really attracted me to the Lightning Rod...of course made in the USA is always a good thing :).

A couple more questions...

A. What is the overall reduction between the motor and the output shaft of the Lightning Rod Small Block and the Cyclone (if you know it)?

B. Where can I buy the lightning rod kits?

Powervelocity.com
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 645
Joined: Mar 27, 2015 2:15 pm
Location: California
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 08, 2018 1:25 pm

Making this a one stage belt drive would be perfect in my book, but I understand the challenges retrofitting a wider belt on existing frames. Keeping it very simple, with as few gears as possible.

A custom swingarm could be the way to go. Actually, a custom swingarm with a belt drive compatible with most frames is what I am thinking.

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