LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby waynebergman » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:51 pm

What I found very cool on the crossbreak style of pedal assist to the mid drive was the pedal assist went to the FW on the left side of the motor shaft. 2 things cool about this was .......

1-no stress on this free wheel as it was only taking the pedal assist duties of the human power assist before it added to the motors power.

2-the second really cool thing with this cross break style design is you were giving your self super tall gearing with smaller sprockets going in on the left side with the short chain etc. It does work so well with the only down side being that if its geared so you can keep up a nice cadence on the pedal assist for the faster end of the motors input you do end up with a slightly taller than idea for starting out at slow RPM's or putting along at low revs for trials style riding up hills.

I realize this type of pedal assist is not in the cards for the LR kit at this time but I wanted to mention this in case it may help in any design ideas you come up with for the ultimate way to work your pedal assist ideas into your system. I also realize for the high power folks out there the whole pedal assist is mostly a way to look like a bicycle and many don't really care about the pedal assist being super dialed in but I think there are many good reasons for having this part of the system working as good as it can.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:20 pm

I don't know if a prerequisite of the "Crossbreak Style" jackshaft is that it be in front of the BB. That's my main reservation about the design. You end up with a long chain run that has to run over and under the BB. This works okay on a hardtail but not well at all on a full suspension bike. On a full suspension bike you want the drive sprocket as close to the swingarm pivot as possible.

But other than the location, yes that's the idea. I had a mini bike back in the late '60s that had a jackshaft setup very much like this. It's not a new idea.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby turbo1889 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:34 pm

Also, for those that want to go fast and still be able to pedal along with the motor another variable you can add in is two speed over-driving crank gear boxes. The highest ratio one I'm know of has gears of 100% and 160% which means that if you bolted up a normal large size output chain-ring on it instead of the smaller sized chain-wheel it comes with then you could have gears and a top speed that were a full 60% higher then normal and still be able to pedal along with the motor at a reasonable pedal cadence.
Last edited by turbo1889 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:48 pm

These Patterson 2 speed BB transmissions are cool but won't work with a mid drive that needs to drive through the BB. They work fine with hub motors, StokeMonkeys and they'd work great with a jackshaft that the BB crankset drives rather than is driven by.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:56 am

Here is the Crossbreak jackshaft position as I know it:

Image

This is a pretty slick installation but note that the bike is a hardtail. On full suspension bikes the area around the BB is full of rear suspension gubbins. It's hard to get a clear shot at the rear sprocket. Also having the chain pivoting from an arm about twice as long as the swingarm would cause serious chain tension variances.

Here is the M-drive from the Urban Commuter Store:

Image

I'm interested in this design for the way that power from the pedals comes back from a standard BB on the right and merges with the power from the motor coming in from the left. By having the motor power come in after the BB we get the following advantages:
1) No limited availability BB and crank arm parts in order to be able to include a freewheel there.
2) No electric motor power going through the BB, something that it was not designed for.
3) No need to reduce the motor rpm 30x or more to allow for the 4x overdrive from the pedals.
4) Creates an opportunity for two stage overdrive of the pedal power, permitting smaller front and larger rear sprockets with higher speed.
5) Jackshaft output to the rear wheel can be located on the swingarm pivot, eliminating chain tension variances and the need for idlers.

If I had a fat R&D budget to develop this I'd include a 4 speed constant mesh transmission in the package. Pedal and motor power would join at the front input shaft of the four speed, run through the gears together, and output from a sprocket on the swing arm pivot. I'm aware that this would probably be much more motorcycle than bicycle and not a ton o' fun to pedal without motor power. There are plenty of power assisted bicycles on the market. I'm interested in building human/electric hybrid light motorcycles. Lucky for me, it seems like a lot of you are interested in buying them. :D
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby r3volved » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:29 am

I've thought a lot about that second design. Having the jack shaft in the pivot of rear swing arm. Three sprockets - freewheel from motor, freewheel from chainring and then solid drive to rear.
Could use the geared chainring setup for cadence and avoid the motor-through-chainring setup which I think is the next step for this type of system. Just have to get that motor input off the chainring...

This would probably require a bit of a longer wheelbase if locating the jack shaft more towards the rear of the bb.

The cross break style is interesting but seems sketchy to me being in front of the bb
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:35 am

Here's a graphic of crossbreaks innovation. In a LightningRods variation, the BB connects to a jackshaft, and the motor is slightly above it? (or in the triangle?). By including a jackshaft, the additional sprockets allow a wide selection of motor Kv's and voltages. I consider this idea the optimum hardtail fat-bike configuration. Also, since the BB uses a freewheel at the jackshaft, the crankset is completely conventional, plus the freewheel can later be upgraded to a completely silent CSK-P bearing...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45245&start=550#p766678
Image
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:42 am

r3volved wrote:I've thought a lot about that second design. Having the jack shaft in the pivot of rear swing arm. Three sprockets - freewheel from motor, freewheel from chainring and then solid drive to rear.
Could use the geared chainring setup for cadence and avoid the motor-through-chainring setup which I think is the next step for this type of system. Just have to get that motor input off the chainring...

This would probably require a bit of a longer wheelbase if locating the jack shaft more towards the rear of the bb.

The cross break style is interesting but seems sketchy to me being in front of the bb


If you sit down and try to design a mid drive around existing bike frames that doesn't run through the BB you quickly learn how tough that is. If it's a full suspension bike it becomes almost impossible to avoid using the BB. No space to put anything and bad geometry is all you see. The Crossbreak design is a good solution for certain bikes.

The two speed chainring could be handy if you're dealing with a high voltage system. It's really difficult to ever pair up our puny 100 rpm with a 6,000 or more rpm motor. For 36v or 48v and lower kVs I think a single speed pedal drive would be fine.

The longer wheelbase would create more room for drive parts behind the BB and also make the bike more enjoyable to ride with a lot of power on board. If you ever read about MotoMoto's Santa Cruz mid drive with an Astro 3220, he couldn't keep the front end on the ground during hard acceleration. Wheelies are fun when you want them and not fun when you don't.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:26 pm

It's a great setup for a hardtail bike.

We can accomplish exactly the same thing with the jackshaft behind the BB instead of in front of it. All we need is the space to mount it. I like the idea of a shorter chain run, even on a hardtail.

Everything 'in the V' would be best if there were room. It's going to take a custom frame to completely optimize all of this.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby Dani » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:23 pm

Hi everybody,

I'm a long time lurker on this project, though did register only today. LightningRods you did a really good job over here, love it. It's hard to imagine you managed to improve, build and assamble any of this - props where props are due. 8)
a little bit offtopic: I lost track on the threads.. I'm looking for a source to order the motor only ("small block") and i know someone posted somewhere the dimensions. I'd like to build a kit myself, one day. Could any of you point me in the right direction?

PS: If your kit will sell as low as 500$ (exluding assembly, I'd love to assemble it myself!) I'll skip my plans and order right away.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:40 pm

Dani wrote:I'm looking for a source to order the motor only ("small block")

PS: If your kit will sell as low as 500$ (exluding assembly, I'd love to assemble it myself!) I'll skip my plans and order right away.


You can buy the small block motor from Conhismotor or GNG for around $250.

There are a lot of variations of the small block floating around on the Chinese eBay or "TaoBao". If you can get the right one they are about $80 there. Virtually all of these motors have a helical gear output shaft for the tricycles they were meant for.

I sell the motor alone for $125. I will machine the output shaft to 12mm with a 4mm keyway for $50.

Unfortunately there is no way that I can produce my kit in the US for $500. You have to get the $400 GNG price out of your mind if you're looking to buy quality parts.
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby skyungjae » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:25 pm

The current price point ($800+ shipping) is very reasonable... cheap even if you consider all that you're getting in comparison to the Chinese manufactured BB drives.

I've put together four GNG type kits where I sourced the specific parts from various vendors in China/Taiwan, and it ended up costing about $600-650 (depending on what freewheel the person wanted & wiring) after shipping. All of these kits used the same BB and crank arms that LR provides in his kit; however, I did not order those from him. All these kits are still using the 15mm belt and factory GNG sheets.

With LR's kit, sure you're paying more, but you're also getting a whole lot more. I'd argue that you're getting more than you're paying for. The steel used in his adjustable sheets don't twist nearly as much as the flimsy thin solid sheets provided by GNG/Conhismotor/etc. You get a much stronger BB and Crankset that won't bend on your first trail ride, you get a 25mm belt that will never break or wear out prematurely due to the power of the motor, the jackshaft housing and material are also improved, a #219 chain secondary reduction instead of a bicycle chain and crappy 12T freewheel, awesome local support if you're in the US, and the kit is actually quieter than the stock GNG.

Though LR's kit was born from the GNG kit, it is far superior in pretty much every aspect.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:50 pm

Thanks Skyungjae. I'm pretty sure that you have more miles on my upgrade parts than anyone else. Wishes is the high load king so far at 4 kW but you rack up the miles. If Wishes can't break it and you don't wear it out I breathe a sigh of relief. My torture testers.

Here's a picture of my first motorized bike, a Bonanza mini bike which was made in 1969. That's what got me thinking about jackshafts and how they're a way to swap drive sides as well as to get more gearing without huge gears. Notice that even back in the '60s they were trying to keep the jackshaft close to the swingarm pivot.

Image
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby Dani » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:14 pm

Thanks guys, I didn't mean to offend or critisice the pricing. All the hours of work plus buying the material and so on as a "hobby" (is it still a hobby? :D ) the price should be higher. Also it's the best you get for your money, I totally concur. Forget the BB kit - it's a crappy build around a good motor, imo.
The thing is that I like to build this on my own - own design, sitting in the garage, building it part by part, screw with it, break it, fix it,.. and get it done. I simply like to build stuff, plus I studied mechanical engineering the past 4 years, so I figured it's time to make good use of it. Also I'm a huge fan of anything that moves. Obviously bikes..

I try to figure out which motor it is - thanks in advance. I can make a keyway on my own - got the equipment, kind of.

Thanks!

PS: I'm from germany

Edit: I'm still looking for dimensions/drawings of the chinese motor (didn't find it on taobao yet).
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby waynebergman » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:40 pm

Screen Shot 2014-07-12 at 9.19.55 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2014-07-12 at 9.19.55 PM.jpg (62.17 KiB) Viewed 1809 times


Hey LR I see that your old Bonanza mini bike was actually a full suspension. Awesome! I had an older version of your mini bike back in the day but mine had no suspension at all. I had a lot of fun on that bike. My boyhood buddy and I Terrorized Mayne Island in British Columbia Canada for years on those things. Best days of my life I think as far a fun goes. Some how that Island had a community jail but no cops. It seemed to be a combination that actually worked pretty good.

Speaking of fun Mike, I hope you are able to get out for some rides yourself to kind of recharge your batteries as it looks you are deep into full on work with this awesome project you have taken on.

Dust off the Bonanza if you can.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby jdevo2004 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:16 am

Are there some QC issues with the first kits? I am number 9 on the list and am hoping to be electric biking this summer.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby t0me » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:42 am

There's a numbered list?

Hi Mike, can you pm me what number I am on the list (longer bottom bracket though so I know there are delays with those from your posts here).
Kona Stink-E - GNG based mid-drive - viewtopic.php?f=28&t=56357&p=839416#p839416
Giant Anthem - LightningRods mid-drive viewtopic.php?f=28&t=67014&p=1008007#p1008007
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby Lenk42602 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:01 am

t0me wrote:There's a numbered list?

Hi Mike, can you pm me what number I am on the list....


I'm number 8!

Any updates on shipping estimates for kit batches?

I have a battery pack that has been siting here since late april waiting for its soul mate !

Come on Mike! You can do it!

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby LightningRods » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:12 am

Hey Guys,

Yes there is a list. I fill these orders chronologically, in the order that they came in. This last week I did allow myself to get sidetracked by a couple of parts customers pitching a hissy fit and wanting to line jump. Keep in mind that in addition to these assembled kits, I ship several times more parts orders that in many cases are complete kits minus the motor. Apparently there are a LOT of broken GNG kits out there. LOL.

Here is the upcoming kit production queue. The names with "X"s after them are currently being assembled.

1- Dennis P- Canada X
2- David B- UK X
3- Leif D- US X
4- Herman L- US X
5- Elhanan M- Israel X
6- Dawson J- Canada X
7- Len K- US
8- James D- Canada
9- Bryan K- US
10- Vincent D- Canada
11- Brian M- US
12- Jeremy L- US

I've just hired a second employee and some time has been spent in training them. Anything I do to create long term efficiency takes time now. Dennis P's kit should go out today. All kits marked with Xs are fully painted and detailed with all necessary parts in house. A couple of customers are wanting wiring upgrades which I am sorting out.

Back to the shop. I have work to do!
"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill." -Wilbur Wright

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby brixmitch » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:28 pm

#11?

Mine shall forever more be called "Spinal Tap".

(Apologies to those too young for the reference) :lol:
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby teslanv » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:43 pm

It's "one" louder...
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby Lenk42602 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:47 pm

LightningRods wrote:Hey Guys,

Yes there is a list. I fill these orders chronologically, in the order that they came in. This last week I did allow myself to get sidetracked by a couple of parts customers pitching a hissy fit and wanting to line jump. Keep in mind that in addition to these assembled kits, I ship several times more parts orders that in many cases are complete kits minus the motor. Apparently there are a LOT of broken GNG kits out there. LOL.

Here is the upcoming kit production queue. The names with "X"s after them are currently being assembled.

1- Dennis P- Canada X
2- David B- UK X
3- Leif D- US X
4- Herman L- US X
5- Elhanan M- Israel X
6- Dawson J- Canada X
7- Len K- US
8- James D- Canada
9- Bryan K- US
10- Vincent D- Canada
11- Brian M- US
12- Jeremy L- US

I've just hired a second employee and some time has been spent in training them. Anything I do to create long term efficiency takes time now. Dennis P's kit should go out today. All kits marked with Xs are fully painted and detailed with all necessary parts in house. A couple of customers are wanting wiring upgrades which I am sorting out.

Back to the shop. I have work to do!



Woot! Thanks!
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby brixmitch » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:51 pm

teslanv wrote:It's "one" louder...



Ha!
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby MitchJi » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:04 pm

Hi Mike,

LightningRods wrote:These Patterson 2 speed BB transmissions are cool but won't work with a mid drive that needs to drive through the BB.
Are you sure that's correct?
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/stoke.html
In our new Right Side Drive (RSD) configuration, there is only a single chain on the right for both the pedal and motor system. The use of a Patterson 2-speed freewheeling crankset allows the motor to drive the chain without spinning the pedals.

Oops! Bummer :( !
Image
It would work if you could figure out how to add a second chainring to the Patterson?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Two examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here
The cells are rated conservatively by GM at 7.8C, Yabert's tests of Volt packs on the DiyEv car forum suggest a higher C rate, 15+ C!.

$1,400 plus $360 freight. Still over $1k less than new lead!
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Postby jdevo2004 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:23 pm

LightningRods wrote:Hey Guys,

Yes there is a list. I fill these orders chronologically, in the order that they came in. This last week I did allow myself to get sidetracked by a couple of parts customers pitching a hissy fit and wanting to line jump. Keep in mind that in addition to these assembled kits, I ship several times more parts orders that in many cases are complete kits minus the motor. Apparently there are a LOT of broken GNG kits out there. LOL.

Here is the upcoming kit production queue. The names with "X"s after them are currently being assembled.

1- Dennis P- Canada X
2- David B- UK X
3- Leif D- US X
4- Herman L- US X
5- Elhanan M- Israel X
6- Dawson J- Canada X
7- Len K- US
8- James D- Canada
9- Bryan K- US
10- Vincent D- Canada
11- Brian M- US
12- Jeremy L- US

I've just hired a second employee and some time has been spent in training them. Anything I do to create long term efficiency takes time now. Dennis P's kit should go out today. All kits marked with Xs are fully painted and detailed with all necessary parts in house. A couple of customers are wanting wiring upgrades which I am sorting out.

Back to the shop. I have work to do!


I appreciate that what you are doing is cutting edge technology and that it is hard to start up a new business. I do not want to tell you how to do your job but you have mentioned for weeks that you have all the parts in stock and it is just a matter of putting the parts together and shipping them out. These kits are not 10,000 piece puzzles that take a week each to assemble. You really need to put them together and get them out the door. Delay after delay is not good for business and makes people like me antsy. This LightningRods mid drive kit is your bread and butter and should be your highest priority to get into your customers hands. It does not look good that orders are coming in while no orders are actually going out.
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