LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jul 02 2018 8:22pm

I’m going to try the ASI BAC2000 with the Big Block and see how that works out. Grin told me that the Small Block works well with the Phaserunner. Both the controller and motor technology is basically the same, only bigger and more powerful, so it should work.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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maitilupas   10 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by maitilupas » Sep 22 2018 1:32pm

i like what this guy is doing ,but i do think there are so many variables when using all these 3rd party gears and stuff , this in my hands will last a couple of hours due to i do heavy trials and enduros and not even a mx 1.5 rim will last or a 219 drive sprocket..
im not sure where are the possibilities with your stuff in my hands but i do think im learned my lesson with allot of these stuff lately,..

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 22 2018 1:40pm

maitilupas,

Perhaps you should be looking for a Sur-Ron ?

LigntingRods , ( Mike ) is always improving on the parts , I have watched this drive for quite a while now, but have been waiting for him to make something less weight and with not so much custom machined parts, in other words , more affordable for me, even though for the power per dollar ratio , he does make a good product.
Mike was, and hopefully will be perfecting the next generation of DIY mid-drive unit's that I think will be the future of DIY Conversions ,
that is to say by using a RC motor .

And By the Way, an expensive Astro or other expensive RC motor is no longer necessary in 2018, The Airplane RC Flyers say that even the Cheep Hobby King Motors have improved enough in quality that they could now be used. You just need to find one of their Low KV ones that takes allot of amps, and is of good enough size.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

Bikercrank   10 µW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bikercrank » Sep 22 2018 8:08pm

LightningRods wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:45am
I just completed a new mid drive. This drive mounts in front of the bottom bracket like a typical mid drive, but does not run through the right side chainwheel. Bicycle sprockets and chain start to have durability issues above 2000 watts. Since this motor is capable of 6000 watts, running through the bicycle drive isn't going to cut it.
This motor is a 50 kv wind of my well known Big Block. The first stage of reduction is 6.25:1 to a 219 sprocket running on sealed bearings on the BB axle. The sprocket spins completely independently of the BB axle and cranks and so no freewheel is needed. The second stage of reduction is from a thick stainless steel 1/2" driver to an equally sturdy 1/2" sprocket mounted on the brake rotor mounts on the rear wheel. Final drive chain can be up to #420.
The advantage to running on the left side is that the right side bicycle gears can be completely factory stock for pedal power only. The right side can be motorcycle grade sprocket and chain better suited to higher power levels. Avoiding the typical mid drive arrangement of lots of motor reduction meeting overdrive gearing from the chainwheel to rear wheel hugely reduces driveline stress.

Image

Image

How do you plan on tensioning the drive chain?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 22 2018 9:33pm

Hi Guys-
Thanks for your posts. I get busy and I forget to post on ES. I do a better job of keeping up with my Facebook page these days.
I am looking at RC motors. I'm also looking at larger, heavier motorcycle sized motors ranging up to 30kW in power. The venerable small block and big block are also serving me well and will continue into the foreseeable future. I have no plans to use Hobby King motors.
I'm going to try to convert the LHD single stage to a belt drive. Since the motor is connected solidly to the rear wheel I'll need a two roller tensioner that will keep both the top and bottom belt runs tensioned. With a single roller tensioner everything gets fouled up when the motor is driven by the rear wheel (regen braking).
Right now I'm working on a Motoped with a 15kW mid drive motor and an ASI BAC4000 controller. It will have a 20S 40Ah battery with max current of 200A. Phase current will be around 360A @ 72V. If you measure max power as phase amps x voltage yeah it's going to be well over 15kW.
Mike
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Sep 22 2018 10:47pm

LightningRods wrote:
Sep 22 2018 9:33pm
Hi Guys-
Thanks for your posts. I get busy and I forget to post on ES. I do a better job of keeping up with my Facebook page these days.
I am looking at RC motors. I'm also looking at larger, heavier motorcycle sized motors ranging up to 30kW in power. The venerable small block and big block are also serving me well and will continue into the foreseeable future. I have no plans to use Hobby King motors.
I'm going to try to convert the LHD single stage to a belt drive. Since the motor is connected solidly to the rear wheel I'll need a two roller tensioner that will keep both the top and bottom belt runs tensioned. With a single roller tensioner everything gets fouled up when the motor is driven by the rear wheel (regen braking).
Right now I'm working on a Motoped with a 15kW mid drive motor and an ASI BAC4000 controller. It will have a 20S 40Ah battery with max current of 200A. Phase current will be around 360A @ 72V. If you measure max power as phase amps x voltage yeah it's going to be well over 15kW.
Mike
any pics you can share of the LR motoped build ?? :D
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 23 2018 8:51am

I'm just getting started on the Motoped build. I'm taking photos. I'll post them soon.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

Bikercrank   10 µW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bikercrank » Sep 24 2018 11:26am

A while back on FB you posted a LR drive with an integrated sturmy archer igh and drum brake, if I remember right. I can’t find the post and I couldn’t see it here, granted I didn’t read all 198 pages. Could you post a pic of that bad boy, and maybe give an update on how it is holding up?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 24 2018 4:11pm

That drive was a prototype that I developed for a Belgian company that was wanting to build their own ebike based on the Ruff frame. I don’t know where they are in their own development process.
The motor power did not go through the gears so there should not be any durability issues with the IGH. The 8 speeds are for pedal power only and motor power is transmitted through the case. It should be bulletproof.
I’m considering a similar mid mounted IGH for people who want one with a hub motor for cruisers. There would just be a single speed freewheel on the hub motor. Again no motor power through the IGH.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

Bikercrank   10 µW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bikercrank » Sep 24 2018 7:23pm

I suppose people still use hub motors. :D it’s good that you think of them too.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 24 2018 8:08pm

Hub motors are great for cruisers. They’re simple and very quiet. I don’t like the handling on dirt bikes with hub motors.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

Bikercrank   10 µW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bikercrank » Sep 26 2018 11:57am

I’d like to see how possible it is to work with existing manufactured hubs before making custom billet hubs. The custom billet jobs are expensive to have made and if a cheap solution turns up I’ll be stuck with them. Simon’s approach is run a narrower manufactured hub and then space the rotor off of the sprocket. In the double left side rotor/sprocket setups I’ve seen, including the 165mm hubs I had made, the sprocket is inboard, the rotor is outboard. Here’s one of the available adapters: https://www.bicycledesigner.com/harmony ... lt-on.html
.
.
[/quote]

so, a 142 hub spaced out to a boost 148 with a sprocket adaptor behind the brake rotor may work without getting too crazy trying to get the brake centered. I’m still trying to figure out how you are going to tension the left chain on a full suspension bike.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 27 2018 6:34am

Right. This wouldn't be hard at all to do on a through axle bike with a horizontal dropout. On a typical vertical dropout bike with quick release hub we'll need the right end spacers and some form of tensioner. It's a lot easier to manage chain tension on a single speed than a cassette. The chain growth from rear suspension is small compared to the difference between the large and small sprocket on a cassette.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

Bikercrank   10 µW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Bikercrank » Sep 28 2018 5:48pm

Mike,
I’m not sure if anyone has tried this yet. How would running 2 chains on the drive side work, one single stage chain back to say a 42t with a tensioner on the drive side just for that, and use most of the rest of the cassette for pedaling with a standard acoustic drive? It might have to use some kind of double freewheel at the crank I’m not sure.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Sep 30 2018 2:08pm

The problem with the scenario that you suggest is that with a bottom bracket drive the motor rpm and pedaling rpm are tied together at the chainwheel. It wouldn't really do you any good to have separate sprockets at the back when they're connected at the front. The options to this is to have a long drive chain on the motor that goes past the chainwheel and directly to the single sprocket on the rear wheel. The chainwheel then transmits only pedal power to the cassette sprockets. Another option is to have a driven/drive combination sprocket on the BB axle on the left side. This method has the advantages of two stage reduction and a shorter final drive chain. I'm working on the latter option.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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Volts   100 mW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Volts » Oct 03 2018 10:54am

Was thinking about getting the single stage reduction big block, any feed back would be helpful.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 03 2018 9:53pm

I'm not sure if you wanted feedback from users or the builder (me). Here's my .02c worth.

The idea behind the Single Stage is that there is no other reason to reduce motor rpm to 100 at the chainwheel and then overdrive it back up to 400 at the rear wheel other than to match motor rpm to rider pedaling cadence. RPM matching is okay at lower power levels, but when you get above 2000 watts the torque multiplication meeting the resistance of overdrive gearing tears up the driveline. Plus if you match motor rpm to pedaling rpm and then run it through the normal bicycle gearing, top speed is limited to how fast you can pedal. The Single Stage doesn't try to match motor rpm to pedaling cadence. It optimizes the gearing for the motor. The chainwheel spins at 500 rpm and even with 1:1 gearing (22t front and rear) top speed is greater than with a 100 rpm chainwheel drive. 1:1 gearing has much lower resistance than 1:4 overdrive. Try it on your own bike, if your low gear is even 1:1. It's easier to pedal in a lower gear. When you try to pedal with 1:4 you can feel the entire bike straining under the load.

Here is a comparison chart of the speeds in each gear in a single stage drive with 6:1 motor reduction and a two stage drive with 30:1.

Image

By making more speed in a lower gear the Single Stage sees reduced driveline stress and higher power capacity. One of my Single Stage customers is running 100 amps through his 8 speed bicycle driveline. If you try that with 30:1 reduction and a 100 rpm chainwheel speed it would immediately destroy some part of the driveline. Too much torque meeting too much resistance.

Here are a couple of beauty shots of the Single Stage and a shot of the bike that's running 100 amps through an 8 speed.

Image

Image

Image

Here is a video of the bike above running through the gears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZHnSWWN9NY



The downside of the Single Stage is that you can't pedal with the motor (unless you can pedal at 500 rpm). The upside is reduced driveline stress, higher power capacity, and higher top speed. You can pedal through the Single Stage if the battery dies. The 11t rear sprocket will give you 1:2 overdrive which is good for 15 mph or so. It's a good "limp home" mode if you suck the battery dry.

For people who like to pedal, I have a couple of different two stage drives that match motor speed to pedaling cadence. I recommend a maximum of 2000 watts through that much reduction. In the very near future I'll have a Left Hand Drive (LHD) that will run one speed for the motor on the left side and leave the bicycle driveline stock on the right. That drive is like having a powerful hub motor, only with good weight distribution, low unsprung weight on the rear wheel, and reduction gearing.

[moderator edit to fix youtube link]
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Volts   100 mW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Volts » Oct 04 2018 6:54am

Thanks Mike that's exactly what I needed to read, umm quick question, Why don't you tap your holes instead of using nuts, also was thinking about getting an IGH, what are your thoughts on IGH with your drives?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Oct 04 2018 9:25am

I’m glad that helped. I’m happy to answer any questions.

The through bolts with Nylock nuts are the most secure way of holding the drive together. The side plates are aluminum to save weight. I wouldn’t trust tapped threads in aluminum with the torque necessary. I could use threaded standoffs with much deeper threads instead of tube spacers with through bolts. That would allow countersunk flat head Allen bolts which would be tidier looking.

The only IGH that I recommend without reservation is the Rohloff. Most of the others will die even with my Small Block motor at 2000 watts. A good quality 8 speed cassette can handle more power than most of the IGHs on the market.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Remus   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Remus » Nov 21 2018 12:13am

Hi all.

One of my crank bolts fell out and has been lost
M12 isis crank bolt
Just likes these ones

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Crank-Bol ... LQjYWzuVPw

Does anyone in know where I'd get one from Australia?

Overseas postage is slow and I need one asap as the bikes my primary form of transport.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by ScooterMan101 » Nov 21 2018 1:18am

Australia is a big Country, because you ask such question , do you live out in a low populated area ?

What is the nearest big city to you with a bike shop , that will take your credit card and post a set to you ?
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

Remus   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Remus » Nov 21 2018 10:52am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 1:18am
Australia is a big Country, because you ask such question , do you live out in a low populated area ?

What is the nearest big city to you with a bike shop , that will take your credit card and post a set to you ?
I've contacted LBS, they had never seen this bolt before. I gave them some details to pass onto a supplier and they had never heard of it either.

I will try other bike shops tomorrow.

Maybe I'll find one online.

Truvativ Crank arm bolt m12

SlowCo   10 kW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by SlowCo » Nov 21 2018 11:31am

Remus wrote:
Nov 21 2018 10:52am
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 1:18am
Australia is a big Country, because you ask such question , do you live out in a low populated area ?

What is the nearest big city to you with a bike shop , that will take your credit card and post a set to you ?
I've contacted LBS, they had never seen this bolt before. I gave them some details to pass onto a supplier and they had never heard of it either.

I will try other bike shops tomorrow.

Maybe I'll find one online.

Truvativ Crank arm bolt m12
Isn't it a Metric Fine thread (M12x1,25 or M12x1,0mm)?
https://www.newmantools.com/tech/threadmf.htm
If so, are there technical hardware stores in your neighborhood that have metric fine thread bolts in stock? Then you could temporarily use a normal bolt (cut to length) with a washer to keep the crank in place while you wait for the correct headed bolt. Just take the other bolt to such a store and see what would fit.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Nov 21 2018 11:42am

They’re M12x1.0.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

Remus   100 W

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Remus » Nov 21 2018 11:33pm

I've contacted a few bike shops, hardware shops. Bolt shops. No one has anything M12 1mm thread. Regardless of length or head. There maybe a rare industry somewhere that has something but I haven't found it.

One place offered to make one for $80 and 3 weeks to produce it.

I've ordered something cheap from China eta mid Dec.

I'll have to buy a car or something lol

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