LR Direct Drive Genesis

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Thu May 22, 2014 4:25 am

ya i assumed it wasn't bright enough for you then?(how useless was it on a scale of 10-40mph?) i have not tried it yet. I just have access to the 10w samples so i figured it would be better than nothing. Not sure how i feel about your setup :), but i'm sure it is brighter.

i could always buy a 30watt one or even bigger and try to retro them into the 10w housing.. I can call the company and get dimensions of the Cree chips today
Last edited by skeetab5780 on Thu May 22, 2014 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby bionicdan » Thu May 22, 2014 12:53 pm

The main issue is the leds colour and diffusion. they are often 6000k bright white and not directed in any way so it will really annoy drivers unless its used as a main beam only like mine were. My case is the same 10w unit you have so you can choose any options in led size from 30 to 300.

I mainly went for the 2x100w chips as I had them already and you get many lumens running at such a low amperage. About 5000 for the first amp I think then say 7500 at 2amp and 9000 and 3 amps. Doubling the amp doubles the heat and reduces the output lumens. I like efficiency.

You could run a single 100w WARM! led in the middle more easily. I found these ones which appear square too
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290994341532?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

Various lenses
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0 ... =2&_sop=15

I used the pwm motor controller to have variable brightness on the fly. Its in my posts somewhere :)

I wouldnt want to go more than 20mph with 10w with no lense fitted.

100w led running at 30w max
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpOAvSNXsrs
Last edited by bionicdan on Thu May 22, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
GEARS? Where we're going we dont need gears!

Due to metal plates and a body full of nuts and bolts I am as bionic as my bike lol.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:22 pm

Thanks for the great info on the LED lighting! i will have to rethink that part of the build once i actually get there. If I don't work out the kinks I might not need to ride at night.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:29 pm

So i went ahead and slapped on a 52T bicycle sprocket, mounted it to the original sprocket and it actually improved my chain line a little. It now pulls around 40 amps when I get on the throttle instead of 60+ but now my top speed has been decreased to 32mph. So its still just as loud and annoying, with a bit more pick-up and a boring top speed. I still have a 58t and a 60t sprocket in the mail, but I'm afraid I already know i don't want them. Otherwise I'd be forced to change the motor sprocket also. Cogging is not as bad.

It still didn't really like to start from a stand-still, but keep in mind I have no pedal power and no throttle tamer..yet

52T rear temporarily mounted with a new chain
Image

Also I started my rear rack controller mount, kinda like farfles original...But I've yet to actually tidy it up
Image
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby standfast » Sat May 24, 2014 7:21 pm

What are the issues with starting? How many amps is your controller limiting it to? I am gonna need to work through that because I am going pedalless.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby Drum » Sun May 25, 2014 12:58 am

Me too. Like Standfast, I am going pedal-less and ride offroad in an area with steep hills.
It is really important for me to have strong torque right from literally zero rpm, as I will not be able to pedal to get a bit of speed, and want to be able to start on a steep uphill.

I have held off ordering one of these motors until Skeetab & BZH have got this sorted or confirmed that it is a problem. BZH said "from 5 to 50 kph it pulls like a train..". I am not sure if that implies that below 5kph it is not so good??

On paper, the low kV and large diameter of this motor should make it ideal for pedal-less bikes. Also the low kV allows single stage reduction to the back wheel, making it simple and keeping efficiency high.

I guess controller type and setup have a significant effect on this, not just the motor and gear ratio.

Watching with interest!!
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:16 am

standfast wrote:What are the issues with starting? How many amps is your controller limiting it to? I am gonna need to work through that because I am going pedalless.


It draws like 30 amps max now that i fixed the wiring, Good thing i figured this out it was driving me nuts. Never thought id be so Noob. But to be honest the torque is pretty awesome it is quiet now and powerful from a stand still or starting on a 20% slope its like a boss.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:29 am

Drum wrote:I guess controller type and setup have a significant effect on this, not just the motor and gear ratio.


It works perfectly fine with the Lyen controllers, i had false wiring combo. Thing works great now

45/11 = 4.09 top speed around 38mph
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby ilanalbag » Sun May 25, 2014 3:30 am

How did you fit the rear sprocket?
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 3:33 am

ilanalbag wrote:How did you fit the rear sprocket?


it is a 130 bcd regular bicycle sprocket bolted to the back of the stock 45t sprocket. The stock sprocket had 5 evenly spaced holes near the teeth that i was able to center the 52t on and clamp it in place and drill thru it, matching the 5 hole pattern then coupling them together with 5mm bolts

Before I realized I screwed up the motor wiring, yesterday I put the 9Continents hub on to have a little fun.
Image
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 3:41 am

Just tested the halls, they are working properly and each displaying voltage while turning. I have it hooked up to a 48v 40amp controller and a Turnigy watt meter to get some data. I will let you know what I come up with.

One thing i noticed is the sprocket retaining screw is junk, the pan head of the screw is not even centered on the threads, another thing to ruin efficiency.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 8:41 am

I never thought this would happen to me but I did it. I HAD A FALSE WIRING COMBO...I feel so dumb but it happens.

1. I was tricked at first by my Rshunt in the first video was way off(5.2250Mohms instead of 1.160Mohms)
2. then I put the value i thought was correct from Lyen 1.000Mohms and took my test ride with the wrong combo...saw amps were way too high
3. I then used a Klein MM100 Ammeter and put it in series with my battery input and found out my actual no load was way too high (over 7 amps) i cant believe the motor still works
4. While doing step 3 i properly tuned the Rshunt value to 1.160Mohms and it seems pretty accurate now.
5. I then finally found the correct combo...duh its color for color and i had blue/green swapped
6. notice how i said the motor was LOUD...it is now quiet as it gets, just like a dd hub motor. This makes me happy again.
6. After this i took the Frock motor off my bike i put on yesterday and put the old rear wheel on with just the 45T sprocket and cut the new chain to length

SO IM BACK TO RUNNING 45T/11T around 4:1 and my speed is about 35mph and has tons of torque to climb hills at 5 mph or 20 mph if u want

I'm so relieved things are fixed and this motor lives up to its expectations. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I went from getting ready to throw this thing away to wanting to buy a spare now.

GO AHEAD GENTS ORDER NOW!

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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 10:15 am

After taking test ride #2 with the new chain and correct wiring, I noticed I needed a rear chain tensioner so my chain wouldn't get too loose. I had some kicking around from a old build that didn't happen. And they happened to work perfectly. They fit the Farfle Swingarm like they were designed for it.

The axle hole and internal flat groove match identically with the swingarm and wheel
Image
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Image
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Image
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Image
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 12:29 pm

So I changed out my front and rear brakes from those pretty looking RSTs that have no stopping power, to some AVIDs. I cant even describe to you how much safer i feel. They can actually skid both wheels now. Ride #3 got cut short due to rain... I started out climbing a nice half mile steep hill then bombed down the other side of it WOT. I got up to 37mph downhill, so its right around my comfort zone. I could use another 5mph to show off sometimes. after that I cruised around a .5 mile slight uphill slalom, and then had a nice 1.5 mile flat road with a decent dirt path parallel to it. I was able to weave back and forth going around 30mph and hit a few good dirt woops. That is when rain struck and i had to make the 2 mile uphill home, i really really need to incorporate pedals to this ride. I'm wasting twice the power i normally would uphill.

Front
Image
Rear
Image
Last edited by skeetab5780 on Sun May 25, 2014 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby Drum » Sun May 25, 2014 2:09 pm

Great news! I hoped it was something like that causing the issue.
There are so many factors that all have to be right. Well done getting it all sorted.

I think it is time to get the credit card out!
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby standfast » Sun May 25, 2014 2:42 pm

Good to hear since mine is already ordered along with a Kelly controller! Along with time spent designing a frame etc.
I was hoping yours was a hall issue or something that could get worked out.

Where did those tensioners come from? Those are perfect.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 7:58 pm

Ya, ive never had a false combo work so well before. Luckily no serious damage was caused, it actually ran faster than it does now by about 5 mph lol.

I am probably going to order another one of these motors now just incase they disappear like everything else good. Now i just need to turn on my regen braking and finish my 2nd battery build.

One thing i noticed is that this thing demands a little more power up any noticable grade compared to my hubs, but then again thats why it has torque like a beast.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sun May 25, 2014 8:08 pm

standfast wrote:Good to hear since mine is already ordered along with a Kelly controller! Along with time spent designing a frame etc.
I was hoping yours was a hall issue or something that could get worked out.

Where did those tensioners come from? Those are perfect.


Tensioner are from Ebay, they work so well with this setup, bought them 2 years ago...see they came in handy

designing a frame and buying a controller is not the end of the world!...I have about 300 extra parts laying around from quick decisions and improper selection of rushed thoughts, sometimes it works in your favor and sometimes you make a fool of yourself :)

If i didnt get this controller for so darn cheap (a hundo) i probably would have tried the Kelly coke can myself, but i didnt see the need. Im glad this combo is working well now.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Sat May 31, 2014 5:58 pm

Got around to finally building my Greenworks lithium pack, I put it off for so long and it ended up being fairly easy to throw together. Here are a few pictures of the process before I started to cover things up and take it on a test ride.

Tool used
Image
First remove the black sticky foam from each pack, then remove all of the original wiring with a soldering iron and cut off any overhanging nickel tabs with scissors
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Once that is done you need to snip off a few plastic molding edges and then they fit together pretty nice
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Both packs together in their formations tapes with Scotch hi-tensile tape
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Image
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Because the sticky adhesive foam left awful residue on the nickel terminals, i had to carefully clean just the spots i need to solder to get a good bond. Goo gone works great, but it is oil based so you want to be very careful. After removing the residue i washed my hands and wiped the metal down with Windex for its drying properties.
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This is a terminal that needs to be cleaned
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And this is what it looks like complete, now i can lightly sand and tin these terminals with solder
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Tinning my wires and getting prepared, using turning 12awg/10awg for main leads
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The next pictures do not really need much explanation
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Positive in place
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Negative as well
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One down, one to go
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Mmm Snapple
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Starting the balance leads, i use 5s Jst extensions from Hobbyking because it is way easier
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I use 1x extension to extend across the packs, then one more to actually keep on the end of the packs
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Need to tame the wiring mess!
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Lightly tape spots that concern me with shorting potentials, i will better address this later on
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Starting to zip tie the wiring lightly
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Balance leads on pack #2
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Almost done
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Tinning 10awg you must be quick, this wire soaks up heat fast!
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End result I'm fairly happy with since this took no longer than 4 hours to do, that's a guess on the long side too
Image

Ive since put one charge and one light discharge on them. Maybe i can get out on the bike tomorrow!
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby damcard » Sat May 31, 2014 11:25 pm

Nice, That motor should replace my cyclone on my racelink bike. Thanks for posting about it. -Damcard
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby mvly » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:03 pm

Nice battery setup! Seems like you are going to build 20s16ah pack? Either that or put them in parallel and have 10s32Ah. I am curious how much the whole thing weighed and how much it cost total.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:00 am

mvly wrote:Nice battery setup! Seems like you are going to build 20s16ah pack? Either that or put them in parallel and have 10s32Ah. I am curious how much the whole thing weighed and how much it cost total.


Thanks, they are 4ah packs so x3 = 12ah at 20s. These cells seem to have a fairly low C rating so they aren't anything to get amazed with. they may be better in parallel for 36v range setup.

its 120 cells total not sure on the weight (I don't even own a bathroom scale)
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby skeetab5780 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:50 am

Got around to incorporating a 18t rear freewheel to the bike so I can actually pedal! Lets see my longest ride before doing this was around 5 miles. Yesterday I almost killed both battery packs putting in a good 30 miles. Pedal power is still needed for me to have fun idk why.

Either way I was able to do some research online and couldn't find the perfect freewheel adaptor I needed anywhere. I actually found 1 Google image, but nothing for sale. I decided to just make one. I'm not sure how long it will last or how much its gonna hurt when it breaks but oh well. I ended up using a cheap $10 road bike hub and cutting both sided off of it and working with it. So far so good

Simply disassemble and then take a hacksaw to both sides
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End up with this
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Then I centered it onto an old disc rotor to get ready to drill the 6 bolt pattern
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Bolted it into place
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.
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Threaded the 18t freewheel onto it
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.
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Put it back together yet again
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Picture of the chainlines
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6 miles into the ride at a trail hut
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13 miles into the ride at the park
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby Drum » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:32 pm

I like your freewheel adapter.. good use of available resources, and as long as the hub flange is well connected to the threaded portion, it looks strong enough and as light as possible.
I see you have two chainrings on the crankset.. are you planning a two-speed setup with a front derailleur?

Good to see it coming together so well.
Good to have some info on the range vs battery capacity as well.
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Re: BHT Brushless Motor meets the Genesis Farfle

Postby standfast » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:01 pm

Wow. Only 5 miles with no pedals? That doesn't sound too good for my plans. How much battery was that with? Average speed?
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