BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

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electricwheels.de   100 W

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BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 03 2014 4:55pm

One of my customers asked me if the Cycle Analyst V3 could control a BBS0x in order to make it conform to legal requirements.

The short answer: YES, it can :mrgreen: !

So the motor was opened, and the internal PAS-sensor removed as it only gives 2 pulses per crank turn. The external speed sensor was also removed. Whilst I was at it, I added a temperature sensor, fixing it to the stator coils with 3M DP490 epoxy.
For the test unit, I added an external PAS-12 sensor, powered with the controllers 5V circuit originally intended for the external speed sensor.

The BBS0x original wiring harness was chopped up, in order to use the original connectors where possible, additional connectors are JST-SM types.

As I had a spare programming socket from another CA-V3, I integrated that to the main wiring trunk. This makes it possible to use the programming cable meant for the CA-V3 also to program the BBS0x with. The software to do this with you find here:
http://www.ulozto.net/x1zej9PD/software8fun-zipp

Between battery and motor the Cycle Analyst V3 external shunt is used.

The Cycle Analyst V3 itself has most cables removed, only the main cable, the speed sensor cable and the programming socket remain. Throttle and brake connectors were replaced with original BBS0x connectors, and one cable for connecting to the main trunk was added.
Also added was an external potentiometer.

A cable from the main trunk connects to a separate ON/OFF switch, which can be mounted somewhere on the handlebar.

One thing that could be done is to develop a suitable internal PAS-sensor with more magnets integrated into the back of the gear (I'm working on it).

Well, this baby goes back to the customer tomorrow. But I'm already thinking of getting one of these motors for myself...

PS: Anyone in the market for a original, brand new display :wink: ?
Attachments
8FUN_BBS0x.JPG
Modified Motor
8FUN_BBS0x.JPG (94.35 KiB) Viewed 7321 times
Cycle_Analyst_V3.JPG
Modified CA-V3
Cycle_Analyst_V3.JPG (94.2 KiB) Viewed 7321 times
Kabelbaum-Wiring_Harness.JPG
New wiring harness
Kabelbaum-Wiring_Harness.JPG (96.78 KiB) Viewed 7321 times
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Aushiker » Jun 04 2014 12:06am

Thanks for posting this. I had been wondering about using a CA V3 with a Bafang BBS01.

Andrew

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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 04 2014 12:16am

Nicely done.

So with the stock display removed, how have you wired back to the controller? I was under the impression it was a comms signal rather then a low level signal between the display and controller.

I have gone to 15S on my BBS and a CA3 conversion would address a few short falls I am now experiencing with the stock control set-up.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 04 2014 2:37am

Kepler wrote: So with the stock display removed, how have you wired back to the controller? I was under the impression it was a comms signal rather then a low level signal between the display and controller.
The main 8-pole connector carries the following wires:
red # +5V from Controller
black # GND
green # Tx
yellow # Rx
brown # P+ (or battery voltage V+)
orange # PL (or battery voltage Vk+)
blue # throttle signal voltage
white # brake switch

Use the BBS Software to set the motor-controller to its max values. The CA-V3 then regulates the Controller the usual way via its throttle signal voltage.

By the way: for those of you who speak German, a parallel thread is running in the German Pedelec-Forum:
http://pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php? ... ern.28153/
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 04 2014 3:19am

Well there is my next mod. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 04 2014 8:29pm

When you remove the external speed sensor, do you have problems with the controller going into error and as such locking itself out?
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by dumbass » Jun 04 2014 9:33pm

PM sent.

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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 09 2014 8:18pm

Been working on my CA3 BBS integration using electricwheel's base as a guide.

Couple of things I wasn't too keen on with the conversion.

Firstly, the external PAS ring doesn't fit on a 750W BBS drive and fouls against the motor housing. I can only presume electricwheels converted a 250W BBS which has the smaller motor housing.

Secondly, the conversion ends up with so many cables making you loose the neat and clean install you get with the stock set up.


Solutions:

The external PAS ring hitting against the motor housing was looking like a deal breaker. However, I have always been very happy with the way internal PAS worked on the drive. General speculation has been that the stock PAS used only 2 magnets and as such had poor resolution. I was always sceptical of this as the drive would react to an 1/8 turn of the crank suggesting it had far better resolution then 2 pulses. So using an ebike tester, I decided to check the operation of the stock PAS. Turns out the stock PAS has in fact 24 pulses on each of its 2 separate outputs. This means it not only has excellent resolution but is also capable of providing a quadrature signal. This is perfect for use with a CA3 and provides more PAS configuration options to play with.
BBS PAS test.jpg
BBS PAS test.jpg (196.7 KiB) Viewed 7113 times
Next I wanted to reduce the number of cables groups running down from the handle bars to the controller. After quite a bit of thought I have come up with a connection method that keeps the cable groups down to 2 with just a short 3rd cable breakout at the shunt to the controller. Below is what I come up with but will provide photos of the wiring set up once I have completed it.
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CA3 BBS02revA.jpg
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 09 2014 8:25pm

Thanks to both of you for posting such detailed solutions to improving this drive. Integrating the CA3 fixes several of the weaknesses of the original design.

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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 10 2014 2:44am

Someone posted a picture in the German Pedelec-Forum that actually showed the magnetic fields of the original internal PAS magnet disc:
PAS-magnet-field.jpg
BBS0x internal PAS magnet fields made visible
PAS-magnet-field.jpg (73.61 KiB) Viewed 802 times
So yes, the disc has 48 poles and should be usable as a PAS quadrature signal directly with the CA-V3. Perfect!

Here the link to the original posting:
http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index. ... ost-384721
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 11 2014 9:46pm

Conversion continues.

Installed a short extension plug between the internal controller and PAS connection to provide power and neg from the controller and break out the 2 signals from the PAS to be processed by the CA3.
IMG_3738.JPG
IMG_3738.JPG (209.14 KiB) Viewed 6885 times
I decided to install a custom shunt in on the negative side to keep it all nice a compact. Also opted to take battery power +itve from the BBS wiring bundle rather then the CA wiring which again made for a cleaner install.
IMG_3739.JPG
IMG_3740.JPG
Next job was to wire up all the connections within the CA. It gets very busy with the extra cabling. Still need to add the program cable and Speedo pick up.
IMG_3741.JPG
IMG_3741.JPG (206.36 KiB) Viewed 6885 times
This how the wiring actually ended up.
CA3 BBS02revB.jpg
CA3 BBS02revB.jpg (103.41 KiB) Viewed 6885 times
So far, so good. Quite a time consuming process but hopefully worth the effort. It better be as my original wiring harness is all chopped up :lol:
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 11 2014 10:03pm

Its alive!!!

Time to run some tests. Installed a standard thumb throttle and did some basic config within the CA3 . Next I carried out some basic configuration of the PAS with the CA3.

With the drive off the bike I took the opportunity to service the drive and re grease the main gears. This also gave me the opportunity to check demo the sound of the drive through its various reduction stages.

The first two videos demonstrate the throttle control though the CA3 and noise of the drive at the intermediate stage and the final stage.

The final video shows the PAS operation through CA3 control.

Really pleased with the bench testing. Time to finish of wiring the CA and get the drive back on the bike for some serious road testing





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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 12 2014 2:45am

Well done, Kepler.

I like the 8) idea of the small shunt, I'll build my next one using it as well.

And yes, it means sacrificing the original wiring harness and quite some time to put the new one together.

Did you use the original Bafang connectors for throttle and ebrake?
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 12 2014 5:14am

Thanks electricwheels. I have gone down the route of a small compact inline shunt on some of my RC builds and had great success with the approach. Takes a bit of commitment to carry out this conversion and it is not a project to take on lightly. If you hadn't posted this thread, I certainly wouldn't have attempted it. That first cut into the Bafang wiring harness is a real leap of faith and I am hoping both yours and my documentation will give others the confidence to have a go also.

In relation to ebrake, I havent wired them in. I am not a big fan of ebrakes especially when using Hydro's.

Anyway, this the way my interpretation of the conversion turned out. I am looking forward to re installing the drive back on the bike on the weekend and start playing with all the new feature the CA3 will provide.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by --freeride-- » Jun 12 2014 7:31am

I have a huge delay on the throttle using my BBS02 750W with stock settings. This ramp up/ ramp down delay is about 2seconds long.

I don't see why a CA on top of that delay should make things better?

Or is there a way to get rid of that ramp delay?

Without the delay it would make sense to use a CA to get a legal throttle that is only active if PASS is on.

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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 12 2014 3:39pm

Hey Kepler,

your photo shows 1 TRS programming socket, and you write 'Programming CA3 and BBS'.
CA3 AND BBS????
I am getting curious...

On another note: what did you do with the original BBS program? Did you change some settings, if so which ones?

As it wasn't my own motor/bike conversion, I am really looking forward to your drive report.

I'm getting my own motor to play with tomorrow.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 12 2014 4:45pm

The arrow points to two programming plugs. The stock 3.5mm audio jack for the CA and the BBS plug that was originally the plug for the stock display. Since I had already gone to the trouble of making a BBS programming plug to fit this socket, made no sense to change.

Interestingly I have made no new programming changes specifically for the CA3 interaction as yet. I actually have the drive limited through the software to about 70% on my previous setup. Curiously though, it seems that I am getting fully throttle to the drive as you can hear the RPM plateau at about 90% throttle mark. I am sure there will be some programming changes to make to the BBS to get the most out of it with the CA once I see how the drive reacts under load.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 12 2014 4:52pm

--freeride-- wrote:I have a huge delay on the throttle using my BBS02 750W with stock settings. This ramp up/ ramp down delay is about 2seconds long.

I don't see why a CA on top of that delay should make things better?

Or is there a way to get rid of that ramp delay?

Without the delay it would make sense to use a CA to get a legal throttle that is only active if PASS is on.
Hey Freeride, I can understand this conversion getting your attention as I know the throttle delay has been a major dislike for you.

Firstly, have a listen to the first video towards the end. I am snapping the throttle on and off and you can hear the delay is quite minimal. In fact the CA still has built in delays that I set up on my last build. It may well be that our drives are programmed differently also as I never really noticed a major delay in throttle action even with the stock set setup. I am sure your delay could be tuned out with the BBS software though.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 14 2014 4:17am

Go the drive re fitted to the bike and started the process of tuning the CA to suit the BBS.

First thing was to calibrate the throttle input and output via CA. It became quickly apparent that the standard thumb throttle had a massive dead band both at the start at the end of its travel making it impossible to set up a nice linear throttle curve. Swapped it out for another thumb throttle that I had laying around and straight away was able to get a nice linear response across the full range of movement.

Next The BBS was re programmed to make sure 100% throttle was available. Not much to do here.

On the Basic setting page, I just made sure Assist setting 9 was 100% on both current% and speed%

On the Throttle setting page, I set the Designated Assist to 9 and start current% to 1.
ThrottleCA3.jpg
ThrottleCA3.jpg (20.46 KiB) Viewed 6738 times
The shunt was then calibrated using a Fluke meter and current limits wound out on the CA to make sure they didn't get in the way while testing.

One surprising development was that the drive now peaked at 1500W with the CA. Much of this is due to running 15S and going from 50V to 60V. However, voltage increase alone should have taken Watts to about 1350W so it seems like pushing a true full throttle signal to the drive (4.1V) has squeezed a bit more out of the drive.

Throttle ramps were set up to give smooth crisp power delivery resulting in a really nice linear throttle action. A big improvement over standard.

Next was to start tuning up the PAS. The Auto PAS function was selected so I could use a combination of 3 speed switch and potentiometer to set the level of assist. Although this is operating in a reasonable manner, this part still needs further tuning with the standard PAS on the BBS controller being still significantly better. Lots of things still to try here though so hopefully I will get the PAS operating to my liking. I have had good success with the CA PAS function on other builds so I am confident I will get it dialed in. At the moment the biggest issue is a surge of power on start up. I have wound down both amp limit and Watt limit gains as much as possible which has helped a bit but still not acceptable as it is.

So nice to have a full suite of data functions back.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by electricwheels.de » Jun 14 2014 5:05am

Hey Kepler,

I changed the setting pretty much to the same values as you have except the setting start current % which I set to 100% instead of 1%.
I also measured the actual throttle output values and reset end voltage also to 4.1V

I also use the Auto PAS setting and a poti to set the assist level.
Here I experience the same surge of power on startup (this is a 250W BBS01). Also fiddling around with various Gain settings, but so far it's been difficult to get good results (remember that the motor is at a customers place and communication is by eMail).

Today my own motor is to arrive, then its converting it and straight to the test rig.

Keep us posted how you go with the tuning.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 14 2014 5:16am

I found that if you set the the start current to 100%, the drive would go to 100% throttle as soon as you touched the throttle where at 1%, it was a linear delivery increase across the range of throttle motion.


I think with both of us working on the PAS surge on startup, we will get it figured out. Perhaps Teklektik will chime in with some advice. Will shoot him a quick PM.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by teklektik » Jun 14 2014 10:45am

Kepler wrote:I think with both of us working on the PAS surge on startup, we will get it figured out. Perhaps Teklektik will chime in with some advice. Will shoot him a quick PM.
No need to PM - I've been an avid reader of the thread from the start - this is an intriguing project and the meticulous work and reporting have been quite captivating. The whole V3/mid-drive area is completely new and with no mid-drive experience I confess to having difficulties trying to come to 'thought experiment' conclusions about a good V3 control mechanism. Anyhow, here's a thought or two:

I would suggest setting ThrO->FastThresh = 0 to defeat the the switch from FastRate to UpRate on startup. This will leave the V3 running exclusively on UpRate. This feature was included to allow drive trains with freewheels to come up to speed rapidly and then apply a slower rate once engaged. Disabling this may seem counter-intuitive for a mid-drive, however, by design it guaranties that initial power application employs the more aggressive FastRate - however briefly - until the CA can react and begin using the gentler UpRate.

Since the effects of FastRate can easily be at odds with smooth getaways I recommend disabling the feature initially and postponing the separate matter of re-engagement tuning until after the primary tuning is complete.

Another possibility might be to configure this feature backwards to use it other than as intended. 'FastRate' is really a misnomer that unfortunately reflects 'use' rather than actual 'function'. A better name might be 'InitialUpRate'. So - from the perspective of the revised name, we get the idea to configure the InitialUpRate to be 'slower' than UpRate so that the initial ramp is very gentle and then switches to a faster ramp once the motor takes on meaningful load. The actual value for FastThresh will likely be quite small - perhaps less than an Amp.

Beyond this - I'm afraid that my total lack of familiarity with the drive controller and programming options leave me at a disadvantage. One of my concerns is that there are two independent control systems in the same closed throttle loop. This may make tweaking in the V3 PAS power PI controller more difficult as the OEM controller makes adjustments of its own in a fashion that is unexpected by the V3. My knee-jerk reaction is that a totally dumb controller would simplify CA tuning - but in the end there may in fact be features there that can improve the overall result. In any case I look forward to reading about your results as this project unfolds - really a super thread! :D
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 14 2014 8:43pm

Thanks for chiming in Tek. Your suggestions make logical sense and will give them a go today. I was also thinking of halving the set PAS pole count to dull down the startup resolution.

I too am a little concerned about the controller making its own adjustments unexpected by the CA however the fact that I can get the motor to ramp up and down in a smooth and predictable fashion with the throttle gives me confidence the PAS control can do the same.

Anyway time to test.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by Kepler » Jun 15 2014 11:22pm

Spent a number of hours yesterday trying all sorts of settings to get both good throttle and PAS control to the BBS from the CA3. To be honest, quite a frustrating day with only marginal improvements made.

The PAS surge on start up continues to be a problem. The suggestions put forward by Tek were tried in numerous combinations but unfortunately made little difference. I was able to tune the surge out of PAS start-up by lowering throttle UpRate and lowering Amp/Watt gains but unfortunately this resulted in a sluggish throttle action.

Running the throttle control closed loop did however show some promise and I did manage to achieve a half reasonable balance between good throttle control while at the same time reducing PAS surge on start up.

As suggested by Tek, there may well be interaction from the controller's internal control loops interfering with the CA3's control loops so at this stage I will go back to basics and go back to throttle passThu mode, disable PAS, and see if I can make any other useful changes to the BBS02 programing.

I have now disabled the PAS within the the BBS controller and set the end voltage also to 4.1V with the BBS controller.

Hopefully that will help. Will do some more testing tonight.
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Re: BBS0x controlled by Cycle Analyst V3

Post by teklektik » Jun 16 2014 1:30am

Kepler wrote:I was able to tune the surge out of PAS start-up by lowering throttle UpRate and lowering Amp/Watt gains but unfortunately this resulted in a sluggish throttle action.

Running the throttle control closed loop did however show some promise and I did manage to achieve a half reasonable balance between good throttle control while at the same time reducing PAS surge on start up.
Hmmm - I would recommend using Current Throttle. This will make the throttle rely on AGain exclusively and leave AutoPAS to rely only on WGain, giving you independent damping control of throttle and PAS (they will use the separate Current and Power PI controllers respectively). This may be what you already tried, but just trying to cover the bases...

As a last-ditch idea, I can point out that I use a simple PAS wheel and get very smooth getaways with an extremely torquey drive, but I use the AutoTorqPAS and Virtual Torque hacks outlined in section 6.5 and 6.6 the Guide. My PAS adjust pot is hooked to the PAS torque input and the 3-speed switch is hooked to AuxPot where it affects only the throttle. (Using the strategy outlined above, AuxPot would be set for Current Limiting).

I mention this only in that this results in using TorqPAS not AutoPAS. There may be some behavior differences between these modes even though they both rely on the Power PI controller - but this is just conjecture. If you wanted to try this, you could forego moving the Assist pot on your rig and just try the AutoTorqPAS gimmick from section 6.5 alone but set to a modest assist level. Using the first column of the adjustment table on page 50 gives the equivalent of AutoPAS, while other columns to the right give increasing assist scaling with cadence over 55rpm. Again, let me emphasize that I have no reason to believe that this will give less surge or smoother getaways, but it is available as a last desperate experiment if a satisfactory solution using AutoPAS proves elusive....

Hopefully the Current Throttle approach will work out and this last wacko experiment won't be necessary... I'm really hoping the controller is not working devilment in the background.
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