What would the best full suspension bike be (features)?

recumpence

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Hey Guys,

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering what your ideal hard edge full suspension bike consist of? (I am talking a high-end bike with a price tag around what a Stealth costs.) This would be a downhill style bike.

I do not want to hear "20,000 watts, 200 mile range, and $1,000 price". I want realistic suggestions. :wink:

First of all, for the sake of argument, I assume it would be a monocoque/box frame. But, would your ideal frame be aluminum or steel? Chromoly maybe?
How about forks?
Suspension travel?
Wattage? (let's be realistic)
Brakes?
Seat style (bike seat versus motocross style seat)?
On-board charging, or off board charging to save weight?
How about range (remember, higher range means more weight and higher cost in batteries)?
Would you prefer performance, or range?

I am wondering what the market is specifically. I know, in general, what the market is. But, I want some specifics.

If you could design your own bike with realistic goals and attainable performance (not vaporware, unobtainium stuff), what would it be?

Let's dream, here! I know you have all dreamed of your ideal full suspension dirt bike. So, what would it be?

Matt
 
similiar to a Stealth Fighter, but mid-drive. Weight +-30kg maximum. Frame would be whatever suits this weight- if chromoly works, ideal.
As "bicycle-looking" as possible, to avoid issues on the trails.
6-8kw.
Dual front disk brakes
220-250 rear suspension
200mmm front suspension
Bicycle seat, so looks like bicycle
off board charging to save weight
40km range
60km/h max
26 inch wheels, not 24
 
Hi Matt, I imagine you will get many different answers, as each person has different riding terrain in their neighbourhood, different skill levels, experience and expectations.
So let's kick off my reply with a bit of background: I have 4 grandchildren (so far) and I have discovered that I bruise easier and recover more slowly than I used to.. so I am less interested in rushing around the place at high speeds or getting my wheels a long way off the ground.
Also, my riding areas are steep, rocky and very slippery when wet.
So: If we were talking about internal combustion bikes,and I was asked whether I would prefer a trials bike, trail bike or motorcrosser the answer would be between the trials and trail bikes.

I wouldn't care too much about construction methods as long as the chassis was strong and stiff enough to feel good when ridden, but I think the monocoque/ box frame offers the advantage of enclosed ares for batteries etc, and large surface area for dissipating heat from the controller (and motor, if it was thermally connected to the frame) so that seems a good route to go down.
-Mid drive, not hub motor as good suspension performance is important.
-Suspension from a top end downhill bike, say 180 -200mm fork travel, a bit less at the back.
-Steering head angle a compromise: stable enough for reasonable trail speeds but competent playing trials in technical terrain.
-Seat: If a "No pedals" bike then a motorbike style seat, at a compromise height: low enough so moving around the bike is easy but high enough that trail riding is comfortable. Probably a "with pedals" bike should have a bicycle saddle on a dropper seatpost.
-Enough power that lifting the front wheel was easy at lower speeds but controllable enough that unplanned wheelies didn't happen too often / suddenly, also controllable so riding on steep slippery terrain wasn't too difficult. Enough torque to climb anything it can get traction on, either through a large torquey motor or smaller motor and multiple gears. At a guess (because my bike isn't running yet, so I haven't got direct experience) 8kW peak, 5 kW continuous would do it??
-50 - 60kph top speed, 40 - 50kph comfortable cruise.
-Brakes: I think top end downhill mountain bike brakes (eg Shimano Zee, Saint or equivalent) on 200mm discs would do it. Personal preference for variable regen braking as an option (again I have no experience of this yet).
-Wheels / tyres: 24" x 3" mountainbike at the back, 26" x 2.5" at the front, with strong hubs, spokes & rims. I think motorbike rims / tyres would add too much weight.
-Range: 1 hour's hard riding, 1 1/2 hour's cruising? more would be nice and it would be great if there was a bit of spare room to add extra batteries for more range later.
-Charging: personally I wouldn't put on-board charging for my use due to extra weight / complication.

Sounds a bit like what I am building, not surprisingly... I will know a lot more once mine is running, and it is possible that I will change my ideas once I have a bit of time on it in different terrain. But for now, that's what I would be looking for.

I like BZHwindtalker's LMX P2, but the box frame bike with pedals he is working on now looks like an interesting one as well.. it looks close to my ideal "with pedals" bike.

I'll be interested to see the replies as they come in. Good luck with your project.
Dave
 
What is the bike for?

I have no need for big drop suspension or long range. I want a bit of speed over the short runs I do on a bike. Downhill forks look quite ridiculous on a commuter as do motorcycle looking frames. I just want a bike. If it has to cost silly money, It will have top components and be very weight conscious.


I guess I have no need for full suspension. I tried it, but only very briefly. A big drop bike is not for commuting, It is for going off and doing some drops. In which case you don't want to be coming home in half an hour. It will need lots of battery to have any real use. Making a full suspension bike all about the battery.


I'm not sure how on or off board charging effects weight. However people do like to secure the bike indoors, but charge the battery in the garden shed. It would be nice if the pack comes out. Maybe the frame box should have a large access area and a liner of some sort. Thus you can load in a stack of spaghetti wiring, that can all be lifted out in the liner. Maybe two liners for ease. Then if the bike starts flaming, you can get them out quick!
 
To my mind full suspension implies off road use and not a commuter. I prefer the tube frame look with the boxed area for batteries. Mid drive for sure... Dont really care for pedals... particularly when they are just to make it appear to be a bicycle. My old butt would prefer a motocross seat. No onboard charging for weight reasons. Hill climbing ability over top speed. 5-8 kw continuous 15 kw peak. 200 mm travel front and rear. 30 to 40 mph top speed 30 mile range... range is going to be heavily dependent on riding style and terrain. Probably motorcycle tires and rims for durability 17 inch rim rear 19 front to keep weight down. Open source concept for frame design...controls... and drive train... a community effort with community rewards. In my mind its not a huge market and so many one designs stifle the market and make costs high. At the same time seems a bit difficult to get two people to agree on much of anything on this site... let alone a collaborative effort.
 
thanks for all the input guy. That is what I want to know. A mention was made on wheel size. I am open to 24 or 26 inch wheels. Motorcycle rims can be considered. What are your thoughts?
 
PRW said:
similiar to a Stealth Fighter, but mid-drive. Weight +-30kg maximum. Frame would be whatever suits this weight- if chromoly works, ideal.
As "bicycle-looking" as possible, to avoid issues on the trails.
6-8kw.
Dual front disk brakes
220-250 rear suspension
200mmm front suspension
Bicycle seat, so looks like bicycle
off board charging to save weight
40km range
60km/h max
26 inch wheels, not 24

I'd say the same but no need for dual front brakes, high end DH brakes do the trick (and less weight).
Also I don't need 200mm front suspension, 160-180mm are enough plus less diving effect when braking hard (and less weight).
Keeping it just under 30kg is what I'd like the most. My DH Team + Cromotor weights 40kg so 10kg off will add 10% range (I ride in center city) and 10% in acceleration.

0 to 40km/h in 3s or less.
2-speed to pedal, one at 25km/h and one for over 40km/h.
Also the bike must be easy to pedal without motor, so freewheel on the rear hub.

A torquey setup at 6-8kW is where free hub tend to fail, that's the problem of this kind of built...
 
What are you considering for main end use. Cross country / road / both? Very different builds, IMO.


Aluminum boxed frame setup with quick swap battery / multiple pack/ range options.

MID- direct chain drive! No jack shafts or other complications.

Dual front brakes. Longer travel suspension if for off road. Longer wheelbase and less travel for road use. Trick, would be adjustable ride height!

Moto seat is a must for shifting weight balance to slide it with any control/ keeping the front wheel from slipping and on (near) the ground with goobs of power on tap.

Bigger wheel better but let the power / tire / terrain choice dictate what is best.

As light as possible!
 
i must say the third bike in my signature :)

has almost everything you could wish for - if we are still talking in the direction of bicycle and not motorbike like 10kw+.
7020/7005 aluminium frame, batteries in a hard case 3mm thick shell, bms and a single battery plug to charge, 2kw+, 60km/h top speed, an absolute minimum of 30km range (i hate those marketing "up to xxx km range" messages), lot of suspension, 200mm 4 piston disk brakes, superb handling, 2.5" wide tires, 26" wheels, just a tad over 30kg (depending on battery capacity 32-34kg)
if i had one wish: noise reduction. the high speed whining of the motor and the spur toothed planetary/sun gears make it a bit loud.
 
All good stuff!

So, saving weight yet offering longer range in the way of more battery capacity would be desirable?

Also, a mid drive running left side would eliminate driveline torque limitations.

Matt
 
If the bike will be used as a "downhill bike" and used on mountain bike tracks / trails the motor will be useless going down the hill (there's plenty of speed available if you let go of the brakes)
So the issue becomes going back up to the top. and X-country MTB trails. for these I have found with my 750W BBS02 full suspension that I can't ride with max assist on MTB trails as it's simply too fast for the conditions (too many trees / tight corners etc) and going up the hills.

So..My ideal "downhill" bike would be something like your Motoped but with 44V15Ah of LiPo (pouch or 18650), a single drive to save on weight. This would be intended for downhill applications, and only using the motor to get back to the top. that's about it. With that in mind I've not ridden a motoped so cannot comment on weight or pedal-ability. 40km/h max so you've got torque to play with going up (maybe even 30km/h max)

If it's dual purpose for X-Country, I'd go with a mid-drive through the gears, like the BBS02 but perhaps 2kw for more more uphill fun. and use any existing downhill bike style (200mm front fork 225mm rear travel, 203mm brakes etc) in both cases, 30kg max.

Thanks
Andy
 
recumpence said:
So, saving weight yet offering longer range in the way of more battery capacity would be desirable
lower weight is always preferred. but not over range. if you have to lift a mountainbike over a fence or fallen tree every kilo counts. but pedaling your heavy bike uphill with a flat battery is much worse in the trees than on a paved road.
putting the battery in a rucksack gives you both: a light bike and range. but not everyone likes a heavy bag pack.
if you could tell us why you asked your topic question (build a bike for your recreation, for a friend, start mass production, just as a thinking experiment) i may help better.
one more addition for what i would need for a better bike: lockable front/rear suspension. something you don't need for freeride/downhill bike but desperately needed with a flat battery ;)
 
But, would your ideal frame be aluminum or steel? Chromoly maybe? Whatever is resilient, affordable, light and repairable - in that order for me.
How about forks? My primary use would be on-road, secondary offroad. High speed cornering (35mph+) on tarmac loads up the fork a lot, dual crown would be appropriate. Quality! Prefer air sprung for tunability for various bike weights and riders.
Suspension travel? I currently have 200mm travel front and rear and use the perhaps 130mm of it on a daily basis at current fork settings. Don't need all of that - however I do need quality forks which tend to be long travel offroad applications in high end bike components.
Wattage? (let's be realistic) 12kw peak, 6-8kw for near continuous load (high speed cruise when required)
Brakes? High end DH components work for me, Shimano Saint/Zee are excellent.
Seat style (bike seat versus motocross style seat)? Haven't tried motorcycle seat, however I think this immediately changes peoples perceptions of the bike towards first impressions being a motorcycle. For my onroad use this would be a negative, unless legally registered as a moped...
On-board charging, or off board charging to save weight? off board, I keep a charger at home and one at work, plus another lightweight number for my backpack if I need to charge somewhere unusual.
How about range (remember, higher range means more weight and higher cost in batteries)? 1.5KWh - 2KWh. This should allow for a comfortable 50-60km range - further than I would want to ride in a single session anyway.
Would you prefer performance, or range? Range beyond 50km is meaningless for me, especially having the ability to recharge at 1.8kw+ means stops don't take too long. I would much prefer 18650's over lipo
 
I'm assuming this is for the dirt.

It needs to look like a bike, many trails don't like e-bikes or worse.

It needs to be capable of climbing steep stuff, without drawing attention to itself. A really good torque control would be excellent for stealth and good control.

It needs to be light and tough. Aluminum or Cro-moly is fine, though aluminum at the same strength will offer greater dent resistance.

It needs to have enough braking to handle the steep stuff with confidence. 203mm's front and rear should do. Duals draw too much attention.

No need to have onboard charging, it is not going to get that close to a plug most of the time in the dirt. Instead the battery should be removable so you can have a spare and charge one while enjoying the other.

If you want to mix on the MTB trails it should not be too much power, say 3kw max. To handle the steep climbing it will probably need to be mid-drive, or perhaps just 2-speed with a large ratio between them, but it needs to be super quiet, and not obviously electric. (perhaps the new 2-speed hubmotors will soon meet this requirement).

Lower unsprung weight also argues for mid-drive. But it must be a silent one.

For those occasional longer range, have a way to carry the second battery pack along, maybe even use both at once.

Speed, this is not a speed machine, 30mph is plenty, climbing steep stuff is key. If it looks too little like a bicycle then it might as well be a motorcycle and there is no point then. If one wants a motorcycle somewhat like this, you can already buy it from Zero.
 
This is good info. So, the general consensus is mid drive (that is great for me :wink: ), high-end brakes and forks, light weight with off-board charging, and make sure it looks more like a bicycle than a motorcycle.

Matt
 
I think it would be hard to top the Qulbix Raptor 140 if you are going for a rear hub. That being said, I think there's a lot of potential for a non-hub. I don't think a lower-powered Ebike would bring the kind of prices that would make it worthwhile. But for high power, there is definitely an unfilled niche. Heavy Cromotor in the rear wheel? You can choose Vector, Raptor, Phasor, Stealth, etc. No truly great mid drives yet with pedals.

Moving the motor weight closer to the center is always good. I think its even possible to get Cromotor-power levels with a lighter motor. There are two big blocks being used right now (inrunner roughly 135mm dia X 110mm long/ 5 inches X 4.5-ish), The LightningRods high Kv motor using 48V and a jackshaft, and the BHT low Kv motor at 80V and a single chain to the wheel. I believe they both make too much power to run through the chainrings and bike chain (for longevity, and to retain stock BB crankset).

You could locate a motor at the inside bottom rear of the frame (like the LMX-P2)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&start=25#p862358)

LMX-P2.png
...or...

It might be slightly less desirable to mount the non-hub on the swingarm just in front of the rear tire (Like John in CR's Sheriff, or this):

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63428&start=25#p979548
...Its definitely light and agile....I'm always grinning on this bike, I don't even ride my 52mph cromotor bike anymore...

10410893_10203153762060996_2984252355653539364_n.jpg


However, this mount is much better compared to the motor weight in the wheel, not to mention good heat-shedding plus motor can easily spin 4 times faster than the wheel (better power density). The biggest benefit of this type of mount is the entire frame triangle is free to hold a large volume of battery. My favorite configuration is the swingarm pivot being the jackshaft (like Motoped), and...the motor could be in the frame or on the swingarm, either way.

TIRES
As to wheels / tires, the Raptor guys are very experienced and fairly consistent on recommendations:

https://www.electricbike.com/qulbix-raptor/
The swingarm is designed to accept tires as fat as 3-inches, and although some riders will use fat bicycle tires, there are several motorcycle tires that work well with the Raptor because of this extra tire space.
“…I have now tested 16 different tires. I keep going back to the Shinko SR 241 because they are the best on both the road and dirt. A knobbie works better on the dirt, and the M62 Michelin works better on pavement. But no tire works better than the SR241 on all types of terrain….That is the best tire I have tested to date in sizes 2.75 X 19, 3.00 X 17, and 2.75 X 17…”
“…I went with the Prowheel rim and Shinko 241 tires. The Raptor needs a 26″ front wheel to maintain the 14″ bottom bracket height, the rear can use a smaller diameter tire and be adjusted for higher height with the movable shock mount. If you had a 10.5″ shock and a 26″ rear wheel it would probably raise the rear too high (and couldn’t adjust it anymore to lower the height), so a 10.5 shock and 19″ Prowheel is perfect setup. Plus you get over 10 inches of rear travel with a nice long 10.5 X 3.5 shock…”

“…I also feel that putting a dirtbike tire in the front is questionable. Maybe it could be better but I have my doubts. For one, the downhill biking community does not like big fat 3″ tires out front. With the better suspension, there is no need to use such fat tires. Supposedly you want the front tire to not be so fat so that it can dig in better in off-road conditions…”
“…There is also no reason to use a heavy dirtbike tire and wheel on the front when a bicycle tires will give you far better selection, and weigh much less. Bicycle tires I find work well on the front, and never pinch flat and also wear very slowly. I would think a bicycle tire also has softer compound and will be better suited for a much lighter ebike than a motorcycle. This is only for front tires, for the rear…a dirt-bike tire is a must! You should really only use a 19″ prowheel rim in the rear…”
“…After the big problems with bicycle rear tires pinch-flatting all the time and wearing away too quickly, the Shinko 241 is a dream tire. Both the 241 Shinko 19 X 2.75 (and Duro Razorback 26 X 2.6 front tire) have held up really well to constant abuse. I am talking about hitting curbs and steps at high speeds, and doing high jumps! If you insist on using small spokes, go 12-Ga minimum. High quality 12-Ga will be adequate, but 8-Ga to 10-Ga is better, though…”
“…The reason I recommend a 26″ mountain bike up front is first it seems to be accepted amongst downhillers that 26″ wheels roll better through obstacles than 24″ wheels. You will also have many more tire options in a 26″ size. Other reasons are that a motorcycle tire up front will probably have too stiff of a tread for optimal traction. You will also have added weight which is not needed, and the fact is the front tire on an ebike doesn’t wear away quickly and doesn’t have any problems with pinch flats. There is no reason to use a heavier tire and rim which may throw off the fork performance with the extra weight that it was never designed for. I know a Stealth uses 24″ tires up front, but that doesn’t really seem to make sense why they choose that…”

On the new Vector, the narrowest configuration of the frame housing with flat sideplates accepts two 4S LiPo packs side-by-side. They also have a couple 3D shapes of side panels to allow a wider battery pack.

If several lengths of rear shock were desirable options, I always thought it could work to have the lower mount down below the swingarm (shock passing through the swingarm), which I thought would be less restrictive in where to place the top mount.

Zlatkos CBM mounts the rear shock in a different way, opens up some options.
10383968_10203965589714969_8796102769639847739_n.jpg
 
I think there are two distinct (off-road) schools of thought - those who want something with several kW, moving close to an electric motorcycle, and those who want a true mtb that looks and feels like a bicycle, but has a bit more 'go' than the nominally 250W offerings.

It all depends on your riding area. If you are on public trails then the latter is the only sane option. Alan B has pretty much spec'd it.
 
First of all you need set some Limits, there is not one perfekt bike for everybody:

For me there ar 3 kinds of Offroadbikes:

1. Kind: 5kw+ no pedals
If I live on the country where nobody cares what I do or how loud I am, I could buy a MX bike and thats it.
It is nearly the same with 10kw+ builds that look like MX bikes like your Motoped.
The LMX P2 for me is very near to the optimum of that kind off bikes.

I would love such a bike if I would live on the country.

But most people do not and then a stealth look is more importand espexially in Europe, when there are strict laws and high fines and every Cop knows how a bicycle looks like. Allthough a bicycle going 60km/h without padeling is not stealth at all. You will get pulled over.

2. Kind: Bicycle look, 3-5kw driving the left site at the rear wheel.

3. Kind: Middrive Bicycle drivedrain >2kw very stealth

My Bike:



160mm front 170mm rear,
19.5kg +Battery in the Backpack

1kw limited Bafang BBS02, 38T front, 13-42T 7speed in the rear, damped rear derailleur no Chainguide needed.

Legal working speed limit in the city, 42km/h top speed offroad due to gear ratio (climbing ability and gear life is more importand that 50km/h top speed).
The BBS02 is super silent, you hear nothing under normal conditions, even if you put 1200W through it, it is more silent than an good geared hub motor.
It has enough power to pull up vertical hills in first gear, i allready did fall over ;)
It allthough has a current throttle you can programm.

My bike is perfekt for me, but the crank axle is a bit weak for hard riding and you could always have more power, but I am not sure if it makes sence to put that power through a bicycle drivedrain.

I love to ride Biketrails with this bike and want to do long trips next sommer. The gear ratio is short enough to do technical uphills.

For me and I think for everybody torque or current control is a must!
(with an exponential trottle curve. That gives a very good low speed control)

If you build a bike for me, my perfekt Bike would be like my bike + :

Motor integrated in the frame
strong ISIS crank axle,
2kw continious everything programmable
optional 180mm singlecrown fork
27.5-29 wheels
space for 3 inch Tires!
18kg without Battery

I although would be interessted in a 2. Kind: Bicycle look, 3-5kw driving the left site but only for fun reasons, normally I don't have a use for it.
 
Assuming off-road use, on shared trails with mountain bikers, hikers, equestrians.

Must look like a bike, i.e, pedals, bike seat.
Must be quiet.
Must have enough torque and control to start from a dead start on steep single track. Assume 28% grade, start from dead stop. climb slowly at less than 10MPH.

That last point is the toughest one for hub motors and single speed RC motors. I encounter this all the time. If I'm climbing steep single track, I may have to pull over for hikers, horses, or other riders coming the other way. Once clear, i can't get a running start, nor can I just fly up once I get moving. I have to climb nice and slow in order to not draw attention or create a dangerous situation around a steep, blind turn. Currently, I have an Astro 3215 going through Matt's Davinci drive, and also geared down through the rear derailleur. That seems to work. But I would prefer a more robust 2 or 3 speed transmission.
 
So, cost........

What would you say is a good price for a box framed, long travel, mid drive, 8kw continuous (12kw peak), bike with a 2kwh pack? Something built to my personal quality and performance standards?

Be realistic, but give me some feedback.

Matt
 
recumpence said:
So, cost........

What would you say is a good price for a box framed, long travel, mid drive, 8kw continuous (12kw peak), bike with a 2kwh pack? Something built to my personal quality and performance standards?

Be realistic, but give me some feedback.

Matt
I suppose... the only way would be to compare it to competitors.
Approximate prices:
1. Stealth Bomber - $10k
2. Stealth Fighter - $8k
3. Conway E-rider - $8k
4. ETricks - $4.6k
and - a different animal - but setting an upper limit - the KTM Freeride E at around $14k


What you propose above is substantially better than the first 4 of these - although (with all due respect), I suppose that these are established companies, with warranties.

Therefore - $10k to $12k?
 
With your fabrication skills, I would expect a nice anodized aluminum framed bike with carbon fiber bash guards and CF side plates possibly doubling as stressed members. The rest of the bike would be high end DH components. As a buyer I would expect the bike to take similar abuse of it's DH bicycle counterpart with only a 15 pound handicap. The batteries would be carried in a custom made backpack with a hydration system and a USB dongle for charging electronic items. A safety disconnect and elegant cord system would allow freedom while on the bike but easily release during separation in the case of an accident. The backpack might actually release with the bike, leaving you with only the shoulder straps. and the batteries a safe distance away. The bike would look like a normal Freeride bike with a quick glance.

The complete package with backpack system would cost $10K and be completely awesome.

A 1 year warranty could be purchased for $1K extra and replacement parts would be readily available.

Another option to ease the mind of the prospective buyer could be teaming up with a well known CF frame builder and subcontracting the frame. This could demand a higher asking price and free up your time for other things.
 
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