Ibis Mojo HD and Bafang BBS02 marriage

Abagrizzli

10 W
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
98
Hi guys,

I need to electrify my Mojo, and seeking for the community help, since I'm a complete noob in this whole e-biking. After a lot of inquiry I found the motor that will suit me, my riding environment and riding style the best. It will be BBS02.

Now to the problems - the frame I try to couple with BBS02 is an Ibis frame, which means there's almost no straight lines. I can't have the battery on a rack, since it will just fall off. So I need to attach the battery to the downtube, but this limits me to compact, and thus powerful cells.

No to the first step questions, I can't figure out by myself, since I don't have a slightest idea:

1. 350W/500W/750W? I am 170-180 lbs fully geared and still loosing. I need the motor for singles and sometimes steep ups. Which option is the best, with the reliability at first?
2. Which battery to take, so it will be compact and strong?
3. Which vendor? I heard a lot of good things about em3ev, does his reputation worth the additional price?

I'm sure I will have a ton of questions to come, just please, help me to start...

Here's the photo of the frame. Not mine, but similar.
BI242B01.jpg
 
Check out the battery and box I used in my build thread for one idea. You'll have to reroute the rear shifter cable a bit and any battery box may snag on the cable guides.

People also put batteries in front of the handlebars and in backpacks.

I think you may have issues fitting the bbs02 with the swing arm flaring out...
 
Check out the battery and box I used in my build thread for one idea. You'll have to reroute the rear shifter cable a bit and any battery box may snag on the cable guides.

People also put batteries in front of the handlebars and in backpacks.

I think you may have issues fitting the bbs02 with the swing arm flaring out... I had the same issue and had to get a different front gear to fix clearance and alignment.

What kind of bottom bracket is it? How large are the existing front gears and how much clearance to the swingarm?
 
tln said:
Check out the battery and box I used in my build thread for one idea. You'll have to reroute the rear shifter cable a bit and any battery box may snag on the cable guides.

People also put batteries in front of the handlebars and in backpacks.

I think you may have issues fitting the bbs02 with the swing arm flaring out... I had the same issue and had to get a different front gear to fix clearance and alignment.

What kind of bottom bracket is it? How large are the existing front gears and how much clearance to the swingarm?

Actually I thought to attach the battery upon the cable guard - if I put some rubber underneath and tightly attach it with Velcro - it should stay put, right? I was thinking about smaller battery with more round corners. As an option, I can use bottle cage screw holes (which are in the outer downtube in Mojo frame)

Handlebars and backpack ain't an option, thought about it. Battery in the front will mess the balance of the bike when going up rocks, and battery in the backpack will need too much logistics in order to secure the connection...

Didn't quite get you on a swingarm problem. Do you mean chainline? I think this one I can solve with BB spacers?

Right now I'm running Shimano SM-BB90 bottom bracket with WolfTooth Narrow-Wide 30T single chainring.

I'm coming from MTB world, so I know there might be a problem with the chain falling from the chainring, but I think the rear derailleur clutch will solve it.
 
Abagrizzli said:
tln said:
Doh! BB90 is too wide, max bb width is 74mm... Maybe you can keep the ibis as your pedal only bike or trade for a bike that'll work with the bbs02

You serious? This is standard MTB bb for 68/73mm bottom brackets, in my case it's 68...

Sorry, I thought BB90 was wider, based on googling.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/complete-guide-to-bottom-brackets-36660/

68mm is good :)

With respect to batteries, Hobbyking lipos are compact and light. I like the 6s 16000mah type because
with just two batteries I have all the range I want. Also they are great value.

Lipos are more involved and you are trading off some safety/ease of use for lightness/power/value... so
there's some learning that goes along with choosing them.

With respect to the vendor choice, I went with Greenbikekit.

With respect to the choice of 350/500/750w, I think you'll enjoy the power the 750w kit gives you. Just be
sure your battery is capable of 26A (lipos will be).

Overall I love my BBS02 based build for single track / hills, looks like you have a super sweet frame to go
along with the BBS02 -- should be a sweet build!
 
tln said:
Sorry, I thought BB90 was wider, based on googling.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/complete-guide-to-bottom-brackets-36660/

68mm is good :)

Yeah, I thought we're having a scramble connection here ))))

tln said:
With respect to batteries, Hobbyking lipos are compact and light. I like the 6s 16000mah type because
with just two batteries I have all the range I want. Also they are great value.

Lipos are more involved and you are trading off some safety/ease of use for lightness/power/value... so
there's some learning that goes along with choosing them.

I'm investigating this whole area right now, and fairly overwhelmed with the amount of the info... I already studied, that LiPos are the best density-wise, which means they are the lightest and the most powerful, but need a lot of treatment. Which, again, can be balanced via purchasing smart charger and not draining them to the end... But i have another problem here, besides safety - I want them to look if not good, then at least OK visually, and I can't imagine, how to make 2 boxes to look not square... I'm checking now the battery that em3ev offers, they are slightly "designed" and looks like won't be trouble to install on the downtube

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=161

What do you think?

tln said:
With respect to the vendor choice, I went with Greenbikekit.

Where do they ship from? I'd really need a cooperative vendor...

tln said:
With respect to the choice of 350/500/750w, I think you'll enjoy the power the 750w kit gives you. Just be
sure your battery is capable of 26A (lipos will be).

Yes, I agree here. As far as I continue to get deeper into this whole thing, I realize, that 750W is the way, even though it's not street legal here. But who cares, nobody will ride in streets with this motor... I understand, that besides 26A there are a lot of other parameters I have to take into consideration before purchasing, I just don't know them yet... Something with 11s-12s-13s etc. and voltage (should be 48V and not 36V)..AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA too much info........

tln said:
Overall I love my BBS02 based build for single track / hills, looks like you have a super sweet frame to go
along with the BBS02 -- should be a sweet build!

I'm sure you do )))) This is my intention also! Since we don't have here any decent e-MTB for official sale, and I don't want to spend my budget for buying one for 5000 Euros before taxes, 8fun is the only way for now... Which is actually is good, 'cos any other legal option will be 250W, which sux...
 
Abagrizzli said:
I'm investigating this whole area right now, and fairly overwhelmed with the amount of the info... I already studied, that LiPos are the best density-wise, which means they are the lightest and the most powerful, but need a lot of treatment. Which, again, can be balanced via purchasing smart charger and not draining them to the end... But i have another problem here, besides safety - I want them to look if not good, then at least OK visually, and I can't imagine, how to make 2 boxes to look not square...

What, you don't like the duck tape look? :D

Perhaps you can reconsider the backpack solution? I'm not sure what people use for the connections in the backpack
but solving that is probably quite a bit easier than finding a good looking box that fits and keeps your carbon fiber frame intact.

You can always move to a mounted battery if you find a box that looks good enough :)

Abagrizzli said:
I'm checking now the battery that em3ev offers, they are slightly "designed" and looks like won't be trouble to install on the downtube

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=161

What do you think?

For a bike where it fits inside the triangle, it's a fine choice. I don't think its designed to be mounted upside down though. There's a rail
that the case slides along, but the rail might not take the whole weight of the battery... also I think it might interfere with the front tire.
FWIW its a lot longer (350 vs 200mm) and taller (130 vs 75mm) than the box I use.

Abagrizzli said:
tln said:
With respect to the vendor choice, I went with Greenbikekit.

Where do they ship from? I'd really need a cooperative vendor...

China. Em3ev is a very well respected vendor, if you have any qualms just go for him.

Abagrizzli said:
tln said:
With respect to the choice of 350/500/750w, I think you'll enjoy the power the 750w kit gives you. Just be
sure your battery is capable of 26A (lipos will be).

Yes, I agree here. As far as I continue to get deeper into this whole thing, I realize, that 750W is the way, even though it's not street legal here. But who cares, nobody will ride in streets with this motor... I understand, that besides 26A there are a lot of other parameters I have to take into consideration before purchasing, I just don't know them yet... Something with 11s-12s-13s etc. and voltage (should be 48V and not 36V)..AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA too much info........

tln said:
Overall I love my BBS02 based build for single track / hills, looks like you have a super sweet frame to go
along with the BBS02 -- should be a sweet build!

I'm sure you do )))) This is my intention also! Since we don't have here any decent e-MTB for official sale, and I don't want to spend my budget for buying one for 5000 Euros before taxes, 8fun is the only way for now... Which is actually is good, 'cos any other legal option will be 250W, which sux...

Yeah, there's lots of info and choices. I think you have a handle on the major parameters for the battery though... 26A, 48V, and 12 or 13s. 14s is also fine here.

BTW can you put your location (country) into your profile?
 
Em3ev will do custom battery packs. Now that the 20R and 25R cells are an option from em3 you can get lipo type power from a reliable and safe small package. Email them with your rough pack size needs and see if they can build a pack for you. More money than lipo but if you want to spend more time riding than building then its a good place to buy from.
 
tln said:
What, you don't like the duck tape look? :D

Perhaps you can reconsider the backpack solution? I'm not sure what people use for the connections in the backpack
but solving that is probably quite a bit easier than finding a good looking box that fits and keeps your carbon fiber frame intact.

You can always move to a mounted battery if you find a box that looks good enough :)

Yeah, the duck tape is the ultimate designed material :D You can have it in fabulous green or stunning yellow, or maybe a beeish yellow-black outstanding design... :D

The backpack solution is not valid yet, since the bike I'm tuning is my former bike, that I'm building for my wife, so she could ride with me (I want another bike for myself, so it's her gain). If I take in the consideration batteries in the backpack, plus water plus photo equipment - I don't think she'll be able to carry 10-12 kgs on her back... Not to speak about not healthy neighborhood of batteries and water...

tln said:
For a bike where it fits inside the triangle, it's a fine choice. I don't think its designed to be mounted upside down though. There's a rail
that the case slides along, but the rail might not take the whole weight of the battery... also I think it might interfere with the front tire.
FWIW its a lot longer (350 vs 200mm) and taller (130 vs 75mm) than the box I use.


Interesting... Would it be a huge request, if I ask you to measure your battery width X length X thickness, and also post a pick how it sits on the frame?

tln said:
BTW can you put your location (country) into your profile?

Done
 
DanGT86 said:
Em3ev will do custom battery packs. Now that the 20R and 25R cells are an option from em3 you can get lipo type power from a reliable and safe small package. Email them with your rough pack size needs and see if they can build a pack for you. More money than lipo but if you want to spend more time riding than building then its a good place to buy from.

Sounds interesting also... I read a lot of good things about Paul. Can you hit me with the link where he offers that, please? Cos I can't find it on his website...
 
Abagrizzli said:
Sounds interesting also... I read a lot of good things about Paul. Can you hit me with the link where he offers that, please? Cos I can't find it on his website...

Im not sure there is a link to custom pack building but I have emailed paul within the last year about a custom 72v pack and he got back to me with pricing. There is a small upcharge for the custom configuration but still very reasonable. The only stipulation on the custom pack was that it needs to be wide enough to incorporate the BMS. Without a BMS he wouldn't warranty the pack. If you wanted a really strange shape and didn't care about a warranty I think he would still do it. I can't speak for him though. When you figure out what voltage and capacity you want it wouldn't hurt to send them an email.

Cheap lipo packs are tempting but they can be dangerous. They also can require a confusing mess of wires to connect. You end up needing monitoring devices and a balance charger as well as parallel connection wiring. By the time you get through all the hassle of using them you could have just gotten an idiot proof pack from somewhere that is as easy to charge as a cell phone. If your wife is going to be using the bike and she doesn't want to understand all of the technical stuff about the batteries, that's even more reason to use a safe pack with a BMS and simple charger.

If you were to split the pack into multiple small packs for easy fitment on the bike, you increase the chances of someone getting hurt reconnecting wires if they get knocked loose. A pack like Paul would build keeps all the dangerous and technical stuff hidden so all you have to do is ride.
 
As I continue to get deeper into this stuff, the final requirements start to figure out.

I think I would want 750W 48V motor, because given it won't be used at full capacity, the reliability and longevity will grow.

Now, after reading a lot about the LiPo - they surely look attractive, with a lot of power in a small shell - I still can't afford the lack of the foolproofness. It goes both ways, personal security and if there will be any commercial potential for our market - it won't suffer the chance of any danger. So I need a battery that will be small, but powerful enough to give long range, maybe without the high km/h, since in any case it won't be allowed on streets.

So the second option, as far as my limited knowledge goes, is LiFePo, right?

tln,
Thank you for taking the photos. The downtube attachment seems as the most logical in any MTB case - I will definitely use this. Duct tape is a must :D I'm counting to avoid it somehow though :D You use LiPo, right? What it gives you range and power-wise? How come so much wiring? And I don't quite understand how your shock installed, it seems that something blocking your stroke?

Dan,
I will definitely consider this option. Sounds pretty simple. Thank you for giving this idea.
 
Abagrizzli said:
tln,
Thank you for taking the photos. The downtube attachment seems as the most logical in any MTB case - I will definitely use this. Duct tape is a must :D I'm counting to avoid it somehow though :D You use LiPo, right? What it gives you range and power-wise? How come so much wiring? And I don't quite understand how your shock instwalled, it seems that something blocking your stroke?

Yes, I use 2 of these:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__66310__Multistar_High_Capacity_6S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_EU_Warehouse_.html

About 40 miles range. Max power from the battery is 40A, but the max the BBS02 ever draws is 26A.

Re: wiring, you should have seen it when I had a light and a wattmeter installed! This is the "less wiring" version.
The BBS02 has quite a few cables and they are longer than my bike needs. Then the batteries each have wires for balancing
and the main power leads, which then get connected using a series adaptor, and then a homemade Y-cable to go to
motor + charger.

Re: shock, yes there is a loose velcro wrap keeping some of the cables in check. But it doesn't block the shock, the shock just pushes it out of the way.
Thats a Manitou Swinger shock, and yes a Kenda Small block 8 rear tire (Kenda Nevegal up front).
 
tln said:
Yes, I use 2 of these:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__66310__Multistar_High_Capacity_6S_16000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_EU_Warehouse_.html

About 40 miles range. Max power from the battery is 40A, but the max the BBS02 ever draws is 26A.

Re: wiring, you should have seen it when I had a light and a wattmeter installed! This is the "less wiring" version.
The BBS02 has quite a few cables and they are longer than my bike needs. Then the batteries each have wires for balancing
and the main power leads, which then get connected using a series adaptor, and then a homemade Y-cable to go to
motor + charger.

Re: shock, yes there is a loose velcro wrap keeping some of the cables in check. But it doesn't block the shock, the shock just pushes it out of the way.
Thats a Manitou Swinger shock, and yes a Kenda Small block 8 rear tire (Kenda Nevegal up front).

Sh/t, I want to keep it simple with the wires, sounds like LiPos are out :|

How do these look? One of them has the right voltage, but low current (right? this is what A is about?), and the second has low both... But form and size are exactly what I'd want.

http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2014-A8-DWK2.2KJQY
http://www.battery-matrix.com/24V12AH-Cylindrical-Li-ion-Battery-for-E-bikes.html
http://www.greenbikekit.com/36v-samsung-bottle-ebike-battery.html

I'm a little bit close to the whole shock tuning industry, and what you're doing - not so healthy for the shock. Actually, I'd swap this Manitou for something that really works and dump the small blocks - this tire is horrible everywhere besides asphalt and especially as a rear tire...
 
I'm checking now the battery that em3ev offers, they are slightly "designed" and looks like won't be trouble to install on the downtube

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=161

What do you think?

That's exactly the battery i got. 11aH (29E cells) Works a treat and gives me easily 40 miles (65km) and more since i pedal quite a bit. BBS02 @500W/18A.

Did a 56km trip a couple of days ago and was only just down to 3 bars when i got home. used about 6aH out of the battery.

Not entirely sure how it would mount hanging from rather than sitting on the tube, but i strongly suspect is do-able. The battery slides onto the rack and locks pretty firmly. Issue would be attaching he rack to the tube securely and possibly making it more water resistant than stock?

If it was me i'd attach the rack using multiple stainless hose clips, and then wrap 3 heavy duty velcro straps around the lot to take some of the support load off the rack. A bit like using the rack to locate the battery in place rather than carry it entire weight.

Ahhh..just had a look at the photo is the op. Nice bike. :) But yup, a fun challenge mounting a battery.
 
astmacca said:
That's exactly the battery i got. 11aH (29E cells) Works a treat and gives me easily 40 miles (65km) and more since i pedal quite a bit. BBS02 @500W/18A.

Did a 56km trip a couple of days ago and was only just down to 3 bars when i got home. used about 6aH out of the battery.

Not entirely sure how it would mount hanging from rather than sitting on the tube, but i strongly suspect is do-able. The battery slides onto the rack and locks pretty firmly. Issue would be attaching he rack to the tube securely and possibly making it more water resistant than stock?

If it was me i'd attach the rack using multiple stainless hose clips, and then wrap 3 heavy duty velcro straps around the lot to take some of the support load off the rack. A bit like using the rack to locate the battery in place rather than carry it entire weight.

Ahhh..just had a look at the photo is the op. Nice bike. :) But yup, a fun challenge mounting a battery.

I would really appreciate a close up photo of how it sits on the tube :D I doubt it will give me such a range with rocky uphills though... How does it go up?

The securing thing is definitely an issue, a big one. I understand, that the battery weighs 3-6 kilos easily, and on harsh terrain it is a heavy load, that can come off... Actually, the issue is such, that I'm considering to loose the idea to electrify the Mojo, and skip to Shift R5, which is a budget MTB, but has a straight triangle frame. A have no way of securing the battery to carbon frame, without compromising its integrity, what a shame... Since the tubes are not straight and uniform, it means I can secure the battery only with one Velcro strap, 'cos I'm afraid stainless hoses will damage the carbon.

Here's the actual bike. Of course, its suspension will need a huge upgrade, thinking of 140mm XF fork and I don't know yet about the rear shock, probably will take some tuned specimen from our tuning lab.

700311-roll-call-show-us-your-haro-please-1%3D1.jpg


It is a little triangle, so nothing will fit inside, but at list it has straight downtube, which I can use...
 
What would you say about very compact and light LiIon 48V 20A battery priced at 950 USD? Domestic manufacturer though, which means quality, no shipping, no customs, problem free warranty etc.

The data as shown:
Size: 290 x 140 x 90 mm
Weight: 4.6 kilos
Voltage: 48V
Capacity: 20A/h
Chemistry: Li-Ion
Life expectancy: over 500 cycles
Safety: UL approved (USA)
Suitable for engines: up to 1000W
BMS: included
Overcharge safety: 4.35V-cell / 60.90V-pack
Undercharge safety: 2.75V-cell / 38.50V-pack
Discharge current: 25A
Maximum discharge current: 40A
Nominal charging value: 50.4A


Here's the link for those who use Chrome and can translate the page to English:
http://www.batteries.co.il/index.php/--2881

They have also cheaper Samsung cells for 48V 12Ah and 48V 14.5Ah, priced at 605 and 685 USD accordingly...
 
Abagrizzli said:
Sh/t, I want to keep it simple with the wires, sounds like LiPos are out :|

How do these look? One of them has the right voltage, but low current (right? this is what A is about?), and the second has low both... But form and size are exactly what I'd want.

http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2014-A8-DWK2.2KJQY
http://www.battery-matrix.com/24V12AH-Cylindrical-Li-ion-Battery-for-E-bikes.html
http://www.greenbikekit.com/36v-samsung-bottle-ebike-battery.html

I'm a little bit close to the whole shock tuning industry, and what you're doing - not so healthy for the shock. Actually, I'd swap this Manitou for something that really works and dump the small blocks - this tire is horrible everywhere besides asphalt and especially as a rear tire...

Yeah, I'll clean that up. What tire do you recommend? For trails and the occasional road. I was thinking of WTB nano raptor on my next wheel build.

Switching bikes is a good decision! Maybe you could find a bike with triangle room? It will make your build a lot easier
 
Abagrizzli said:
What would you say about very compact and light LiIon 48V 20A battery priced at 950 USD? Domestic manufacturer though, which means quality, no shipping, no customs, problem free warranty etc.

The data as shown:
Size: 290 x 140 x 90 mm
Weight: 4.6 kilos
Voltage: 48V
Capacity: 20A/h
Chemistry: Li-Ion
Life expectancy: over 500 cycles
Safety: UL approved (USA)
Suitable for engines: up to 1000W
BMS: included
Overcharge safety: 4.35V-cell / 60.90V-pack
Undercharge safety: 2.75V-cell / 38.50V-pack
Discharge current: 25A
Maximum discharge current: 40A
Nominal charging value: 50.4A


Here's the link for those who use Chrome and can translate the page to English:
http://www.batteries.co.il/index.php/--2881

They have also cheaper Samsung cells for 48V 12Ah and 48V 14.5Ah, priced at 605 and 685 USD accordingly...

Looks good!
 
I doubt it will give me such a range with rocky uphills though... How does it go up?

I use mine mainly as a commuter. Any off road is easy trails. Though, when i did go all out using throttle and high PAS to exhaust the battery to get a figure for watt hours it would put out, i worked out i'd get around 40-45km.

Wow, you are not making this an easy one are you?? :) I reckon if you mount anything like mine under that main tube it will interfere with the front wheel.

I have seen some pics of bikes with the batteries mounted on top of the top tube but looking at those pick always makes me uncomfortable for some strange reason?? :shock:

What about a beam type rear carrier?? Like:

http://www.torpedo7.com.au/products/DACRSNNMP/title/delta-megarack-post-haste

Which has a limit of 20lbs / 9kg and is 110mm wide and 375mm long in the platform.

On Pauls site:

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=128

The 14 aH rectangle pack battery weighs 3.7kg and is 138mm by 203mm wide. You'd need to build a simple box to protect it but i'd be surprised if you couldn't get it mounted that way for less than 5kg for the battery and box plus 0.52kg for the carrier. That's well within the weight limit for the carrier and i am sure that there are other people on here who would be able to tell you of a carrier like that would give you problems off road??
 
tln said:
Yeah, I'll clean that up. What tire do you recommend? For trails and the occasional road. I was thinking of WTB nano raptor on my next wheel build.

Switching bikes is a good decision! Maybe you could find a bike with triangle room? It will make your build a lot easier

Not that I'm trying to tell you what to do :D , but scratched shaft ain't worth it. Actually, scratched shaft on this shock means shock goes to the garbage. :D

Tire - WTB Nano Raptor also wouldn't be my choice for trails in general, and especially on an e-bike. It's a XC tire, which means small knobs, it rolls good, but actually won't provide the level of grip and cornering that you should have on an e-bike. Not to speak about its mud shedding properties (none). E-bike goes faster, turns faster, and is heavier, than the standard MTB, so the tires should be at the same level. Especially given that the weight isn't that important. I'm using Maxxis DHR 2.35 (2.3 also would be good) on the rear as my default choice Maxxis DHF 2.5 on the front. This set suits me in any conditions. For less harsh conditions (hardpack without sand, stones, roots and mud), I can go down to Maxxis Advantage 2.1 on the rear, and Ardent 2.25 front. It's not the best possible of all, but I tried it and it works for me.

Bike - this is my only other option... Has to be full susp, has to be small size. Which means no space inside the triangle.
 
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