The Beast Mid Drive. In Beta Testing.

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

The Beast Mid Drive. In Beta Testing.

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 27 2015 8:41pm

This kit is now in beta testing. No further information will be available until the beta is finished.

I would like to introduce to you a project that I have been working on since last November. It is a high power mid drive that I affectionately call The Beast. I wanted to create an uncompromising, durable, heavy duty off road mountain climbing mid drive capable of tackling steep inclines without pedaling for very long periods of time. I wanted it to be very strong, relatively light, simple, reliable, and look good. Many of you will recognize the shape from previous mid drives however this mid drive does a few things differently allowing for a large powerful motor in a narrow format. This mid drive is intended to be a no pedaling design. The pedals are there for show as you pass the cops and to get you home if you run out of juice.
The attachment DSC00978.jpg is no longer available
DSC01002.jpg
DSC01002.jpg (183.04 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00981.jpg
DSC00981.jpg (122.26 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00993.jpg
DSC00993.jpg (183.97 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC01005.jpg
DSC01005.jpg (139.48 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00987.jpg
DSC00987.jpg (174.82 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
Specifications:
-Up to 3000 watts.
-Up to 40 amps.
-50-100 volts
-Top Speed: 65 kph @ 3000 watts (flat hard surface with 91 Kg (200 lbs) rider)

Features include:
-6061 aircraft aluminum construction.
-High heat dissipation design by integrating the motor into the aluminum structure.
-7075 hardened aircraft aluminum jackshaft
-Durable and light black Delrin plastic pant and finger guards.
-High power motor, larger and more powerful than GNG for added heat dissipation.
-Professionally powder coated
-Short, medium and long lower brackets to accommodate a wide range of down tube shapes.
-Integrated motor heat sensor.
-25mm wide primary belt drive
-219 chain secondary drive
-Simple belt and 219 chain tensioner system.
-Directly compatible with inexpensive Azusa Type B 12t-18t 219 sprockets.

As you can see from the specifications and features, this is a serious high power machine. I have had my prototype up and running since late January and I can tell you that this thing really is a beast and is an excellent climber. I have been blown away by how capable and strong this thing has turned out to be. Here are a couple pictures with it installed on my bike. Note that I am using the 73mm long bottom brace because of the funny shape of my down tube.
DSC00977.jpg
DSC00977.jpg (148.16 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00989.jpg
DSC00989.jpg (185.7 KiB) Viewed 8269 times


Shown in the pictures from left to right is the 73mm long bottom brace, 68mm medium bottom brace, and 68mm short bottom brace. Available brace sizes are 68mm short, 68mm medium, 73mm short, 73mm medium, 73mm long.
DSC00978.jpg
DSC00978.jpg (129.31 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00979.jpg
DSC00979.jpg (157.55 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC00996.jpg
DSC00996.jpg (199.57 KiB) Viewed 8269 times







.
Attachments
DSC00986.jpg
DSC00986.jpg (145.66 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
DSC01001.jpg
DSC01001.jpg (188.77 KiB) Viewed 8269 times
Last edited by jdevo2004 on Apr 18 2015 1:06am, edited 29 times in total.

User avatar
spinningmagnets   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11528
Joined: Dec 21 2007 10:27pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 27 2015 9:07pm

This is awesome! If I lived where there were mountains I would be begging to be in on it, but its very flat where I live in Kansas...

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 28925
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by amberwolf » Mar 27 2015 9:55pm

Looks like an appropriate name. :)

Too bad Phoenix has almost no terrain worthy of it...though it would also be powerful enough to get really heavy cargo bikes and trailers full of stuff moving really quickly in stop and go traffic.


Just curious--is the reason for a 10-speed cassette to make sure it will work with one, or is the end product only intended to work with those? Or is it just so that it can be tested with the 42 tooth for rreally low gears?

Spicerack   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 602
Joined: Jan 28 2011 2:09am
Location: Perth, Western Oz

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Spicerack » Mar 27 2015 10:16pm

Does Australia count as Oceania? Some people say it does and some say it doesn't...

I could cover off on those criteria- I was thinking about buying a GNG for my next dual susp build as we have some good off road mountain biking here. I could also test it on my daily 25km commute to work (Norco Shore 2 with 9C hub, lots of home made 18650 battery packs)!

I also like the fact that it can be used without pedalling for long periods of time- it's not that I'm lazy, I just appreciate the epower...

What are you looking for- statement of claim or similar posted up on the forum or privately? Not that I care about going public- I like to spread the ebike word as much as possible anyway. I'd also be a good test bench for the heat handling side of things as it can get a little warm here in Western Australia.
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=37972

jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 27 2015 10:20pm

Spinningmagnets: Too bad! If there is anyone here on ES forums that I would like to have test my kit it is you!

Amberwolf: The kit can use any speed cassette but I have found that the weakest part of the system of getting power to the ground in extreme terrain is the bicycle chain and the cassette. The bicycle chain can start skipping over the cog in extreme circumstances forcing the rider to reduce throttle and move slower. By using the largest first gear cog available on the market it allows the bicycle chain to have more grip and prevents damage from skipping. I am pretty sure that most duel suspension mountain bikes are sold with 10 speeds these days though I may be mistaken.

I would actually really like it if one of the mods were to test my kit. Hopefully one of the mods has the right qualifications!

jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 27 2015 10:26pm

Spicerack wrote:Does Australia count as Oceania? Some people say it does and some say it doesn't...

I could cover off on those criteria- I was thinking about buying a GNG for my next dual susp build as we have some good off road mountain biking here. I could also test it on my daily 25km commute to work (Norco Shore 2 with 9C hub, lots of home made 18650 battery packs)!

I also like the fact that it can be used without pedalling for long periods of time- it's not that I'm lazy, I just appreciate the epower...

What are you looking for- statement of claim or similar posted up on the forum or privately? Not that I care about going public- I like to spread the ebike word as much as possible anyway. I'd also be a good test bench for the heat handling side of things as it can get a little warm here in Western Australia.
You sound like you have the right stuff! Oceania in my books is New Zealand and Australia. Anyone who wants to enter the competition should PM me here at Endless-Sphere with their details. The more I know about you and your qualifications, the more I would be willing to consider you.
Good Luck!

User avatar
recumpence   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5301
Joined: Apr 19 2008 8:33am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by recumpence » Mar 28 2015 4:20pm

Ok, not to rain on the parade but, this system is hugely close to lightning rods kit. You are even using his pulley. (Yes I see a few differences, but essentially, it is nearly the same).

Don't get me wrong, the system looks well thought out. I just wanted to point out what others may not be comfortable pointing out.

I'm wondering how you obtained his pulleys. Did he sell you a bunch?
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

User avatar
Kepler   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3239
Joined: Nov 08 2009 9:22pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Kepler » Mar 29 2015 4:57am

Got to say I was thinking the same thing as Matt.

Also seems like a big commitment list for the tester and then for the tester to end up with nothing 6 months down the track. Personally the privilege of using the drive for 6 months is no real compensation for all the work involved in providing R & D feedback on someone else's product especially when the tester is providing the platform to carry out the testing.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/

User avatar
Thud   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2686
Joined: Aug 20 2009 6:20am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Thud » Mar 29 2015 7:19am

1st,
Nice job on the fabrication & finish of you product. it looks good from here.
I can only assume lightnig rods knew he was selling components to a potential competitor (is that the same motor as his "big block" offering?)

My only real question is: Have you stabilized the crank freewheel with an additional bearing as gng attempts to?

I think competition is healty for this tiny market of e-bike stuff.
Now if you can reduce the weight to say 5lbs. for the drive unit & inovate a battery housing that will provide adequate protection for the dangerous cargo, you'll be home free.

Best of luck & ignore the haters when they show up. :mrgreen:
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

User avatar
recumpence   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5301
Joined: Apr 19 2008 8:33am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by recumpence » Mar 29 2015 7:41am

Call me old fashioned, but, I have a really hard time when people directly copy other's designs. It has happened to me multiple times in the E-bike arena and when I was manufacturing RC helicopters.

Please understand, I am not a hater. I am pointing out something that really should be addressed. Competition---YES, copying---NO.

Just saying.......

Also, I am sure Mike will not chime in on this. So, I will be his advocate.

I am sure I will get flamed for this, but, I take this kind of thing personally because it has happened to me multiple times. Mike is a good guy and this is a boutique market. We all know each other here. Lets call a spade a spade.

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

stocaz   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 28
Joined: Nov 01 2012 4:00am

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by stocaz » Mar 29 2015 7:48am

Thud wrote:1st,
Nice job on the fabrication & finish of you product. it looks good from here.


I think competition is healty for this tiny market of e-bike stuff.


Best of luck & ignore the haters when they show up. :mrgreen:
Good comment.
the truth is: the original product is Gng by jon chan, the OTHERS are just copies, better or not, improved or not, just copies. So we all have to thank him. ( ALL)
other philosophical, intelligent, complicated reasoning is just silly

cheekybloke   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 301
Joined: Mar 01 2013 11:54am
Location: sheffield u.k

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by cheekybloke » Mar 29 2015 7:56am

I noticed you ran the secondary chain on both sides of the tensioner on a couple of your pics.
Have you made a boo boo?
Darren

User avatar
recumpence   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5301
Joined: Apr 19 2008 8:33am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by recumpence » Mar 29 2015 8:06am

stocaz wrote:
Thud wrote:1st,
Nice job on the fabrication & finish of you product. it looks good from here.


I think competition is healty for this tiny market of e-bike stuff.


Best of luck & ignore the haters when they show up. :mrgreen:
Good comment.
the truth is: the original product is Gng by jon chan, the OTHERS are just copies, better or not, improved or not, just copies. So we all have to thank him. ( ALL)
other philosophical, intelligent, complicated reasoning is just silly
No, the truth is, the only thing left from GNG is the motor housing. The system that Mike is offering is so radically departed from what GNG designed that it is a completely different species at this point. This drive is a near identical copy of Lightningrods drive.

Try having something you did a huge amount of work on copied by someone and THEN comment on it......

Again, I know I will get flamed for this (though more people should be calling this kind of thing out). Again, lets just call it what it is.

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

User avatar
Thud   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2686
Joined: Aug 20 2009 6:20am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Thud » Mar 29 2015 8:10am

I will be the 1st line to bash this if these guys are standing on LRs hard work without at least giving a heads up.

Brand loyalty will produce enough.....lets call it "playful trash talk" :D those will be the "haters" I refer to.

But I do see a sbstantial differance in this vs LR. That is: using the side plates to bolt to the motor heat sinking it....(edit: does LR do this too? I haven't paid that close attention latley :oops:)

I wonder how GNG feels about LR selling a complete kit? Improved, adjustabe plates that fit more bikes is one thing, but a whole kit (albeit a much better kit)?

Come to think of it, gng didnt invent the bottom bracket mount either.......I am sure Miles could research its origins to a member on here somwhere 3+ years ago. I hope they compensated that guy with a % of eack one sold, Right?


Personaly, i think the only true review of this offering as a "system" would be shipping one to Enyman ( you all know who i mean) & see if he can make it work. :wink:
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

stocaz   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 28
Joined: Nov 01 2012 4:00am

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by stocaz » Mar 29 2015 8:15am

Thud, frankly speaking..you're right, totally.

best thing ever, let's give one kit to the boy and see if it works or not

cheekybloke   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 301
Joined: Mar 01 2013 11:54am
Location: sheffield u.k

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by cheekybloke » Mar 29 2015 8:21am

+2 on the Thud comment,
Give one to E moaner and then brace yourself for a tirade of earache
Darren

User avatar
recumpence   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5301
Joined: Apr 19 2008 8:33am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by recumpence » Mar 29 2015 8:23am

stocaz wrote:Thud, frankly speaking..you're right, totally.

best thing ever, let's give one kit to the boy and see if it works or not
Too funny, I agree! :wink:

Back to what Thud said, no mention was made of Mike's work in this. I have had a few things copied (even on this forum), and sometimes my name is mentioned. Fine. That helps a bit. At least it is known where a given idea originated from at that point.

Anyway, yes, there are some very minor differences (but they are very minor, indeed).

As long as we all know the origin of this drive, we can move on. I do not want to trash this drive. I just wanted to point out what others are afraid to because of the flaming that tends to happen any time anything negative is mentioned.

Game on gents! :wink: :mrgreen:

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

User avatar
speedmd   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2840
Joined: Nov 14 2012 12:16pm
Location: new england

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by speedmd » Mar 29 2015 9:13am

E moaner
:lol:

There is room for many variations of the GNG design. LR did a great job in bringing in a reliable belt side and tension adjustments. Lots of other stuff to work out /simplify are left to do and would be worth exploring. We had some post back on another thread that showed a way to adjust tensions on both sides with a single mount adjustment. Hoping that some one will bring something like that in at some point. This kit with idlers is much the same as the gng.

dusan   100 W

100 W
Posts: 153
Joined: Aug 31 2014 2:10pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by dusan » Mar 29 2015 9:18am

Maybe I missed something but I still didn't understand why non-hub "experts" are presenting 1-3kW mid drive kit as
off road mountain climbing mid drive capable of tackling steep inclines without pedaling for very long periods of time
For me, best mountain climbing ability can have only properly geared low wattage kit. Maybe 350W version kit with 64mm and 104mm BCD chainrings can adequately handle any mountain hill. Firstly you can't ride technical climbing with high speed, secondly how much consume 3kW beast when steep climbing?
Honestly, power is not mandatory for steep climbing but for top speed.

User avatar
speedmd   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2840
Joined: Nov 14 2012 12:16pm
Location: new england

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by speedmd » Mar 29 2015 9:24am

What is your def of hill climbing?
Image

User avatar
Thud   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2686
Joined: Aug 20 2009 6:20am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Thud » Mar 29 2015 9:26am

Off topic:
Emaayan, i must apolgise for dropping you name in this thread. If I have offended you, I am sorry. I admit it was an unprovoked jab at your online persona here on ES, if you were my customer, i would have refunded all of your money & shipping costs too....just to get you off my customer list....that is just how i see it.

That said & in your defense:
What we need is a bolt on full performance kit that doesn't require:
1) custom tools(or if required they come supplied w/the kit ie 219 chain breaker)
2) an advanced knowledg of the controllers & setting them up. (should be plug & play)
3) a degree in current battery maintanance.

We need batteries for the masses to be nearly self maintaining...a reliable bms to stop over discharge & a plug & play charging / balancing out fit.

Without a working, hands on experiance of ellectronics or mechanics (bicycle set up & even making connection to the battery)
guys like emaayan are set up for failure. Its not his fault he wanted to join the party....its our failure as manufacturers to solve all the issues in play & make him succesfull.

Part time bully thud-rant off.
Last edited by Thud on Mar 29 2015 9:28am, edited 1 time in total.
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

dusan   100 W

100 W
Posts: 153
Joined: Aug 31 2014 2:10pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by dusan » Mar 29 2015 9:26am

For me?
Attachments
0.jpg
0.jpg (42.66 KiB) Viewed 7772 times

jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 29 2015 10:09am

recumpence wrote:Ok, not to rain on the parade but, this system is hugely close to lightning rods kit. You are even using his pulley. (Yes I see a few differences, but essentially, it is nearly the same).

Don't get me wrong, the system looks well thought out. I just wanted to point out what others may not be comfortable pointing out.

I'm wondering how you obtained his pulleys. Did he sell you a bunch?
A valid question. I sent LightningRods a PM last night because I wanted him to look over my response before I posted it. Unfortunately this thread has blown up over night and he has not been able to get back to me yet. I will post it now and hope he is cool with everything I say.

LightningRods is well aware that this kit uses his 90t belt pulleys. I made him aware in December about my plans and asked him if he would supply me with pulleys. I was clear with him that this mid drive would have the same overall shape as the LightningRods and GNG Mid Drives and would use a similar motor, 25mm belt and 219 chain but would have a different philosophy about the design. LightningRods is not just a manufacturer of mid drives, he also manufactures and sells parts for ebikes.
That being said, I actually own a LightningRods Mid drive. I was one of the first 12 to be on the waiting list. I can tell anyone who is in the market for a high power mid drive that the LightningRods Kit is a very good kit. It is basically the jack of all trades when it comes to high power Mid Drives and offers a huge range of gearing ratios for people who want to pedal or not. IMO the LightningRods kit is the best price performance high power mid drive on the market and I have no plans to compete at that price point.
Though I really liked the LightningRods Mid Drive, I wanted something that was specifically designed for what I wanted to do. What I wanted to do was ride non stop off road up big mountains on extreme terrain without pedaling. I designed my kit to maximize heat dissipation, be geared for no pedaling, and be extremely rigid. I am not saying the LightningRods kit can not climb mountains, and until more testing is done, I will not know for sure if mine does it better. Either way, I will never make direct performance comparisons between my kit and his.

The fact is my kit is not for sale, LightningRods is and that makes all the difference.

jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 29 2015 10:10am

Kepler wrote:Got to say I was thinking the same thing as Matt.

Also seems like a big commitment list for the tester and then for the tester to end up with nothing 6 months down the track. Personally the privilege of using the drive for 6 months is no real compensation for all the work involved in providing R & D feedback on someone else's product especially when the tester is providing the platform to carry out the testing.
Not sure how driving an ebike around can possibly be considered a huge commitment. It is way too fun to be work.

jdevo2004   100 W

100 W
Posts: 158
Joined: Apr 13 2014 8:26pm

Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 29 2015 10:22am

Thud wrote:1st,
Nice job on the fabrication & finish of you product. it looks good from here.
I can only assume lightnig rods knew he was selling components to a potential competitor (is that the same motor as his "big block" offering?)

My only real question is: Have you stabilized the crank freewheel with an additional bearing as gng attempts to?

I think competition is healty for this tiny market of e-bike stuff.
Now if you can reduce the weight to say 5lbs. for the drive unit & inovate a battery housing that will provide adequate protection for the dangerous cargo, you'll be home free.

Best of luck & ignore the haters when they show up. :mrgreen:
The motor is very slightly larger than his small block. It uses 30mm magnets.

As for the crank freewheel, I am not sure what you mean. Do you have a picture of it? I have not had any problems in the crank area. The aluminum plate that I designed mate the freewheel, 219 sprocket and the chain ring is extra thick to prevent any possible deformation from the heavy loads.

Post Reply