The Beast Mid Drive. In Beta Testing.

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
dusan   100 W

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by dusan » Mar 29 2015 2:37pm

Aft, ecospeed or Ego are not really usable for pedaling guys.
Again, I can't understand why company sells road kit as off road, even without pedaling ability. Sorry, I can't continue with such non sense dialog.

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 29 2015 3:10pm

dusan wrote:Aft, ecospeed or Ego are not really usable for pedaling guys.
Again, I can't understand why company sells road kit as off road, even without pedaling ability. Sorry, I can't continue with such non sense dialog.
You could certainly use this with pedaling if you wanted to. All you would need is a larger secondary sprocket like 80 teeth or higher and to use it at a lower power level like 1500 watts where pedaling actually helps rather than hinders the performance of the mid drives. I just did not design this kit with that in mind so the pant guard is only useful with 66-70 teeth sprockets. No one says you can not modify the kit to fit your specific needs. I am just marketing it towards the no pedaling crowd and also looking for beta testers in the no pedaling crowd.

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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by Kepler » Mar 29 2015 5:58pm

jdevo2004 wrote:
Kepler wrote:Got to say I was thinking the same thing as Matt.

Also seems like a big commitment list for the tester and then for the tester to end up with nothing 6 months down the track. Personally the privilege of using the drive for 6 months is no real compensation for all the work involved in providing R & D feedback on someone else's product especially when the tester is providing the platform to carry out the testing.
Not sure how driving an ebike around can possibly be considered a huge commitment. It is way too fun to be work.
Believe me, what you are asking both in terms of required equipment and testing protocols is a significant commitment and investment for the tester. I imagine there are plenty of people out there willing to do it for nothing but in my opinion if you want to attract the serious players that are really capable of meeting the criteria you have set, you will need to dangle a bit more of a carrot then just offering a 6 month lend of the drive.

Nothing against the actual drive, it looks like a solid piece of kit and I wish you luck with your endeavor.
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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by jdevo2004 » Mar 29 2015 6:16pm

Kepler wrote:
jdevo2004 wrote:
Kepler wrote:Got to say I was thinking the same thing as Matt.

Also seems like a big commitment list for the tester and then for the tester to end up with nothing 6 months down the track. Personally the privilege of using the drive for 6 months is no real compensation for all the work involved in providing R & D feedback on someone else's product especially when the tester is providing the platform to carry out the testing.
Not sure how driving an ebike around can possibly be considered a huge commitment. It is way too fun to be work.
Believe me, what you are asking both in terms of required equipment and testing protocols is a significant commitment and investment for the tester. I imagine there are plenty of people out there willing to do it for nothing but in my opinion if you want to attract the serious players that are really capable of meeting the criteria you have set, you will need to dangle a bit more of a carrot then just offering a 6 month lend of the drive.

Nothing against the actual drive, it looks like a solid piece of kit and I wish you luck with your endeavor.
Point taken and the terms of the competition changed about half an hour ago. ;)

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by speedmd » Mar 29 2015 6:27pm

I am with you Kep. I have been to the movie with this type of offer more than once. You give valuable input and they go around telling everyone it was their idea. Stuff that would have taken them years to learn if ever. Seen it many times when some one comes in when a product is on third base and then changes it slightly/cosmetically and tries - succeeds in a patent or patent pending on your design features. I ask again what specifically is new / better in this design. Simple question.

If it is for steep off road, why not use a chain on the prim. side? Why copy the belt /pulley? Is the bb setup different? Crank? Jack shaft? Changes to mounting sheets? If you have made legitimate improvements to those types of system components, more power to you and thanks from this member. Just would like to know so I can feel better about this seemingly poor potential product intro.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by macribs » Mar 29 2015 7:35pm

I don't know what to think here. On one side I would hate to see e-bike vendors pull a software industry and start with patent trolling.
As that shit is just a hinder for innovation. On the other hand I think one should give credit where credit is due. If OP is starting to sell a product that is equal a LR I think they should work out some sort of deal. If the beast in facts prove to stand on its own feet it is a different story.

Look at things in a bigger view. What is LR and beast really? A China motor mid mounted. With a reduction jackshaft.
Is it even possible to claim IP on that? In all honesty it has been done before. Plenty of times. As for patenting such a design my understanding is that neither one of them would be able to claim a patent. Cos that is just a layman's thinking.

But aside from patent there is also possible to trademark a design, or even a solution. Is there such trademarks filled?

One thing is for sure, stuff like this is lawyers feast. They can easily do so many billable hours both of you will be in debt for the three next generations. I guess my point is try to work this out as gentlemen. Keep working on your individual projects and keep moving forward rather then getting caught up with litigations, lawsuits and lawyers. Gentlemen agreement will benefit both of you as well as the e-bike community.

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by jk1 » Mar 29 2015 7:58pm

One of the advantages i can see BEAST VS LR is the allumnium brackets and 128mm BB, but i thought that with the LR kit and the 148mm BB their was no room to fit Alumnium ? as u would need thicker material then steel to be as strong.

From looking at your picture to fit your 128mm BB you have moved the jackshaft very far away from the BB and hence the cranks clear becuase the jackshaft is so far away it misses the end of the crank ? Which obviously works but the downside is the look and weight of the brackets being so far away i.e it's not a compact design anymore and it stounds out a lot more,the closer to the BB and hence smaller the less obvious it is that its a overhigh powered ebike.

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by litespeed » Mar 29 2015 10:05pm

Even though the intentions were relayed and OK at first it appears we have had a change in heart. That is a shame that it's ok to use on a kit that was similar to its design but not the new design. Poetic justice?

In my opinion it's goes by many names.....monkey see, monkey do. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Blah, blah, blah.....

These designs have been borrowed from one another for some time. That is OK! I like that there will be different designs available. More than one way to skin a cat they say, although the cat may not enjoy it.

Get back to your kits and keep making them awesome!

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by wendell » Mar 30 2015 12:00am

Beautiful work...can't wait to see the beta tests..

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by wildharemtbkr » Mar 30 2015 12:36am

This whole thread is certainly not in the spirit of endless-sphere, is anyone paying royalties to Justin for buying the forum and allowing the free sharing of ideas? No, of course not. He most likely wouldn't even want them. I'm sure he would accept donations. :) This forum is awesome, let's keep it that way!

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by thepronghorn » Mar 30 2015 12:47am

Looks like a pretty cool kit. I'm impressed by the machining. While the design is similar to lightningrods' design, it's not like lightningrods' design was very original or innovative. I mean, you've got some pulleys, sprockets, a belt, and a chain. You have to tension each part. How else are you going to put it all together?

I don't think there's much intellectual property to be claimed when you're just mounting a motor on a bike. The original GNG reminded me of motomoto's bike which was built with parts from recumpence.

Edit: The very concept of intellectual property here is not really very productive for the overall goal of promoting the funnest, lowest impact method of transportation around.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by macribs » Mar 30 2015 3:18am

@LR Business is earning and forward momentum. What do you think will happen to your solution if the beast go public? Will you sell less then before? Will you maybe sell none? Or do you think your brand, your customer service and your reputation build over years will still have a loyal fan base that will continue to grow as your product line continues to evolve and become even better? What is the problems for R & D to succeed? Well cash flow is often one of them.

You are in a position where you can continue your main work, your main product line and also keep improving and improve your products, service and customer relation. And as a side business you now have the opportunity to sell certain parts in larger then usual quantum. This way you can influence your income and earnings and if you think of it - you can actually influence your competitors price point by what you charge for your parts.

Like it or not - you are both small timers (in a global scale economy) in a market that is yet not main stream.There should be room for both of you. And when it goes main stream some Chinese companies will sell your products so cheap you will have only one way to combat that. Quality in your brand. The world keeps spinning even if both of you turns bust. And there will be other beast's or even a newer product that is not really similar to your just better, cheaper or both.

You might be right LR. Maybe you do hold IP rights over that design. Then again you might not. Could be you are also using others IP rights. Think about it. Worst case you drag this to court and spend an insane amount of time and money to fight this thing, neglecting your production, sales and earnings and you could stand to loose. Or go belly up before you even make it to court due to greedy lawyers.

I say rethink the whole thing and consider selling parts to the beast. That way you are not only at the table but you are also in a place where you can focus on your business, earning money and moving forward.

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by Ypedal » Mar 30 2015 8:40am

Macribs ... take some time and read the two previous pages.... instead of jumping to conclusions.
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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by macribs » Mar 30 2015 10:16am

I already did. As far as I can tell those guys had some kind of agreement going from the start.
But that is really neither here nor there.

GnG started this design. Various ES members have done modifications including LR. But AFAIK LR is the one actually making and selling his improved design. If someone then improves the design of LR who has the IP rights then? GnG, LR or OP?

It does not matter what you and I think. We are all foot people. IP rights gets decided in courtrooms. Led by a greedy gangs of lawyers. And in the end the court will decide who is right and who is wrong. If it ever goes that far. Most likely they both be tapped out and out of business before case even makes it to court. Thats why I said they should both focus on growing their business rather. And one thing to remember is that no matter what the new guy does - LR has a well known reputation. A long term ES member who has a long list of pleased customers. That is valuable assets. And for all pleased customer he has one that can advocate his products.

I am not jumping to conclusions nor do I give one side more right then other. I am simply pointing out that this is not a clear cut case and from where I am standing I think they will gain most if they talk this out.

Just an ordinary bystanders 2 cents.
Last edited by macribs on Mar 30 2015 9:58pm, edited 2 times in total.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by emaayan » Mar 30 2015 10:28am

i agree with macrib's ,besides L-R is already is starting to branch out into other areas like full frame design, while gaining more and more presence. he also stated he's interested in doing other mid-drives with other motors, the gng one isn't exactly the only one in the market after all

i'm just wondering about the near or distant future, when laser cutting devices may reach consumer markets like 3d printing.
if you think you're seeing hot-rodding boom now, what would happen when almost anyone be able to make plates for motors.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. 3 Beta Testers Wanted!

Post by TheBeastie » Mar 30 2015 10:54am

spinningmagnets wrote:This is awesome! If I lived where there were mountains I would be begging to be in on it, but its very flat where I live in Kansas...
When I read the first post I instantly thought of you sm.
I would still elect u as a guy I want to see do a review of this beast, your reviews and insight have been truly wonderful to read over the years.
Maybe you could just make some holiday trips to somewhere mountainy for a bit.

Later inclusion..
As for the whole copying bit, I think LR has nothing to worry about as long as this new beast mid drive is in fact sold for at least twice the price as originally promised.
Most folks are cheap and like to save money anywhere they can, leaving it up for that last %5 to buy super premium.
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by Miles » Mar 30 2015 6:01pm

All this talk about intellectual property rights is quite amusing..........

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by stocaz » Mar 30 2015 6:31pm

Words of wisdom finally come..

but that's okay, anyway

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by ions82 » Mar 31 2015 3:06am

Is it a knock-off of a knock-off? Perhaps.

Can a 10-speed bicycle drivetrain hold up to a constant 3,000 watts? I'm not betting on it. That's a lot of power. The only time I've seen 3,000 watts on a bicycle was when two huge dudes were starting on a fixed-gear tandem. It twisted the frame.

Should this "Beast" prove to be a reliable system, can it even be produced at a price point that would be comparable to the kit from LR? Unless everything is produced in-house on equipment that is completely paid for, I highly doubt it.

It's pretty obvious that this system is derived from the LR kit. It's also no secret that the LR is derived from the CNG. If someone wants to try and make something better, I say go for it. It won't take long to find out if it's even reliable/feasible/profitable (important ingredients for any sort of business venture.)

My bet is that the Beast will be too much power for the bicycle components, and it will cost too much to produce to ever make it a big seller. But damned if it doesn't look pretty friggin' awesome! Personally, I love the idea of blurring the lines between e-bike and electric dirt bike.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by emaayan » Mar 31 2015 3:19am

3000 watts, Too much power? Tell that to l-r's bigblock..:)

Or mat's astro kit..5 hp is it?
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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recumpence   100 GW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by recumpence » Mar 31 2015 7:09am

emaayan wrote:3000 watts, Too much power? Tell that to l-r's bigblock..:)

Or mat's astro kit..5 hp is it?
I pull short bursts of 24,000 watts (28,000 battery current) from two of my twin motored bikes.

Bear in mind, I am not running through the bike's pedal drive train, however. I am using bicycle parts, but only very high end stuff and only through a dedicated left side drive.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by emaayan » Mar 31 2015 7:32am

recumpence wrote:
emaayan wrote:3000 watts, Too much power? Tell that to l-r's bigblock..:)

Or mat's astro kit..5 hp is it?
I pull short bursts of 24,000 watts (28,000 battery current) from two of my twin motored bikes.

Bear in mind, I am not running through the bike's pedal drive train, however. I am using bicycle parts, but only very high end stuff and only through a dedicated left side drive.

Matt
i'm aware of that, however ions82 mentioned that the only time he saw 3000 watt at work on a bicycle was when it came from 2 gorillas who twisted the FRAME.
cheelybloke i believe is planning to run 10k (i think) on his rig.
i've seen youtube video of gng on 4500 watts.
so.. more then 3000 watts on a bicycle that survived.

personally , give me something that runs at 1500-2000 watts, uses the gears without breaking them, reaches 53 kph, and doesn't need me to replace parts every month (nor needs to have custom wearable expansive parts) , and i'll be eternally grateful! even if the initial expense could be go to 2000$, i don't mind so long as it stands the test of time. bonus points for being able to use torque sensor.
for the 5 or so years most of my free time has been "devoured" by the search for such a holly grail. honestly sometimes i feel like a hamster in a wheel never making progress.
if jdevo's comes up out to production and won't be afraid to sell one to me, i'll be 2nd inline.

still needs to check my gng 2015 though.. by i digress.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by cwah » Mar 31 2015 7:36am

Incredible!
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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by t0me » Mar 31 2015 9:10am

Glad Ions82 brought it up because its what I was thinking from the beginning.
Anything above 2kw is starting to really strain bike components, not just in my experience but it seems others have found the same.
Rear derailleurs can't hack it, and who can afford a Rohloff! Now if there was say, a 5 speed igh or even a well designed 219 chain and sprockets/derailleur setup...
Otherwise, the rpm range of these motors isn't enough when you gear them enough to climb.
Or you have to run much higher voltages instead (so bigger series packs so more battery space).
Kona Stink-E - GNG based mid-drive - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 16#p839416
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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: The Beast Mid Drive. Giving 3 Away to Beta Testers!!!

Post by speedmd » Mar 31 2015 11:02am

I think you guys should give a good look at the gear box threads! 3kw is no issue IMO. Trying to drive it through a crankset-jack, yes, a potential issue. Long as you limit the torque, the frames should have little to no issue with this level of power. Why not go motor - direct to rear wheel if you don't care about matching pedal speeds. This size /kv motor should have no issues once you work out the controller side. Would imagine the rotor would stick together well past 8000 rpm.

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