"Mad tailbone" Specialized Demo7+cyclone+active heat sink

chupa

1 W
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
50
Hi all.

This is my next project.


0_113519_bb4e7315_XXXL.jpg



Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwNy9t5a51w



Sorry , i speak in Russiаn in video.


About this bike:

Frame - Specialized Demo7 2010
Fork - Marzocchi 380 C2R2 2014
Motor - cyclone 1650w with hardened gears , with active heatsink (two small fans with temperature sensor for adjusting airflow)
Controller Kelly KBS-X 72181 with HS option.
Battery - Li-po Zippy Compact 5000mah per cell , 14s4p (approx 1kwh)
Maximum speed 66kph (limited by transmission and motor turns) ;
Rear hub Shimano Alphine8 .
Continued mechanical power: 3 kw
Peak mechanical power: 4,5 kw .
Effecience 80% on 3kwt mehanical power.
Torque on first gear approx 290nm.

Mechanical power and effective of motor was measured and tested on the home made stand.
Stand for adjusting motor: http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=24921.0
(Text in Russian , but you can use google translator).

After a short time, the controler and the motor were installed on a frame.
Fastening of the motor is printed on the 3D printer. Some parts of transmission were made of the titan with laser cutter.

Test on road:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgv7n097haA

Offroad test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCY1qZAbTM

Bike was made for offroad driving only, but shows not bad results on asphalt.
If to add one gear, it is possible to increase maximum speed a bike up to 75 kph.

The voice on video was distorted for a funny.

My previous project with active heatsink: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=56666&p=845919&hilit=chupa#p844915
 
hi you done great work cyclone motors You Crazy rus dude. you don't need cooling fans, with -20 weather :shock:
lucky in some ways , how long have the case harder sunwheels lasted, and new motor? you del you last youtube vids why
/? do you work for the ussr amy, in a tank ?

thank you
 
aCeMadMod said:
hi you done great work cyclone motors You Crazy rus dude. you don't need cooling fans, with -20 weather :shock:
lucky in some ways , how long have the case harder sunwheels lasted, and new motor? you del you last youtube vids why
/? do you work for the ussr amy, in a tank ?

thank you


Uuuahahahahhahh... WORK IN A RUSSIAN TANK ! YES ! Tank is a T-34 !

Weather now +15 degree celsium.

Sungears take approx 8000km in prewious project with same power. (approx 4.5kw battery or 3 kw mechanical)
About cyclone - cyclone can not work in this power without active heatsink.. No radiators cool a rotor and magnets so effectively as airflow pass to inside the motor.
I overheated the motor to 120g degrees without any consequences for magnets. The project of modernization a cyclone of the motor exists from the middle of 2013 and the project successfully passed and tested. It already fourth bike. The weight of the motor together with a reducer and the cooling system of 4 kg with small sizes.
I like this motor because after a simple upgrade it turns into the wolf in sheep's clothing.
 
you really work on tanks you sould know this one?

What's the difference between the Type T-34 and the T-34?

you plz share the fan control schematic and pic agian here ?
i love to copy it

why you change from kelly control s then to Adaptto MINI-E ? now to kelly control agian ?

love your bike this time . :D
 
aCeMadMod said:
you really work on tanks you sould know this one?

What's the difference between the Type T-34 and the T-34?

you plz share the fan control schematic and pic agian here ?
i love to copy it

why you change from kelly control s then to Adaptto MINI-E ? now to kelly control agian ?

love your bike this time . :D
I use SUNON PF40561BX-000U-A99 coolers. 2pcs in serial.. http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/DCFAN/PF4056_U.pdf

Schematic is very simple. I use China LM2576HV DC-DC (12v output) converter with "Enable" pin. Thermosensor is AD2200 STZ inserted between motor coils tooth and filled silicone thermo compound.
DOC000239831.jpg


Signal line from termosensor connected to LM339 analog comparator. Output from comparator wired to "Enable" DC-DC pin. Coolers is On when temperature more than 35 degree.


About adappto - no more adappto with "high speed" mid drives motors. Controller is good but not best for high speed motors.
 
Could you please post more pictures of your demo 7 projetct?
I watched some of your videos and they were quit informative and I'm really impressed, this is a great work!!!

Another question, which internal gear hub would you recommend since you're using 5000 watts?

I'm driving now with super fat kmc 910 chain and double sprockets but would like to get some gears again... cause it's single speed now.

Spasibo bolschoj :D
 
sascha2770 said:
Could you please post more pictures of your demo 7 projetct?
I watched some of your videos and they were quit informative and I'm really impressed, this is a great work!!!

Another question, which internal gear hub would you recommend since you're using 5000 watts?

I'm driving now with super fat kmc 910 chain and double sprockets but would like to get some gears again... cause it's single speed now.

Spasibo bolschoj :D

I have not any pictures of this project. Only jokly video because this project impossible to copy. But my construction have not special parts or very difficult custom components. It is classical middrive with pedal freewheel.
All parts i purchased in ebay and moskow bike shops via internet.
I have 3D printer and i can make model in Kompass3D. The motor fastening has been printed .. Printer was working 3 days without pauses.


Another question, which internal gear hub would you recommend since you're using 5000 watts?

After test stand operations now I separate electrical watts and mechanical watts on rear wheel. I think that you mean electrical 5000watts ?
Fr this power i use only Shimano Alfine 8 hub. Only alfine 8 . On the Internet there are many photos of the broken Nexux 3 or Alfine11. Breakages were from foots (pedaling). The motor will break these hubs. is possible not to doubt.
There is information that Rohloff will work too with 5000wt. But its price. I am not able to afford even to begin experiment with Rohloff because internet have very few information about this hub.
 
Awesome build! yes its a wolf in sheeps clothing..

i bet no one could guess by looking at it that is 3kw continous capable motor. hell i dont think the GNG/LR type kits can do that power continous ? and i bet this is a lot lighter? what is the total weight of the motor system?

it basicaly looks the same as the 200w cyclone motor , unlike the big and Bulky GNG/LR style kits with huge external jackshafts that just scream illegal power. With this if you let of the power and peddle by pedestrians they would never guess by looking at it....

I notice in your other thread you adjusted the motor timeing to get max efficiency, what did you adjust it to ? it has a spot for 0 or 6 degress advance, or did you drill a spot somewhere else ?


How did you harden the gears ?
 
I harden gears with MAPP gas in my kitchen.
Hardenong sungears : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bm6T6StVYY
rotor gear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIJRy4kfm80

But you shall have skill of a hardening of metal. Otherwise the shaft or a sungear can will collapse. Once I had such problem with a reducer.

About timing or angle corr.
All controlers have a time delay between the actual passing of a magnet through a pole and a signal from the Hall sensor. The time delay appears in the controler when the signal passes through RC filters. Plus the controller spends some time for preparation of a signal to processing. As the result - on high turns a signal from a hall sensor has time delays.
I saw as my MINI-E the controler perfectly destroyed such time delays. With mini-e my cyclone found the second force. But this time I decided to use Kelly in which there is no setup of advance angles.
I deleted a magnetic ring on a rotor of the motor and printed new ring with use of 3x2 mm of neodymium magnets.

0_108cf7_dc15179d_XXXL.jpg


0_108cf8_f8a2f0d2_XXXL.jpg




This ring precisely repeats a field of a magnetic ring of a cyclone.
Rotation of a magnetic ring I precisely set up turns of rotor for Kv=150.
For voltage 60 volts, turns of a rotor of the motor shall be 9000 without loading.
I checked efficiency of the motor on the stand and saw 83% at the mechanical power of 3.2 kw. Rotation of a ring on a half of degree in any side reduced efficiency !!!

For high-speed motors it is important to set up an optimum angle for each controler+motor.

This procedure can be made without stand. For this purpose, turn of a ring, it is necessary to set turns for your Kv of motor. The factory Kv of cyclone = 150. At a voltage of 60 volts and 100% filling of PWM the turns shall be 9000 rpm.

Sorry my English is no good.

It is possible to increase voltage up to 62 volts. Efficiency of the motor will be increase. Heat production will decrease. But I am not able to do it - there is no necessary battery today.


The sungears WITHOUT hardening after 500km with 5kw power.
0_ee948_9049ab10_XXXL.jpg


Russan tank T-34 :-D

0_10cb77_e10e77ca_XXL.jpg
 
chupa said:
I have not any pictures of this project. Only jokly video because this project impossible to copy. But my construction have not special parts or very difficult custom components. It is classical middrive with pedal freewheel.
All parts i purchased in ebay and moskow bike shops via internet.
I have 3D printer and i can make model in Kompass3D. The motor fastening has been printed .. Printer was working 3 days without pauses.


Another question, which internal gear hub would you recommend since you're using 5000 watts?

After test stand operations now I separate electrical watts and mechanical watts on rear wheel. I think that you mean electrical 5000watts ?
Fr this power i use only Shimano Alfine 8 hub. Only alfine 8 . On the Internet there are many photos of the broken Nexux 3 or Alfine11. Breakages were from foots (pedaling). The motor will break these hubs. is possible not to doubt.
There is information that Rohloff will work too with 5000wt. But its price. I am not able to afford even to begin experiment with Rohloff because internet have very few information about this hub.


For how long do you use your alifne 8 now? Already destroyed one?

The best on the bike is the air filter^^ Looks so damn cool :D

 
hey i was ask a bad joke ? with the tank you did not it i guess

What's the difference between the Type T-34 and the T-34?

The Type T-34 is taking anti-depressants.

how long do your chian and gears last ? at 3000 watt

Coool tank by the Way . i never knew you own one With a Ca 3 metter ? what it for to much firepower , lol :lol:
 
how long do your chian and gears last ? at 3000 watt
The first bike with alphine8 passed approx 9000km. ( 2 chain Shimano HG-40 is changed).
The second project (with alphine8 too) passed 7000 km. Owner told me that 2 chains is changed now. Pictures of this project here http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=24334.0

"Mad tail bone" passed 500km now.. :) but this bike have BMX chain 1/2х1/8 .
All those bikes have shimano alphine 8 hub gear.

The weigth of cyclone motor (with gear) + active heatsink is 4.1 kg.

I have not any wattmeters because not need for me. I used adappto mini-e watt meter long time and also I learned to understand the accumulator without wattmeter. I like to see summary voltage of battery. In future i want send to handlebar indicator the voltage of most feeble cell via RF . No wattmeters for me more.
 
Awesome stealth build ! so much more compact and high power then other builds on here.

Why did you have to change the motor magnet ring won't the stock one work at 58.8v ?

Did you use any case hardening compounds ? the videos are in Russian so can't here what you are saying :p

Are you sure the Kv is 150 ? Bill bushnell posted here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=66278

that its 125kv for the motor with the external controller. I think what he did first was get neutral timing, normally they come advanced 6 degrees which could make you think the Kv is 150 but its just because it was advanced.

Also why do you need the high speed Kelly option at 58.8v ? most people just use the normal Kelly at that voltage ?"
 
Great seeing real mods on the cyclone and that it's holding up to the higher power levels. If I get tired of mine, I will follow your modifications.
 
Why did you have to change the motor magnet ring won't the stock one work at 58.8v ?

The stock magnet ring have tooth which deepened in a rotor. I can not rotate stock ring. Also i have strange effecr - i think that is a synchronization failure because current more than 79-80amps can kill a magnetic field of a ring. Sensors of the hall give not the correct code. The problem appears at full power more than 4+ kwt.
Before experiments with the active cooling system I had problems with a motor overheat. I have four degaussed rings. I solved this problem by means of the custom ring. Also I have some rotors without rings and it is simpler to me to make a new ring on the 3D printer, than to ask cyclone seller to send these rings. The Chinese and Taiwanese don't send such spare parts. The broken or degaussed ring = the new motor.

Did you use any case hardening compounds ? the videos are in Russian so can't here what you are saying

No special compound. Just water. No cold. Water should be room temperature. In video i told that temperature of part should be approx 820 degree C. No MORE !
After hardening, you should heat a detail to 250 degrees and to sustain within 10 minutes. Otherwise the shaft or a sungear can burst next day or during use the motor. One case already has been.. I overheated a detail to 900-950 degrees and didn't make annealing. As result - broken gear on rotor after 2 week..

Are you sure the Kv is 150 ?
I am not sure. But Kv150 allows to adjust the motor on the maximum efficiency with Kelly KBS-X 72181 controler without use of the stand.
If you have other controler, then it is necessary to carry out anew tests at the stand with turning movement of a ring for achievement of the maximum efficiency. In my case with such small motor, each percent of efficiency reduces heating of the motor.
Anyway you see results on video. The bike goes 60+, and the motor is in limits of 70-80 degrees.

Remember that measured by efficiency of 80% ... This result was been with reducer which is completely clogged by dense oil.


that its 125kv for the motor with the external controller. I think what he did first was get neutral timing, normally they come advanced 6 degrees which could make you think the Kv is 150 but its just because it was advanced.

6 degree is a electrical degree or real degree ? The turn of ring +- 0.5 degree around optimum point can destroy maximum effectivity.

I long time experimented with angle of rotation of a ring and i saw interesting results and understood that factory angle of a ring gives at most 75% of efficiency with Kelly the controler. Perhaps with other controlers with stock ring the result will be better. or is worse. anyway, for achievement of maximum efficiency, it is necessary to adjust angle of ring for each controler with using stand.
Now I use a set - the controler + the adjusted motor for this controler. Motor+controller is a one unit now for my bikes.
 
kfong said:
Great seeing real mods on the cyclone and that it's holding up to the higher power levels. If I get tired of mine, I will follow your modifications.

Remember , i can give just working idea , but i can not give to you detailed instructions "How to Make".. The reason - machines and opportunities can differ for us . Your technique can deeply differ with ours.
 
Ahh ok the rotor magnet degauss that's why you made your own, do you think it degauss due to heat or due to magnet force of 80 amps ?

6 degrees is the standard spot on the cyclone hall sensor board, it has a hole for 0 + 6 and -6. So I think this is electrical degrees ? I think Bill turned this to about 4 degrees with an external controller to get neutral timing. I am planning to use the Kelly KSB72v controller also.

How come you don't go a higher voltage like 72v and lower current ? For 58.8v I don't think you need the high speed option, but for 72v maybe you will need HighSpeed Kelly option ?

On the video you have a nice dyno ! Do you have any info on what parts you used to make the dyno ?Is that a 5 or 10kw hub and how to you apply the load ? what is the load sensor you used ? what did you use to get the tacho RPM reading from a phase sensor?
 
do you think it degauss due to heat or due to magnet force of 80 amps ?

I took measurements of magnetic force of a ring which worked for a year. Measurements on the lathe by means of a hall sensor. Peaks of magnetic poles were displaced and there were not strictly at an angle 90 degrees. Also I observed a difference in magnetization of poles. A difference not critical but there was a synchronization failure on a kelly controllers with 4+kwt.
Also magnetic ring is magnetized much more weakly and after turning of a ring , the works of hall sensor was influenced by rotor magnets. After measurements I made the decision to make a new ring with stronger magnets.


6 degrees is the standard spot on the cyclone hall sensor board, it has a hole for 0 + 6 and -6. So I think this is electrical degrees ?

Yes , i know about thise holes on PCB. But rotation of a ring gives more exact control. Why it is desirable to change a ring I wrote above.


How come you don't go a higher voltage like 72v and lower current ? For 58.8v I don't think you need the high speed option, but for 72v maybe you will need HighSpeed Kelly option ?

78v in a planes of future. I can not charge 78v battery with my charger now. Also large number of serial of cells not really good idea for low-power accumulators.
For an example. Accumulator 20s. Li-Po.
At the beginning of a charge tension will be 20*4.2=84
At the end of the category - 20*3.3=66
Difference of 18 volts. It much. It is possible to use Li_Fe the accumulator 20s but it will be very heavy.
I purchased HS option for my Kelly on the future.


On the video you have a nice dyno ! Do you have any info on what parts you used to make the dyno ?

Loader - Quanshun 3000w hub motor. 3 phase diode bridge, then nichrome coil in a water tank as final loader.
 
district9prawn said:
After your magnet ring failed, did you ever try a sensorless controller?

Is this controller can give big torque from start ? Max erpm more than 40.000 ? Is this controller can adjust timings in software ?
 
On the dyno you made what did you use to measure RPM of the hall sensor ? its a nice little display.

Also for the dyno what did you use the measure the torque? you mention in the video the radio to the load sensor, what load sensor is that ?

That custom magnet ring is interesting , does that copy what the standard magnet ring is supposed to show the halls ? and does that sit in the normal position and use the normal hall sensor board ?how does it attach to the rotor ?
 
On the dyno you made what did you use to measure RPM of the hall sensor ?
Yes. I use Hobby King tachometer.
TU-Taco(1).jpg

I deleted IR sensor in tacho. and connected output hall signal via resistor 10k to IR input. Then choise "4 blade" mode on tacho. The display showing real RPM without calculates.
For calculate quansun RPM i used formula - (PRM cyclone / 9.33 ) * (cyclone output gear / quanshun hub gear).

Also for the dyno what did you use the measure the torque?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DN4q6_v5cM

Watch video attentively. I speak in Russian , but you will understand me.

does that copy what the standard magnet ring is supposed to show the halls ?
Yes. No any difference between custom ring and stock. But custom ring have strong magnet field than stock ring. And i can turn custom ring on any angle. Also no any changes on PCB. Halls is stay on previous positions.
 
Awesome work Chupa, I'm about to harden a new set of gears and try up the current to 85A peak, your video and description give me confidence that it will hold up to the task. I have one question about the Mini-E Adappto controller with the cyclone/headline, did you find it to be quieter than the Kelly or standard Cyclone controller? Keep up the great work!
 
bunya said:
I have one question about the Mini-E Adappto controller with the cyclone/headline, did you find it to be quieter than the Kelly or standard Cyclone controller? Keep up the great work!

Yes ,but with 'sine' mode...

For reduction of a sound I wrapped the motor and reducer in a plastic cover. The cover have thickness 1sm.
The cover works as damper and reducer sound destroy in the base. Thus vibrations don't extend on a bike frame and the sound is much more silent than the motor without wrapper.


Here I show 3D model of fastening. It is possible to see thickness of walls of plastic in a reducer zone. https://youtu.be/S0qT2C5umKk
 
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