new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 02 2018 8:54am

Tommm wrote:
Apr 30 2018 6:04am
Can you use an old front derailleur as the chain guide?
Yes but only with 32t / 42t chainring,actually I am using 22t / 40t.

I don't know if I ride hard or there is something wrong in my build....but with this setup during 15 mins of hard-offroad-climb the engine became hot (difficult to keep the hand on):
  • Fat Bike rear wheel 26' + 4' of rubber
  • KBS72121X set at 50% of max power (presumably 45-55 Amp)
  • bike geared front 22t rear 36t
  • Engine geared 14t engine 48 crankset
Does something have a similar build?

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » May 02 2018 4:06pm

Jonnydrive

You ride hard. Maybe it’s your off road gearing. I’ve got a basic set up as far as gearing and I’ve been at the to hot to touch (for long) point myself. We like to push the cyclone and it can handle it for the most part.

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 03 2018 12:57am

Skaiwerd wrote:
May 02 2018 4:06pm
Jonnydrive

You ride hard. Maybe it’s your off road gearing. I’ve got a basic set up as far as gearing and I’ve been at the to hot to touch (for long) point myself. We like to push the cyclone and it can handle it for the most part.
Thanks Skaiwerd,
it is reassuring to know that I am not the only one experiencing engine heating.
I am going to granny the off road gearing (maybe 40 or 42t).

The Cycone 3k is an amazing piece of hardware, there is no comparison with the cyclone 1680w (I have had a lot of trouble with it) in term of torque and noise. It is a shame that there is not a temperature sensor..

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 03 2018 6:30am

It is a shame that there is not a temperature sensor..
RETARDED!

Nothing could be much easier, remove 4 bolts on the left side motor cover and glue thermistor to the lamanates.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on May 03 2018 6:46am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 03 2018 6:33am

Why overheating??

Hard Riding?

Give me a break. This is lame reasoning that does not address the cause of the problem.

Unless ambient temps are over 80F, you are in too high of a gear for the torque required.

Simple solution: Keep motor rpms high...

By using lower gears, dah?

My study was done using the 40 amp controller and my body weight on the ebike... At 60 amp what temp?? the ambient temp would be lower than 80F.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 03 2018 8:07am

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 03 2018 6:30am
It is a shame that there is not a temperature sensor..
RETARDED!

Nothing could be much easier, remove 4 bolts on the left side motor cover and glue thermistor to the lamanates.
Assuming that I am retarderd, please clearly describe the process to put a temperature sensor on the motor explaining: the procedure, the thermistor and the glue suggested, the best position for the sensor, the cabling and the path to avoid a messy work, maybe with some pics or reference link.

This can be a good contribute to the thread

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » May 03 2018 8:19am

Couldn’t you affix it to the outside of the motor and make adjustments to compensate? For us non cycle analyst users would there be a way using Adriano or pie to set it up and cut controller power or throttle power? Oh wait there’s this...

Anyone know what the temps would be? A set point as to when to kill the motor before damage happens.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 03 2018 10:29am

Code: Select all

Johnnydrive,

DingusMcGee wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 5:30 am
It is a shame that there is not a temperature sensor..
RETARDED!

Nothing could be much easier, remove 4 bolts on the left side motor cover and glue thermistor to the lamanates.
Assuming that I am retarderd, please clearly describe the process to put a temperature sensor on the motor explaining: the procedure, the thermistor and the glue suggested, the best position for the sensor, the cabling and the path to avoid a messy work, maybe with some pics or reference link.
Such descriptions as you request have already been posted on this thread by several people. Go Find Use search tool? When searching for "temperature sensor", you will likely pull up your complaint, "It is a shame....". How useful?

Retarded -- meaning -- slowed down
Last edited by DingusMcGee on May 03 2018 10:57am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 03 2018 10:34am

Skaiwerd,

I have used a fish tank temp controller made by Chinese on eBay -- $12

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » May 03 2018 12:09pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 03 2018 10:34am
Skaiwerd,

I have used a fish tank temp controller made by Chinese on eBay -- $12
Anything on maximum motor temperature? Even a temperature that one would say no motor could survive. What good is a sensor and related electronics if there is nothing to go by? Even a “ I cooked mine at 350 deg c” is something, I’d set mine to 300 degrees centigrade then to start. Yeah that’s hot not real motor termps. Sorry if this is in old posts.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 03 2018 1:49pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
May 03 2018 12:09pm
Anything on maximum motor temperature? Even a temperature that one would say no motor could survive.
good question,
Kelly KBS-X provides a quite wide range of "overhearing", from the manual:
"(2)Controller Stop Output Temperature
Value range: 60℃~170℃"

on KLS 130°C seems to be the default
"High Temp Cut Out °C: Motor High Temp Cut Out, nominal value 130°C. Range: 60~170"

I know, it is not so helpful.... a plastic gear could sustain 130°C ? for how long?

it will be useful known an overhearing temperature for the cyclone 3k, and also a delta temperature for an external temperature sensor

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 03 2018 1:59pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Sep 30 2016 7:43pm
I think I read somewhere that the side seals on sealed bearings typically are at risk above 120C / 284F

In a dirty environment (some ride in a dusty / muddy off-road ride, and other ride on asphalt) fried seals will lead to early bearing demise. I will try to find an authoritative resource to verify, but...you have been warned, so do as you please.

I think 200F / 93C is a reasonable limit in the hottest part of the motor, due to solder melting, halls frying, etc...
Here a partial answer to my question from an authoritative source...

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 03 2018 2:15pm

jonnydrive wrote:
May 03 2018 1:49pm
Skaiwerd wrote:
May 03 2018 12:09pm
Anything on maximum motor temperature? Even a temperature that one would say no motor could survive.
good question,
Kelly KBS-X provides a quite wide range of "overhearing", from the manual:
"(2)Controller Stop Output Temperature
Value range: 60℃~170℃"

on KLS 130°C seems to be the default
"High Temp Cut Out °C: Motor High Temp Cut Out, nominal value 130°C. Range: 60~170"

I know, it is not so helpful.... a plastic gear could sustain 130°C ? for how long?

it will be useful known an overhearing temperature for the cyclone 3k, and also a delta temperature for an external temperature sensor
Controller and motor temps are two different things. The cyclone controllers (at least the 40 and 60a ones) already throttle down when hot.

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 03 2018 2:22pm

Tommm wrote:
May 03 2018 2:15pm
jonnydrive wrote:
May 03 2018 1:49pm
Skaiwerd wrote:
May 03 2018 12:09pm
Anything on maximum motor temperature? Even a temperature that one would say no motor could survive.
good question,
Kelly KBS-X provides a quite wide range of "overhearing", from the manual:
"(2)Controller Stop Output Temperature
Value range: 60℃~170℃"

on KLS 130°C seems to be the default
"High Temp Cut Out °C: Motor High Temp Cut Out, nominal value 130°C. Range: 60~170"

I know, it is not so helpful.... a plastic gear could sustain 130°C ? for how long?

it will be useful known an overhearing temperature for the cyclone 3k, and also a delta temperature for an external temperature sensor
Controller and motor temps are two different things. The cyclone controllers (at least the 40 and 60a ones) already throttle down when hot.
The settings above are related to Motor Temperature

Tommm   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 03 2018 3:49pm

jonnydrive wrote:
May 03 2018 2:22pm
Tommm wrote:
May 03 2018 2:15pm
Controller and motor temps are two different things. The cyclone controllers (at least the 40 and 60a ones) already throttle down when hot.
The settings above are related to Motor Temperature
Interesting. If the motor doesn't have a sensor in it(and I haven't read it does) you would need to wire one up to somehow be compatible with that controller. Tbh, I'm going the arduino route anyway, automatic temp throttling sounds like a great idea.
Last edited by Tommm on May 03 2018 3:52pm, edited 2 times in total.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by spinningmagnets » May 03 2018 6:09pm

What good is a sensor and related electronics if there is nothing to go by? Even a “ I cooked mine at 350 deg c” is something, I’d set mine to 300 degrees centigrade then to start
.

As I already mentioned, there are several parts at risk when temps rise, including:

bearing side seals
Halls
generic solder

However, I'd also like to remind everyone that most ebikes use a "medium grade" of affordable neodymium, so...they can permanently lose some of their magnetic power if they get too hot even once...

Also, if your motor is reaching more than 160F / 71C, then...I personally feel that you are converting way too many battery watts into waste heat. I still think 200F / 93C is a good "hard ceiling", but...if you are actually reaching 200F, then you should sell that motor while it still runs, and buy a bigger motor (or swap to a smaller-diameter rim, or both...).

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 04 2018 7:14am

Checking my CA-v3 i see my temp shut down settings are quite close to Spinning Mag's temp limits.

The settings are: retard allowed power when motor reaches 90C and shut down all power to motor at 96C.

All BDCMs obey Thevanins Equivalent Circuit for Power. At maximum motor output power the efficiency is 50%. This max output occurs in rpm very close to 50% of full no load rpm. Your gearing makes some difference in overheating but always the other 50% of the energy bill is heat when at max power.

I have done some testing with active motor air cooling which has been reported earlier in this thread. I was able to reduce final motor temp on a 6 mi road climb by 30C degrees. I did not add more allowable amps to see what reductions I might get in run times and still not burn up the motor.

But as SpMag says get a bigger motor if you are burning the c3000 up or add active cooling. My electric car has active air cooling but the manual says drop to an lower gear if the overheat light comes on. Another option for some would be to loose some weight so the motor does not lug as much when on a hill etc.


Another way to reduce chances of overheating is to only do these all out runs when the ambient temperature is quite low -- maybe move to Antarctica?

And if you need all out speed do not even bother with this puny motor....

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 04 2018 8:23am

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 04 2018 7:14am

But as SpMag says get a bigger motor if you are burning the c3000 up or add active cooling. My electric car has active air cooling but the manual says drop to an lower gear if the overheat light comes on. Another option for some would be to loose some weight so the motor does not lug as much when on a hill etc.
So you are the one who did the copper pipe. It looks and works great, but I wonder if you need to filter the air somehow if doing something like that(fins or similar) as a daily?

Instead of a pipe it would look like this on the same side of the motor, perhaps another pair looking backwards for the air exit:
Image

If course, in an active cooling setup, filtering would be straightforward with a small round filter in front of a small ~20w 12v electric fan pushing air in.
Image

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Cyclone with new Luna 3D bracket and Phaserunner

Post by Aerialpixels » May 05 2018 11:30pm

Hey guys. Thought I'd chime in. Build is done and while I've only ridden it a few times, I figured this and subsequent posts may be helpful. I've had a BBSHD running 88v for 6 months in combo with a Phaserunner. Top speed has hit 53Mph and its been dead reliable. Thought I'd try a cyclone to see if I liked it.
One thing I can definitely say right out of the gate is that my kit included the green Bac 800 controller from Luna Cycle and I hate it. The Phaserunner is based on it but the difference is Grin actually gives you support and a manual. Getting a manual for the ASI controller is like pulling teeth. The Bac 800 comes with a 24 wire connector and Luna cuts off every wire they don't use including the ones used to connect to the controller to program it. While they claim it's perfectly tuned and plug and play, nothing could be further from the truth. The connectors didn't even match the motor and after soldering new connectors on, the controller faults out with no load and light throttle. Couldn't be more annoyed.

I installed the phaserunner and auto tuned the motor using these base settings:
Set pole count to 24
Motor is actually 4 pole pairs (8 magnets) x 6 (internal planetary ratio) =24

Kv is approx 12
900 rpm / 72v = 12.5 kv

96 phase amps
5000w limit
Sensorless (for now)
Leave battery voltage default 48 (important)
Flux weakening 40 amps
Sensorless start current 60a

Hit autotune and it measures the windings resistance, spins the motor for 15 seconds and calculates the exact motor kv.

At the bottom of the screen I set Rad to 3 (also important)

Using lipo packs - 21s and cycle analyst v3
44 t large cog to cyclone
36 to Sram x1 rear 1150 cassette.

88v max. Power fully adjustable on a dial.
So far I can tell you this motor is completely different than my BBSHD on the same voltage. BBSHD is far smoother and revs higher with the same settings. While I can go 0-42 in my granny gear (44 chain to 50 rear) the cyclone cannot match this. (yet)

However I'm confident that top speed of cyclone will be faster, just in a different gear. Torque of the cyclone is significantly higher than the BBSHD. Cyclone feels more like a diesel truck with crazy towing capacity while BBSHD feels like an refined Audi.

Noise.
I use the red Mobile 28 grease in the BBSHD and it's so quiet. Cyclone sounds like a jeep with a manual transmission backing up. Opened the cyclone, cleaned the brown grease out and packet it with Mobil 28. Much better!

Stock freewheel on chainring locked up before I even rode the bike. Unreal. Sick bike parts ultra heavy duty freewheel installed. Much smoother and far less noise.

Also replaced crap chain tensioner jockey wheel with a Shimano which has a ball bearing in it. Also much more quiet.

Phaserunner is delivering about 60 amps with current settings and battery was half dead on my first run (down to 79v from 88) total wattage to motor was about 4500 though I do expect more.

Phaserunner has Enzotec copper heatsink and barely warms up. Motor temps were about 120F so far.

Now, the most frustrating part so far has been Hall sensor related. The phaserunner detects and sets the offset without a problem and software shows all three working but I'm having some faults related to phase current I am resolving. Grin asked me to send them an export of Phaserunner setting to help. In the meantime, sensorless is actually running so good I barely can tell the difference.

I read Kelly controllers need 12v to the halls to operate a cyclone. Tried that with Phaserunner and can support better and more stable detection but this didn't solve the issues.

More to come...

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » May 06 2018 10:27am

Aerialpixels

I’m guessing the point of the updated controllers from Luna cycle, or anyone is to get more power/torque out of the standard cyclone motor. Going from 4hp to 6hp is a big deal. That is understandable to me if it’s plug and play and works like it should without the headaches you are going through. There could be a reason and it’s Luna cycle selling these controllers and it’s not entirely proven to work for even above average technical types. Expanding their product line is what it is. Sick bike parts keeps it simple. I had an empty padded mailer arrive from Luna without the bhsd wrench in it that was supposed to be there. I didn’t even bother with the refund, but let them know their shipping supplies were weak.

I liked how you compared the cyclone to the bhsd as truck and Audi. Ever go riding with with a 2 stroke guy? The cyclone excels in every way except range and ease of refueling. Pedal start, stalls at a stand still, fiddling with air bypass screw trying to get it to idle, noise, smell. Glad I didn’t get involved in the gas world.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 06 2018 1:27pm

With the bluetooth controllers you can customize yourself a soft start, then it will be as tame as you want.

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Controller or Motor?

Post by rovieng » May 08 2018 11:15am

So I have the stock luna cycle kit on my cargo bike. It stopped working and I was getting a clicking sound similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuSzTcnIZco, but a little different and not as loud. I took the cover off and replaced the hall sensors. It still does the same thing. As I was doing this, I noticed that one of the phase wires was very hot. I took a thermal picture of the motor with the cover off.

The motor got up to around 110C without actually spinning (just clicking). the heat was on the windings.

The controller also was very hot. I took a thermal picture of that and the left side has heat. I think thats the row of the MOSFETS. Does anyone think this controller is bad? There is also the possibility that the hall sensors are not replaced properly, but would that cause the controller to heat up so much?
Image
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Re: Controller or Motor?

Post by Tommm » May 08 2018 2:16pm

rovieng wrote:
May 08 2018 11:15am
So I have the stock luna cycle kit on my cargo bike. It stopped working and I was getting a clicking sound similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuSzTcnIZco, but a little different and not as loud. I took the cover off and replaced the hall sensors. It still does the same thing. As I was doing this, I noticed that one of the phase wires was very hot. I took a thermal picture of the motor with the cover off.

The motor got up to around 110C without actually spinning (just clicking). the heat was on the windings.

The controller also was very hot. I took a thermal picture of that and the left side has heat. I think thats the row of the MOSFETS. Does anyone think this controller is bad? There is also the possibility that the hall sensors are not replaced properly, but would that cause the controller to heat up so much?
Image
Friend, if you are giving the motor power, and it is not turning, it is simply a (bad) space heater. So regarding the heat it is just a symptom and was working as designed.
You need to find the root cause of the clicking and not turning issue.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » May 08 2018 7:58pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 03 2018 6:33am
Why overheating??

Hard Riding?

Give me a break.
Unskilled rider found. Even with low gears this motor overheats extremely fast unless you gimp the power.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » May 09 2018 12:19am

flat tire wrote:
May 08 2018 7:58pm
DingusMcGee wrote:
May 03 2018 6:33am
Why overheating??

Hard Riding?

Give me a break.
Unskilled rider found. Even with low gears this motor overheats extremely fast unless you gimp the power.
By "gimp the power", so you mean run it within spec?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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