new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 09 2018 5:44am

roveing,

By another c3000 motor and controller as you likely need one or the other or maybe both of them. Then you can use this working system to plug and play one at a time of the suspected not working components of your old motor/controller to find out which pieces are not working.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 09 2018 6:21am

Tommm,

With the bluetooth controllers you can customize yourself a soft start, then it will be as tame as you want.
"Tame" may be correct, but despite you are very unlikely to do wheelies while hill climbing with the soft setting, the CA-V3's throttle adjustment beats all the programmable controllers throttle adjustment features I have tried for getting the ideal throttle response for such things as steep sidehill trail-less riding that have no shelf like trails that make for flat riding and easy steering.

The CA V3 working with the 40 amp controller instead of the 60 amp controller is quite adequate as I had to set back the 60 amp to 40 amps to keep from getting an ocassional wheelie on hill climbs. The 40 amp controller can drag me up steep gulley crossings 50 feet deep where the finish slope measures 68% and the zero speed "V" bottom measured 84%. These slopes were measured with a digital RO level.

My weight is 160 lbs. It is likely if you weight in at 200 lbs you will need a few more more amps to top out of this gulley moving. Gearing equivalent to 26" wheel is 22/44 x 32/48 x 24/26 and get this: no over heating problems despite the motor is briefly bogged on this crossing.

Fat tire bikes seem to take about twice the energy to move as this 55 lb x 2.7 tire edirtbike I use on these side hills.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 09 2018 8:35am

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 09 2018 6:21am
Tommm,

With the bluetooth controllers you can customize yourself a soft start, then it will be as tame as you want.
The CA V3 working with the 40 amp controller instead of the 60 amp controller is quite adequate as I had to set back the 60 amp to 40 amps to keep from getting an ocassional wheelie on hill climbs. The 40 amp controller can drag me up steep gulley crossings 50 feet deep where the finish slope measures 68% and the zero speed "V" bottom measured 84%. These slopes were measured with a digital RO level.
Do you know if the 60A controller is physically different from the 40A controller, aside from perhaps having a bigger shunt? Are the caps of higher capacity or the fets different models?

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Re: Cyclone with new Luna 3D bracket and Phaserunner

Post by evolutiongts » May 20 2018 11:23pm

Aerialpixels wrote:
May 05 2018 11:30pm
Hey guys. Thought I'd chime in. Build is done and while I've only ridden it a few times, I figured this and subsequent posts may be helpful. I've had a BBSHD running 88v for 6 months in combo with a Phaserunner. Top speed has hit 53Mph and its been dead reliable. Thought I'd try a cyclone to see if I liked it.
One thing I can definitely say right out of the gate is that my kit included the green Bac 800 controller from Luna Cycle and I hate it. The Phaserunner is based on it but the difference is Grin actually gives you support and a manual. Getting a manual for the ASI controller is like pulling teeth. The Bac 800 comes with a 24 wire connector and Luna cuts off every wire they don't use including the ones used to connect to the controller to program it. While they claim it's perfectly tuned and plug and play, nothing could be further from the truth. The connectors didn't even match the motor and after soldering new connectors on, the controller faults out with no load and light throttle. Couldn't be more annoyed.

I installed the phaserunner and auto tuned the motor using these base settings:
Set pole count to 24
Motor is actually 4 pole pairs (8 magnets) x 6 (internal planetary ratio) =24

Kv is approx 12
900 rpm / 72v = 12.5 kv

96 phase amps
5000w limit
Sensorless (for now)
Leave battery voltage default 48 (important)
Flux weakening 40 amps
Sensorless start current 60a

Hit autotune and it measures the windings resistance, spins the motor for 15 seconds and calculates the exact motor kv.

At the bottom of the screen I set Rad to 3 (also important)

Using lipo packs - 21s and cycle analyst v3
44 t large cog to cyclone
36 to Sram x1 rear 1150 cassette.

88v max. Power fully adjustable on a dial.
So far I can tell you this motor is completely different than my BBSHD on the same voltage. BBSHD is far smoother and revs higher with the same settings. While I can go 0-42 in my granny gear (44 chain to 50 rear) the cyclone cannot match this. (yet)

However I'm confident that top speed of cyclone will be faster, just in a different gear. Torque of the cyclone is significantly higher than the BBSHD. Cyclone feels more like a diesel truck with crazy towing capacity while BBSHD feels like an refined Audi.

Noise.
I use the red Mobile 28 grease in the BBSHD and it's so quiet. Cyclone sounds like a jeep with a manual transmission backing up. Opened the cyclone, cleaned the brown grease out and packet it with Mobil 28. Much better!

Stock freewheel on chainring locked up before I even rode the bike. Unreal. Sick bike parts ultra heavy duty freewheel installed. Much smoother and far less noise.

Also replaced crap chain tensioner jockey wheel with a Shimano which has a ball bearing in it. Also much more quiet.

Phaserunner is delivering about 60 amps with current settings and battery was half dead on my first run (down to 79v from 88) total wattage to motor was about 4500 though I do expect more.

Phaserunner has Enzotec copper heatsink and barely warms up. Motor temps were about 120F so far.

Now, the most frustrating part so far has been Hall sensor related. The phaserunner detects and sets the offset without a problem and software shows all three working but I'm having some faults related to phase current I am resolving. Grin asked me to send them an export of Phaserunner setting to help. In the meantime, sensorless is actually running so good I barely can tell the difference.

I read Kelly controllers need 12v to the halls to operate a cyclone. Tried that with Phaserunner and can support better and more stable detection but this didn't solve the issues.

More to come...
That's what happens when you buy from Luna Cycle. Terrible support. You can just create your own wiring harness, I believe the BAC 800 uses the same pin out the BAC 500 I could be mistaken. Molex connectors.

ASI support is slow but you get help if you are patient. You can only get a ASI account if you are a ASI customer then you get access to their support documentation and software.
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Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
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Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
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Tommm   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 23 2018 3:55am

Can anyone who has his 3 speed setup working help out a little.

The high speed mode (pink to black) works fine connecting them with a wire.

The low speed mode (blue to black) does not work, the controller does not turn the motor at all.
With a low ohm resistor it does the same as with the wire, with a high ohm resistor it ignores the connection.

Is there some kind of special resistor needed in this mode or is the controller faulty?

I measure 5v to the black wire from both the pink and blue wires.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » May 29 2018 10:34am

Tommm wrote:
May 23 2018 3:55am
Can anyone who has his 3 speed setup working help out a little.

The high speed mode (pink to black) works fine connecting them with a wire.

The low speed mode (blue to black) does not work, the controller does not turn the motor at all.
With a low ohm resistor it does the same as with the wire, with a high ohm resistor it ignores the connection.

Is there some kind of special resistor needed in this mode or is the controller faulty?

I measure 5v to the black wire from both the pink and blue wires.
To make it working I have tried with all the the combinations of the tree wires and monitor the engine speed results. In one of the combinations the engine did not work.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 04 2018 6:41pm

jonnydrive wrote:
May 29 2018 10:34am
Tommm wrote:
May 23 2018 3:55am
Can anyone who has his 3 speed setup working help out a little.

The high speed mode (pink to black) works fine connecting them with a wire.

The low speed mode (blue to black) does not work, the controller does not turn the motor at all.
With a low ohm resistor it does the same as with the wire, with a high ohm resistor it ignores the connection.

Is there some kind of special resistor needed in this mode or is the controller faulty?

I measure 5v to the black wire from both the pink and blue wires.
To make it working I have tried with all the the combinations of the tree wires and monitor the engine speed results. In one of the combinations the engine did not work.
So reading from the bluetooth app. I can successfully set it to "Energy mode" connecting the two 5v rails. It will not move the motor, but on the app it shows I am adding amps by modulating the throttle. "High speed" mode, the phase weakening works as advertised.

With that, I have tried every possible combination.

I guess it simply isn't going to work.

There is a "speed setting" on the controller, and it can dial it down to 30%, but I was wishing for a lot more, it is possible to set 10% in the app for the low speed mode switch, but as I figured here that switch isn't gonna work soon.

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jun 05 2018 11:22am

Tommm

Are you trying to limit or govern the speed of the cyclone motor? I had to install a trim pot or adjustable potentometer to a domino throttle to get it to not cut out at max throttle. Was sending 5v and I needed 4.8v if my memory is correct. The input 5v voltage to the throttle was lowered just a bit.
My point. I found this could also be used as a speed/power limiter to the cyclone if you are giving test rides or you need to tame it down for child riders. This may not work for you. It’s similar to putting a screw in the throttle to limit its twist range, but less of a hack and you still get full throttle use, just a limited top power/speed.

Thought I’d share as it might help you out.

What is the speed of the cyclone if no switch is used? Max?
Not in numbers but like high med low. I’m figuring the switch limits the cyclone? So no switch no limit.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 05 2018 2:59pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Jun 05 2018 11:22am
Tommm

Are you trying to limit or govern the speed of the cyclone motor? I had to install a trim pot or adjustable potentometer to a domino throttle to get it to not cut out at max throttle. Was sending 5v and I needed 4.8v if my memory is correct. The input 5v voltage to the throttle was lowered just a bit.
My point. I found this could also be used as a speed/power limiter to the cyclone if you are giving test rides or you need to tame it down for child riders. This may not work for you. It’s similar to putting a screw in the throttle to limit its twist range, but less of a hack and you still get full throttle use, just a limited top power/speed.

Thought I’d share as it might help you out.

What is the speed of the cyclone if no switch is used? Max?
Not in numbers but like high med low. I’m figuring the switch limits the cyclone? So no switch no limit.
The high speed mode switch enables phase weakening. It allows the motor to run at a higher rpm than the rated kv. It is an inherently less efficient process and it is better ti just shift to a higher gear on a mid drive.
The low speed mode is simply mean to cut the max rpm.
The settings are 80/100/120% of rated rpm, and should be able to be overridden with the overspeed setting in the bluetooth app.
I use the thumb throttle with led display.

It never cuts out. My throttle is perfect.

The pas of the cyclone is too similar to an on off switch, and that is a bit dangerous on a 4kw machine. So I'm trying to limit max rpm and acceleration too of the pas function. I got the acceleration down with the soft start setting).
You are probably right, since the pas cable is just a replica of the 3 throttle wires, with the pas on/off switch telling the controller which 3 wire throttle set to listen to and ignore.
It should be possible to set it and forget with some resistor on the signal wire.

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RageNR   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by RageNR » Jun 07 2018 11:48pm

Anyone have a dead 3000w Cyclone motor that I could steal a part from?
I need a back cover for an experiment.

And also hi everyone. It has been a while. :D
MOVE IT YOU BI-PEDALING OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!! RAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEE
My Klein Mantra mid-drive Cyclone build thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=81052

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Scott76308 » Jun 14 2018 12:00pm

Wow!!! Up to 120 pages now. I think I have read about 80 in the past. I finally have my Cyclone build done and sorted out. It was a long road but I now have a kick ass 72v Cyclone full suspension Cannondale mountainbike. Has been done for a few months and I just haven't had time to play with it and have decided to put it up for sale. I hope putting this link is allowed, mi[Moderation: no, it's not.]

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jun 15 2018 11:22am

Scott76308

I have a saying about home built ebikes. “It’s never bolt on and go”

Also

“It’s a modified kit” is and understatement with the cyclone.

I’ve chosen to stick with the stock controllers to avoid your type of headaches. Haven’t tried the 60A from Luna but it’s in the works. It’s just the stock controller with the shunt work done and the Bluetooth module added. That extra 1000watts takes a lot of effort to figure out with the non stock controller. I’m fine with the batt man over the cycle analysit too. Just looks like a headache.

Decent price in the bike. If you build them you know what goes into it and the time it takes to get it going nicely.

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Compoundbike   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Compoundbike » Jun 15 2018 4:30pm

A stupid question can it be driven with 20S (which is 84 Volt when the battery is fully loaded) ?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Jun 16 2018 4:31pm

Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.

Also I tried the ASI BAC2000 controller on this thing. The setup would be straightforward if there was better documentation although trying to autotune halls on the Cyclone is a ridiculous exercise I was never able to complete satisfactorily. I did run on sensorless which works well once you're going, but not from a stop. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get a "fast" throttle response even with torque ramp and power settings adjusted accordingly. The torque ramps up too smoothly / slowly. Overall this controller is not even close to being worth the money...even if all that stuff worked it's still very expensive for what it is and support is practically nonexistent.
Last edited by flat tire on Jun 16 2018 4:34pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by n2mb » Jun 17 2018 8:16pm

flat tire wrote:
Jun 16 2018 4:31pm
Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.

Also I tried the ASI BAC2000 controller on this thing. The setup would be straightforward if there was better documentation although trying to autotune halls on the Cyclone is a ridiculous exercise I was never able to complete satisfactorily. I did run on sensorless which works well once you're going, but not from a stop. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get a "fast" throttle response even with torque ramp and power settings adjusted accordingly. The torque ramps up too smoothly / slowly. Overall this controller is not even close to being worth the money...even if all that stuff worked it's still very expensive for what it is and support is practically nonexistent.
If you get the ASI 800 from Luna with the kit, is it pretuned for the cyclone? Any better performance that way?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 17 2018 10:45pm

flat tire wrote:
Jun 16 2018 4:31pm
Yes you can run 20S or even 30S. I have done both. Programming determines whether it's safe. But I wouldn't run 20S on the stock controller. People have done it but you are at the edge of component voltage ratings. Not good for reliability.
This is not necessarily true as of 2018.
I got a my cyclone 60A bluetooth controller from Paco, and the caps are now rated 100v up from 80v. Yes, it is shunt modded, and the controller thinks it is a 40A controller, also the amperage might not be very accurate. Don't know about the other models.

Also, people with the bluetooth controller, does it ever switch to something else than "operating mode: hall sensor"?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Compoundbike » Jun 22 2018 4:59pm

Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery im thinking about switching to Cyclone..but i think it wont fit to Q76R frame.?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Jun 22 2018 5:26pm

Compoundbike wrote:
Jun 22 2018 4:59pm
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery
My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 23 2018 3:38am

You will get tired of shifting all the time after having a hub if you are worried about mileage.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Jun 23 2018 3:53am

flat tire wrote:
Jun 22 2018 5:26pm
The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.
That sounds like a phase assignment problem.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 23 2018 9:08am

Chalo wrote:
Jun 23 2018 3:53am
flat tire wrote:
Jun 22 2018 5:26pm
The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.
That sounds like a phase assignment problem.
It is surprisingly competitive:

http://tangentmotors.com/tangentsdrive/
Spinning a Tangent gearbox unloaded at our full 12,500RPM requires less than 200W.
If course, we only need 4000-4500 motor rpm to reach max power but that is the tangent's problem.

Mind you cruising at 72v I found the 4kw cyclone is most efficient at around 20-40% of total rpm (depending on load), accelerating, yea, you better be 50-70%.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Compoundbike » Jun 23 2018 4:42pm

flat tire wrote:
Jun 22 2018 5:26pm
Compoundbike wrote:
Jun 22 2018 4:59pm
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery
My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!

Im just unhappy with the 72V 23 ah battery going only 20 miles.. while power is limited to 750 watt.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 24 2018 4:09am

Compoundbike wrote:
Jun 23 2018 4:42pm
flat tire wrote:
Jun 22 2018 5:26pm
Compoundbike wrote:
Jun 22 2018 4:59pm
Since my QS205 is eating way too much battery
My QS205 got great Wh / mile if I rode easy at a slower speed. If you're used to that motor you'll want too much from a Cyclone. The motor has about 200 watts of waste energy just spinning the gears in the upper RPM on 18S so it's not necessarily that efficient unless you're climbing and really make use of the reduction.

What I'm saying is riding style not motor determines range. And the Cyclone may not do any better than the 205, and you may burn it out at the same time!

Im just unhappy with the 72V 23 ah battery going only 20 miles.. while power is limited to 750 watt.
That should be impossible if everything is set up correctly.

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

This page is pretty accurate to the real world.
Battery should last you around 2 hours at 750 watt. With 28mph, so traveled distance should be ~55 miles.

You need to check if the battery isn't fake/busted, if it is draining by itself (measure volts if it goes down while resting over a day or two). Should be ~84V hot off the charger and ~64 empty.
Also check the system after running it a bit if the battery, controller, or motor is hot, including the wires between all of them.

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Odd Throttle Behaviour

Post by markz » Jun 26 2018 3:19pm

I may have fried my non-cyclone throttle trying to trouble shoot a no start. I know that the LVC is like 32V and I have 53.5V on it right now. So I was playing around with ignition cable, which goes to battery. I dont have the stock throttle/ignition/voltage-meter anymore. I use a Greentime left/right throttle.

I got it going, but it has an odd symptom happening. I have the 4kw model (higher amp controller).
If I touch the green and red throttle cables with black unconnected, the motor spins in the correct rotation.
Now if I lightly touch, it spins slowly and if I grab ahold tightly the motor spins faster.
I do have light new chain protectant on my hands. So its the resistance of my touching.
Isnt that just absolutely strange how I can touch the throttle wires and the motor spins.

The labels on the controller are clear and legible, but I have the red not wrapped around the throttle label. While the black and green are wrapped around the throttle cable.

I am going to try and find another new Greentime throttle and wire it up, and print out Justins throttle t/s guide.

edit - Another thing is I've never been able to actually use the Bluetooth feature. So I cant change the LVC.

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Re: Odd Throttle Behaviour

Post by Tommm » Jun 26 2018 5:46pm

markz wrote:
Jun 26 2018 3:19pm
I may have fried my non-cyclone throttle trying to trouble shoot a no start. I know that the LVC is like 32V and I have 53.5V on it right now. So I was playing around with ignition cable, which goes to battery. I dont have the stock throttle/ignition/voltage-meter anymore. I use a Greentime left/right throttle.

I got it going, but it has an odd symptom happening. I have the 4kw model (higher amp controller).
If I touch the green and red throttle cables with black unconnected, the motor spins in the correct rotation.
Now if I lightly touch, it spins slowly and if I grab ahold tightly the motor spins faster.
I do have light new chain protectant on my hands. So its the resistance of my touching.
Isnt that just absolutely strange how I can touch the throttle wires and the motor spins.

The labels on the controller are clear and legible, but I have the red not wrapped around the throttle label. While the black and green are wrapped around the throttle cable.

I am going to try and find another new Greentime throttle and wire it up, and print out Justins throttle t/s guide.

edit - Another thing is I've never been able to actually use the Bluetooth feature. So I cant change the LVC.
The 4kw motor isn't the 3kw motor with a different controller. The 4kw motor is a separate motor with the same gearbox, it has 25% more torque because the stator is 25% wider and is 1kg heavier. It can be bought as a standalone or a crank axle version with the coaxial bike.
1800~3000W Brushless Motor
Image
2k-4kW Brushless Motor
Image

The bluetooth app you can download from luna and the pass is 12345 or 123456789, my version is 4.0 2016/07/07.

The throttle wires are +5v red(sent out from the controller), GND black and green for signal(sent into the controller) that has an expencted range of input of about 1v to 4.5v. Yellow goes to voltage display if you have one and is live with the full battery voltage (72) it connects from the battery to the display and back to the ignition wire if you have the key version throttle. So if you touch the red and green it should spin full power or will not spin at all because of an out of range error. Connecting those two isn't the proper way to run it. As far as I know, you can use any +5v sources for the red throttle cable, for example the pas or the 3 way switch have +5v lines, same goes for the GND wire, they are all connected to the same pads inside the controller.

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