new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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CobraJet   10 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by CobraJet » Nov 11 2020 12:21pm

Wow, sad really. Sign of the times I guess. Still it sucks though ....

Hope it all works out the way you wanted. Best of luck on this my friend!

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Skaiwerd   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Nov 11 2020 12:28pm

Seems fishy to me. Isn’t paco trusted by es’ers? I do remember reading here that the 4K needed to go on a fatbike because it was wider than the normal cyclone3000. Regular 3000w one out of stock at Luna and sick bike parts.

matt912836   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Nov 11 2020 1:33pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Nov 11 2020 12:28pm
Seems fishy to me. Isn’t paco trusted by es’ers? I do remember reading here that the 4K needed to go on a fatbike because it was wider than the normal cyclone3000. Regular 3000w one out of stock at Luna and sick bike parts.
Kind of why I just threw money his way without much of a worry or concern... i basically spent $360 on an updated 3kw motor with metal gears..

the sad part is I'm not even disappointed with the performance of the motor! I'm still getting insane performance out this motor, even on this heavy frame. But it does heat up eventually and I wont have the headroom to get up to 100 amp peaks like it should have. Plus the whole purpose was to have the wider 4kw so I could have the bigger magnets it has. should be an absolute beast but apparently getting it straight from the source is out the question :roll:

Already sent in my dispute to the bank with all pictures and proof I could provide.. hes long stopped responding to my emails so this is the only route left to take..

On a more positive note, my updated simplified drivetrain is holding up beautifully! Thinking about making the jump to 415, #41 or even 420 chain for peace of mind. Not to say the bmx chain isnt holding up, it's doing amazing for the brutal ~6kw I'm running through it.

Image
Last edited by matt912836 on Nov 11 2020 3:49pm, edited 3 times in total.

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CobraJet   10 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by CobraJet » Nov 11 2020 3:11pm

Great to hear about your experiance with this motor!

Is there a way to change out the plastic gears in an existing 3kW motor to the metal gears? If so, can someone share a link?

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 12 2020 5:27am

CobraJet wrote:
Nov 11 2020 3:11pm
Great to hear about your experiance with this motor!

Is there a way to change out the plastic gears in an existing 3kW motor to the metal gears? If so, can someone share a link?
It is easy and quick. Gears you can try cyclone (Paco) or try source generic.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 15 2020 9:16am

Hi finally. You folks seem unsure of Cyclone-Taiwan claims? I started to look into their 6000 watt motor. Just as I wanted to actually place the order the old web site vanished . There now is new web site.

See

https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/6/data/20

The Ship to feature did not include city, state and zip. I contacted them with this info, but it was the weekend. We will see.

I have 3 Specialized Big Hit edirt bikes that have various modifications. New forks and motor for the oldest of the fleet.
IMG_0427.jpg
New forks
IMG_0427.jpg (63.67 KiB) Viewed 821 times
If the motor is too wide for the pedals cranks, I see sickbikeparts sells a wide 226 mm BB axle that fits the 68mm, which may make for more often pedal grounding while turning and leaning. Other thoughts: go petal -less as I do not pedal any on the sidehill rides with a 3000 w motor.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Nov 17 2020 7:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 17 2020 7:06pm

My Cyclone 6000 watt KIT arrived today. Contrary to the Elite Motor/Cyclone's motor diagrams showing the 6000W motor and the 3000 W motor as having the same dimensions, the 6000 W motor is about 1inch longer (width between cranks needed) overall than the 3000W motor. Let's say 7 1/2" vs 6 5/8".

Since I bought the complete mounting kit, the 6000W motor with the included 7" ISIS axle will fit the new motor width/pedal/crank width using a 68 mm BB shell.The needed expansion of about 1" is achieved with a 33 mm threaded sleeve that screws into the left side of the BB shell. With the threaded shell parts and lock rings the kit effectively makes a wider BB shell.

One can only wonder how much additional stiffening the standard included 2 plate mount and this sleeve will need for to reduce flexing adequately to keep the motor chain on the cog? Will we be back to making a stiffer mount like the early days of the 3000W motor mount?

IMG_0433.jpg
The standard 153mm BB axle is shown.
IMG_0433.jpg (55.85 KiB) Viewed 764 times
IMG_0432.jpg
The 6000W setup is wider
IMG_0432.jpg (57.11 KiB) Viewed 764 times
The longer axle will make for a bigger Q-Factor but some 152 mm length cranks would make it about the same? Likely even less. The axle is less than 1/2" wider of center line than what the 153 mm gave.? No, it is the same on the right and about 1" wider on the left. So more left pedal down maneuvering when turning left or just go with foot pegs on both sides and no more pedals

The throttle plug has 4 wires, the standard RGB and a purple wire tied back but labeled "high brake". Anyone familiar with it's optional use?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 18 2020 7:38pm

The 6000 W motor spins -- on the workbench but a note from Paco of Cyclone.....on the failed "shopping cart"
Dear Dennis,

Thank you
you tried to order 6kw double chainwheel kit ISIS_68mm, 80A_Bluetooth_programable
Because our shopping card is still not ready, so we give you some discount for you to order again.
Total with shipping is 660USD
Please let me know and I can send you credit card payment link.

Best
Paco


Thanks Paco for the discount. Your new webpage is much easier to navigate and read.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 25 2020 11:20am

The 6000 W Cyclone installed by 6 am. Fast. If we get another Stimulus check, get one of these motors. Hooked up as a one speed , 410 motor chain and 415 rear chain. 3 Turnigy 20 Ah 6s LiPo batts. 3 speed control on bar switch. After use of brakes with Electric brake motor stop signal setup (change delay action on controller with Emotor program? Anyone know?) motor stalls until zeroing throttle signal -- no good for edirtbike use. Eliminated this lag by routing brake Switch wire through Cycle Analyst.

The old Shimano Deore XT freehub failed after some 20 fast starts. I switched to my wheel with DT Swiss 350 hub. Is the DT Swiss freehub still reputed to be the strongest?
IMG_0437.jpg
A simple chainguard made fron angle.
IMG_0437.jpg (76.55 KiB) Viewed 651 times
IMG_0438.jpg
Plenty of length on control wires
IMG_0438.jpg (91.22 KiB) Viewed 651 times

Gears: 22 white Ind freehub on motor to 44T steel cyclone; double steel 36 T to double steel 44T on rear with 415 chain. Can do burnouts from zero against headwall.


PS. Fox 40 forks on hold as I cannot get SunRingle MTX 39 rim 26" 32H until Dec 1. But sooner is getting a temp sensor motor shut off as this is a must with now ocassionionally 80 amps heating the same diameter motor shell.

Grantmac   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Nov 25 2020 3:33pm

Looks like a prime candidate to ditch the gearbox entirely in favor of just two chain reductions like the LR BB.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 25 2020 10:25pm

GrantMac: Looks like a prime candidate to ditch the gearbox entirely in favor of just two chain reductions like the LR BB.
Has LR dropped using the Gates Belt? I had a LRSB motor and tore the Gates Belt on the first headwall attempt on a single track hill climb. Certainly two chains are better than a belt anywhere for serious edirtbiking.

This afternoon I took the 6KW edirtbike on steep sidehill rocky single tracks. The 6k motor does grinds slower and smoother than the 3K motor, not to forget vastly more acceleration. The 6k motor does better on this type of riding than the 3K motor. But the switch to the bigger motor may require some heavier duty hardware -- like stronger free hubs, chains and batteries.

After lightly attempting to remove the left motor cover I realized it was sealed -- maybe water tight? So the K type thermistor will be installed with JB Weld on the outside back upper part of the motor not on the inside. Since the wire of this radiant heat floor temp thermistor is rated 80 C, I will consider motor shut down high temp when the outside of the motor shell reaches 80C. We see how this works. Today's high was about 35F resulting in a barely warm motor.
IMG_0442.jpg
Location of thermistor since motor has been sealed
IMG_0442.jpg (66.29 KiB) Viewed 607 times

Grantmac   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Nov 25 2020 11:45pm

New LR motor only runs a single stage reduction to the rear wheel about 8:1 at 10kw.

Ditching the gearbox would be simple with your setup using just chains.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 26 2020 6:07pm

Grantmac,

There are trade offs for going no gearbox.

The following is edirtbike talk:

Likely and as LR mentions, "... large rear sprockets." I can see using a rear sprocket as big as a 203mm disc brake rotor as my 203 rotors have not got bent, yet. A 48T sprocket is about the same diameter as a 203 rotor. Gears bigger than 48T at the BB certainly would get hit more and possibly bent. A bigger chainring on the rear axle is less vulnerable than one at the BB location.

Two chain reductions using 18/48 and 16/48 would get that 8:1 reduction for a big (gearboxless) motor and have no chainrings bigger than 203mm. Using two reductions of 16/48 would get a 9:1. I see LR sells a 72T rear if you want less size at the BB.

LR touts the 8:1 reduction using a 10Kw motor ? and has his setup, " For Sale." Judging from my past purchase from LR, his productions likely don't get an equivalent field test to the terrain I ride. Otherwise he would not have used the Gates Belt, which is just one instance of such shortcomings I know .

Secondly LR makes a lot of proclamations without reference to any testing he has discovered or actually done -- pure unchecked intuition. E.g. "...gearboxes use/waste a lot of energy.... But gearboxes may aid in getting the smoothness you seek on steep terrain better than a one size fits all approach. What we specifically don't know is, 'What is 10K Quiltbox really good at doing and can do it better than what you are improving your machine to do on the terrain you ride."

The life time of one gearbox exceeds many chain and sprocket changes. Things stay clean in the gearbox.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Nov 26 2020 8:11pm

Those tooth counts are only valid if you are using bicycle chain. 25H or (overkill) 219 on the primary allows large reductions without going huge on the chainring.
Big rear sprockets aren't having issues with the emoto guys so far.

It's less about the inefficiency of the gearbox and more about being easier on chains plus narrower.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 27 2020 6:57pm

Grantmac,

Correct. A smaller chain pitch like #25 can make for bigger reduction using less max ring radius.

You say, "It's less about the inefficiency of the gearbox and more about being easier on chains plus narrower."

Narrower bike chains came about to get more cogs on the freehub and within the axle width-- 10s, 11s & 12 speed. These flimsy expensive chains don't hold up as good the 9 speed chain to dirt, twisting and removing them when they get caught between 2 chainrings.

A bigger chain say #415 on the rear will thoroughly outperform a #25 chain, a 219 chain or a 12 speed chain when it comes to use as the rear chain on an edirtbike. Also narrow is less stable.

Speaking of lateral stability, the #25 chain cannot hold a candle to the #415 chain's tenacity. A flying twig can derail a #25 chain. Maybe for a somewhat enclosed chainguard like LR incorporates on his nominal 10k motor kit the drive will be shielded enough for full time street use? I still have #25 rings etc around from some experiments back in the day. The #25 chain is well suited for clean, little wear, snug fit indoor power transfer. LR could use this as his slogan: "We have throughly bench tested the #25 chain and you upon buying our product get to do the field testing."
IMG_0308.JPG
Note the shallowness of the #25 teeth
IMG_0308.JPG (59.75 KiB) Viewed 526 times
Going bigger on the rear wheel comes in at about $1.00 per tooth. I have an unmouned 70 tooth made for a rear wheel set up. I think that once rear chain rings get more diameter than the crank arm diameter say 90 T, you are setting up for some bent rings when offtrailing with an edirtbike.
IMG_0445.jpg
A 172 mm crank undderneath a 70T #41 bike chain ring.
IMG_0445.jpg (67.96 KiB) Viewed 526 times
A comparative idea for weight trade offs on edirtbike. The weight saved by going light and weak vs. heavy and strong on gears and chains is far less than a standard deviation of the group of rider+ bike weight for these edirtbikes we build.

Grantmac   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Nov 27 2020 11:45pm

LR doesn't use 25H in any of their builds so I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. I also wouldn't use it for a secondary reduction.

All I'm saying is if you are going to use such a big motor that having 3 stages of reduction with a relatively low effective ratio is a poor design.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DtiK » Nov 28 2020 5:06pm

is there any place in europe which can sell me tapered square bottom bracket (68-83mm) for 3000w cyclone?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 28 2020 6:49pm

Grantmac,

You say a relatively low effective ratio? My ratio is 6 (planetary) x (M)44/22 x (R)44/36 = 14.677. Is this low? The ratio 14.67 is quite quite suited at 6K for my single speed edirtbikes and where I ride them. Maybe top speed 35 mph with the 6 K.

Using the Cyclone planetary reduction I am able to avoid small cogs that do wear out very quickly. Let's say cogs less than 16T have a short life. LR used to sell 9T and they had a brief life. It would likely happen that if I used all chains & rings to get the 14.67 ratio my two chain reductions would wear out somewhat quicker than they do with part of the reduction being the 6:1 gearbox.

The (LR?)idea that the ratio of 8:1 is ideal for a 6K edirtbike is simply off the mark. The 8:1 ratio may work fine for his single speed 6K Quiltbox on groomed uphill steep? bike trails and yet give some speed for the highway? Fine. I do not do highway with these edirtbikes.

Let's call an ace an ace? The real problem with a big motor and the planetary gearbox was it's width in relation to BB adaptions. It is somewhat solved with the Cyclone BB Extension. The left side is wider and I have to compensate from my old space allocations.

I may switch the motor pulley from a 22T to a 24T making the ratio 14.67 x 22/24 = 13.44. A ratio of 8 is not on the horizon nor is eliminating the gearbox even though I have the hardware present to make such a conversion . Note Big rings last longer.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 02 2020 9:30pm

This evening I converted the 6k motor overall ratio to 8:1, which is the ratio LR is using with with his touted 6k motor kit & mounting. The ratio change from 14.77 was done on a new crank arm, freewheel adapter, chainrings and chain so to Not have to make up new chain lengths for each ratio test.

The set up of rings & planetary were configured as 6 planetary x 24/22 motor x 44/36 rear = 8.0 :1.
IMG_0471.jpg
22T White Ind on motor and 24T on BB hub
IMG_0471.jpg (73.17 KiB) Viewed 403 times
IMG_0470.jpg
#410 chain on front #415 to rear
IMG_0470.jpg (67.71 KiB) Viewed 403 times
When I finished this set up it was dark and cold but I did a brief run on pavement. This 6K setup with the 8:1 gearing does outperform (feeling wise) my 4K cyclone coaxial bike on 114v and 60 amps = 6840 watts. Both setups have adequate batteries -- 3 or 4 Turnigy 20 aH 6s batts with a12C max discharge.

I have not tested the setup on the sidehill edirtbike challenges. Likely the motor will heat more than with the 14.77 ratio. I have a thermistor hooked up for automatic shut down when reaching 80C on outside of motor shell.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Dec 02 2020 10:41pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Dec 02 2020 9:30pm
This evening I converted the 6k motor overall ratio to 8:1, which is the ratio LR is using with with his touted 6k motor kit & mounting. The ratio change from 14.77 was done on a new crank arm, freewheel adapter, chainrings and chain so to Not have to make up new chain lengths for each ratio test.

The set up of rings & planetary were configured as 6 planetary x 24/22 motor x 44/36 rear = 8.0 :1.
IMG_0471.jpg
IMG_0470.jpg

When I finished this set up it was dark and cold but I did a brief run on pavement. This 6K setup with the 8:1 gearing does outperform (feeling wise) my 4K cyclone coaxial bike on 114v and 60 amps = 6840 watts. Both setups have adequate batteries -- 3 or 4 Turnigy 20 aH 6s batts with a12C max discharge.

I have not tested the setup on the sidehill edirtbike challenges. Likely the motor will heat more than with the 14.77 ratio. I have a thermistor hooked up for automatic shut down when reaching 80C on outside of motor shell.
What do you think of the single chain idea cyclone just uploaded?
[youtube]sBdIjkWAJx4[/youtube]

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DtiK » Dec 03 2020 1:08am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Nov 25 2020 11:20am

The old Shimano Deore XT freehub failed after some 20 fast starts. I switched to my wheel with DT Swiss 350 hub. Is the DT Swiss freehub still reputed to be the strongest?

Hello. I am making rear hub with Halo Fix-G track hub (sturdy easy to replace bearings) with adjustable chainline. CrMo 1/8" fatfoot sprocket. Should be strong unit. Can be used with freewheel or without. So im going without as it allows regen and braking. But adjustable chainline is nice..

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 03 2020 7:23pm

Tommm,
What do you think of the single chain idea cyclone just uploaded?
For the rocky trails that I ride the motor would get bashed in that position.

Specialized with Horst figured out a rear bike suspension 4 bar mechasism that upon compression tightens the chain just a tiny bit as rear axle rotates about the BB shell center as opposed to some designs that get looser. If I would configure this one chain design I would loose use of the Horst mechanism for what is especially good at doing -- an almost constant swing arm radius.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 03 2020 8:36pm

Grantmac,

Re: Testing the 8:1 ratio on the Cyclone 6K 80 amp controller 240 amp discharge on batts

Yard Test: a standing burnout. Failed. Wheel did not turn and dig grove. I weigh 155 and the bike 82 = 237 lbs.

Field Test: 50% grade about 26 degrees. Motor torque saturated at low speed with full throttle. Stalled . Needed duck kick assist to start. Motor temp reached 39C with ambient temp 30F.

The Hill:
IMG_0495.jpg
IMG_0495.jpg (458.05 KiB) Viewed 338 times
Obviously 8:1 fails for this 6k edirtbiking setup. So I uped the ratio to 11:1 .
IMG_0490.jpg
16T on motor and 24T on BB shaft
IMG_0490.jpg (458.65 KiB) Viewed 338 times
This 11:1 setup on the 6k motor just passed the yard test.

The Cyclone 3K can pass the yard test and the hill climb with the 14.66:1 total ratio.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 05 2020 7:44pm

DtiK,
.
Hello. I am making rear hub with Halo Fix-G track hub (sturdy easy to replace bearings) with adjustable chainline. CrMo 1/8" fatfoot sprocket. Should be strong unit. Can be used with freewheel or without. So im going without as it allows regen and braking. But adjustable chainline is nice..
The problem with aluminum splines on an aluminum hub is that the steel cogs used on them wear into & through the splines. The fat food at 7mm wide stops/slows down this wear for human pedaling forces. Maybe not for for a high torque/forces to the wheel applications when powering with a 6K motor ? After wear thru the hub will have to be replaced.

The problem with the Shimano made freehub is that it is aluminum. DT Swiss makes an all steel freehub for their hubs and maybe ? they make a version to fit Shimano and SRAM that has the steel option.

But my failed freehubs have been Shimano at the pawls. My next hub modification will be to fill the pawl area/volume of a steel DT Swiss hub with steel resin making it locked -- like on a motorcycle. If it fails I will not need to spoke relace a new hub.

Regen seriously interferes with critical edirtbike steering control. Secondly I solar charge the bike batteries so I feel no qualms for "wasting the momentum/energy" of potential regen.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 08 2020 7:44am

Testing the 11: 1 ratio

The Cyclone 6K with an 11:1 ratio zips the bike along with acceleration much better than the 8:1 could do. The 8:1 ratio on a trail was like the best of hub motors BITD. I had both the Crystalyte Crown Motor and the Cromotor V3 which wallowed on start up when on even mild hills of trails.

Before going to the dirtbike hills I gave the 11:1 ratio more burnout tests and thought the dig out ability lacking as there were some stallls. The next ratio to test was the 12:1 but I did the field test with the 11:1 in several ways. The 11:1 performed all the routes and hill climbs somewhat better than the 3K motor. By the ways these tests were done with both the slow start and fast start switches of the emotor program set = zero. I like the Fast Start = 1 in general for trails. AS for the 3 speed switch, all three modes worked fine, except fast mode would get much more acceleration on any of the short straight stretches permitting more speed. The motor chain was 410H with a generic 410 Half link connector and despite this standard half link is not recommended for use with the 410H I was able to do all the bike paths.

A day later, I got a 212 lb edirtbike rider to try the 11:1 ratio. He cruised the first hill that 8:1 ratio could not do with me at 155 lb. On a longer and more difficult hill he failed because the chain broke at the weak half link. We then put on the HL 710 half link chain because to use the 410 H with an extra link would require a tensioner. The HL 710 held up for all the rest of edirtbike hill trails and the heavier rider felt the 11:1 was sufficient. So I took him to the test pieces of the rock crawler vehicles crowd. Near the finish on a difficult rock crawler hill climb he reached torque saturation while at full throttle and stalled. He now thinks a 12:1 ratio is worth trying.

Ps.......he did not notice the wider by 1 inch crank arm placement the 6K requires.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Dec 08 2020 10:30am, edited 3 times in total.

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