new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Apr 10, 2018 10:33 pm

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 5:27 pm
yep, mee too, the chain without the standard front derailleur jumps sideways, but with two front chainring it is difficult to build a good chain tensioner because the chain needs to move up and down and left and ride to follow the gearings . I built a handmade prototype version, testing will came soon
I intended this to motor chain as most of the shocks to chain(s) originate from there.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 11, 2018 7:01 am

Skaiwerd,

A Mtn bike frame without rear suspension? I did some steep hill climbing with a Cyclone hard tail and a fat hard tail equipped with the small block LR motor. The gates belt on the LR setup failed on the first attempt at the hill. The freehub pawls soon failed on the Cyclone hardtail. Rear suspension considerably lessens the shock loadings given to the drive train when an airborne spinning rear wheel hits the ground.

What is your reasoning to go with a hardtail?

I have one bike with a 3" wide tire but have no desire to go any bigger again.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 11, 2018 1:43 pm

DingusMcGee

I just think it’s overkill, the full suspension. More parts, shock and dogbones and stuff like that to take away from space inside the frame. Even when I was younger and in better shape I would rarely bunny hop or get airborne. I was just to tired as most of my energy was used climbing and going fast on the sweeping winding parts. Plus I never mastered the pull up the front so the rear tire hits first method when catching air. We all know of the unpredictable results that could happen when the front tire hits first, especially if your are not perfectly straight with your steering or you hit that hole that was covered with leaves. So I figured I’m not catching air with a heavy ebike, don’t want to try. Also I read conflicting reports on the linkage causing the rear to twist under load. One read 4 link was best, while I also read the simpler 2 pivot style was better. Don’t care what’s true as I’m not up for full suspension at this time anyway. We will see what happens, just assembling parts for now. For your 3” tires did you have wide rims like 40-50mm? With that and lower tire pressures the suspension part is less necessary, opinion only. Sure it’s good for thouse who need or want it to match their riding style.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 11, 2018 1:44 pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 11, 2018 7:01 am
Skaiwerd,

A Mtn bike frame without rear suspension? I did some steep hill climbing with a Cyclone hard tail and a fat hard tail equipped with the small block LR motor. The gates belt on the LR setup failed on the first attempt at the hill. The freehub pawls soon failed on the Cyclone hardtail. Rear suspension considerably lessens the shock loadings given to the drive train when an airborne spinning rear wheel hits the ground.

What is your reasoning to go with a hardtail?

I have one bike with a 3" wide tire but have no desire to go any bigger again.
I don't know for Skaiwerd but I chose hard tail because I am afraid that the suspension point can be a weakest parts because the torque put from the engine to the frame is not the same of a jump and they can be a failing points. Also I have problems to place 1 kw of battery pack in the triangle in coexistence with the rear shock.
I choose a rear fatbike wheel to obtain the maximum available grip without sinking in the mud.

the downside: a lot of stress on the rear wheel hub and a pair of freehub pawls broken..

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Apr 11, 2018 4:27 pm

If someone thinks full suspension is a waste their brain is either broken or lacking critical information. In the end it's their loss.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Apr 11, 2018 11:04 pm

I have a hardtail, about 1400km since conversion (250-300km in winter). I wish I had full suspension, even when riding only streets.
During winter I broke rear axle riding local forest biking/skiing/jogging trail - which had quite smooth, worked up surface.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 12, 2018 1:38 am

minimum wrote:
Apr 11, 2018 11:04 pm
I have a hardtail, about 1400km since conversion (250-300km in winter). I wish I had full suspension, even when riding only streets.
During winter I broke rear axle riding local forest biking/skiing/jogging trail - which had quite smooth, worked up surface.
What do you think it is the cause of the broken? The low quality of the components, the absence of a rear suspension or something else?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 12, 2018 7:06 am

Skaiwerd,

. For your 3” tires did you have wide rims like 40-50mm? With that and lower tire pressures the suspension part is less necessary, opinion only. Sure it’s good for thouse who need or want it to match their riding style.

Rims 33 mm. With tires pressured for soft suspension you get less sidewall grip from the same tire. I think of my fork for softening the ride. Riding side hills necessities good sidewall grip.

I have a Cyclone hardtail and get too much front end bounce to do these rides for lack of steering control. The front wheel is in the air too much. With low tire pressure there would be less sidewall grip.

It seems using a very wide rim might cause the knubs adjacent to the tire sides to protrude less sideward than the smooth rubber of the tire sidewall that is closer too the bead. I use these tires, Maxxus Minion DHF, Kenda Inevegal at 2.8 & 2.7 wide and one 3" x24" Arrow and get good knub protrusion with this rim width. The soft rubber version by Maxxus on the rear wear out quite quickly.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Apr 12, 2018 12:24 pm

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 12, 2018 1:38 am
What do you think it is the cause of the broken? The low quality of the components, the absence of a rear suspension or something else?
No suspension, high tire pressure and heavy bike (about 35kg: 15kg bicycle, 5kg motor+controller, 15kg battery). Oh, and high speed and bad roads.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Apr 12, 2018 12:37 pm

minimum wrote:
Apr 12, 2018 12:24 pm
No suspension, high tire pressure and heavy bike (about 35kg: 15kg bicycle, 5kg motor+controller, 15kg battery). Oh, and high speed and bad roads.
Hubs spaced for 7 speed freewheels routinely bend and break axles even without the extra weight and chain tension of an e-bike. The poor dropout alignment of most cheap bikes makes it almost inevitable.

If you're going to use a mid drive, save yourself a bunch of trouble and get a sturdy handbuilt wheel with a cassette hub.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Apr 12, 2018 7:37 pm

So to contribute to the thread I burned out another motor a month ago and I have major news that may affect those of you with a flexing motor.

But first the burning.

Taking about 70-80 volts, this motor really is only suitable for ~1500 watts or so continuous. I ran over 6000 watts at first on 120v and while that bike was faster the motor died after 100 miles. The second one lasted a few hundred @ 60 amps battery 150 amps phase. Here's the problem, I've been riding mostly on the track / trails and I'm getting way faster. At first I wasn't really using my power so as to concentrate on carrying speed but now that I've advanced beyond low power momentum carrying exercises the limitations of the motor have become very apparent. Now I'm running only 40 amps battery, 100 amps phase and I still don't expect this motor to last more than a few hundred miles cuz my right wrist is only becoming less lenient.

:arrow: :arrow: Now major news for people with flexing drives
:arrow: :arrow:
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.

Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 13, 2018 5:16 am

Chalo wrote:
Apr 12, 2018 12:37 pm
minimum wrote:
Apr 12, 2018 12:24 pm
No suspension, high tire pressure and heavy bike (about 35kg: 15kg bicycle, 5kg motor+controller, 15kg battery). Oh, and high speed and bad roads.
Hubs spaced for 7 speed freewheels routinely bend and break axles even without the extra weight and chain tension of an e-bike. The poor dropout alignment of most cheap bikes makes it almost inevitable.

If you're going to use a mid drive, save yourself a bunch of trouble and get a sturdy handbuilt wheel with a cassette hub.
Chalo, are you suggesting to choose freehub and cassette instead of therad-on freewheel?

Image

I was convinced that the freewheel was more strong than a freehub....my mistake

There is a way to reinforce the freehub form manage the Cyclone torque? I already broke two freehub it is becoming quite annoying (and expensive).

In my last build I tried to block the freehub, in this way the cassette moves with the wheel hub in both direction, the downsides is in downhill where chain jumps around changing gear, stalling, breaking, etc..

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Apr 13, 2018 1:02 pm

A freewheel can be stronger than a freehub in torque (or sometimes not), but the axle of a multi-speed freewheel hub will always be vulnerable to bending and breaking because of the degree to which it's cantilevered (overhanging).

If you can find a freewheel hub with a large diameter, preferably non-threaded axle-- Phil Wood is one very expensive example-- you can get the best of both. Sturdy ratchet, cheap consumables, and a reliable axle. I sometimes convert sealed bearing BMX hubs with 14mm axles (15mm bearings) by making a substitute axle with multi-speed spacing. This allows the axle to be 15mm in diameter at the narrowest, and up to 19mm in the overhung portion on the freewheel side.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 14, 2018 7:39 am

An email sent to Luna Cycle from a return 2 months ago to Luna Cycle:

I see the returned item has been delivered to your shop but no conformation, credit or payment sent to me? Is this type of action business as usual?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 14, 2018 10:42 am

Flat tire


:arrow: :arrow: Now major news for people with flexing drives
:arrow: :arrow:
A while ago I discovered that with the old style mounts, putting the hose clamp as far back from the drive end of the motor as possible is key to prevent flex. Once you move it you'll see how it works: the band holds the motor in place tightly against the mounting spacers the fasteners go thru. I never thought about this before and from many other builds I see neither did other people. If you do this you will totally solve flexing for all practical purposes. Your clamp will be offset to the left from the downtube but that's OK, it will still keep the motor held up there and of course it presses AGAINST the tube when on power. I only found out about this after looking at picture on the Cyclone website. It's not mentioned in any instructions, DIYS or anything I've seen so far but it is absolutely critical to a solid build.

Yes, I have tried the HD mounts and they suck balls in comparison. Too much flex from that wimpy thing on the non-drive side!
Flat tire, the worthiness of properly placed gear clamps towards reducing frame flex has been posted on this site by me several times. In particular I have argued that to get higher rigidity, the spacers that rest on the motor fins be replaced with spacers of the correct diameter to reach the motor housing, the interfering motor fins be removed and the motor housing smoothed at that location. Otherwise when the local gear clamp is tightened the motor pulley plane will be pulled to a slight angle to the BB chainring plane. Assuming the OEM frame unloaded aligned to have both chain rings in the same plane.

I did find your posting of the new motor frame's stiffness as a "beware of " posting and enjoy such commentary.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Apr 14, 2018 1:26 pm

Yeah I don't doubt it but you know how searching goes. I never ran into it.

Re your Luna return, many people have "slipped through the cracks" with Luna's team and have horror stories to tell. Imagine cheech and chong are responsible for getting your stuff processed. Not everyone is going to be well-served by that arrangement. Good luck.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 15, 2018 8:01 am

DingusMcGee
One question, did you obtain an RMA number from Luna Cycle prior to sending in your parts? They may use a different acronym but rma is the most common. Return merchandise authorization is what it stands for. It should put your return request into their system so it’s ready for when your merchandise arrives for refund. You may know this. I would think this would be beneficial if you need to do a chargeback from your credit card company or PayPal etc. Use caution if you shop with a debit card, you may not be as protected as you’d be with a credit card. I’ve had several successful chargebacks for items that never showed up or when a company just closed up and disappeared, with my credit card.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 16, 2018 6:08 am

Skaiwerd,

I have both tracking and a return authorization. I now have gotten a response from Scott that he will look into the return completion.

Yes, credit cards offer more protection.

Flat tire,

Cheech and Chong? And maybe resume experience with an epipe.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 17, 2018 6:46 am

Skaiwerd,

Back to weak linkages. The linkages of the downhill bikes of Specialized, the Big Hit, are quite a bit larger than the Elite full suspension frame that Cyclone sells with the coaxial motor, not mention the frame stiffness. I did bend the stays of Elite on the first day of riding in situation that would not cause stay bending to the Big Hit Frames.

The Horst Hollow Link did break in half on my once new to me 2004 Stumpjumper after many years of use. I bolted it together and am still using the repaired one on that bike which has had a c-3000 for some time. I just don't have the weak linkage problem that concerns you with FSB's.

Both of my Big Hit bikes were bought off eBay. The used components they came with are still in use. I equipped the Elite with new components and the cost was considerably more that what it cost to get the Big Hits running. The red Big Hit complete to the tire rubber with shipping was $460. These used downhill bike frames of Specialized seem quite superior to any drummed up product from the orient for the purposes of tough trail riding.

Another messurement to consider for trail riding is the wheelbase which as it gets less means more nimbleness. The red Big Hill measures 43.5" using a 26" front and a 24" rear. Bikes running 27.5" and 29" wheels cannot beat this compactness when in a FSF. The welded frames of Quiltbox, Sur Ron and the likes are bigger and so is their BB axle to rear axle length which is measure of how easy you can switch turn direction.


But you are free to enjoy the extra battering of inferior suspension using hardtails.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Apr 17, 2018 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 17, 2018 7:12 am

From Luna:

Looks like this has been logged but not processed yet. ETA should be 1-2 weeks or so if I had to guess.

Alright 10 weeks for a return?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 19, 2018 5:11 am

On a high powered ebike, your drive train will fail way before your rear suspension. Remember the rider isn't getting 4x heavier, unlike the power. A dampened coil suspension will require very little service.
Not only does it get more dangerous at higher speeds with road imperfections, without a suspension every road noise and vibration goes straight to your battery, motor, controller. We haven't even talked about comfort.
Yes the triangles are smaller in general but that only means you have a bit more picking and choosing to do while finding the right frame, instead of buying the first cheap hunk.
It is a dumb move that will cost you more in the end one way or the other.
DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 7:12 am
From Luna:

Looks like this has been logged but not processed yet. ETA should be 1-2 weeks or so if I had to guess.

Alright 10 weeks for a return?
How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit for anything above XC use, but I don't have interest in those things anyway. How is it as a stealth electric motorbike that can offroad?

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