new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Chalo
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Mar 25, 2018 8:24 pm

LexHammer wrote:
Mar 25, 2018 12:08 pm
Guys what would you recommend when speaking of ease of installation, maintenance and durability - Cyclone 3000 or BBSHD?
BBSHD on all counts. Cyclone for lower cost and higher power.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Mad Matt » Mar 26, 2018 12:31 am

Chalo wrote:
Mar 25, 2018 8:24 pm
LexHammer wrote:
Mar 25, 2018 12:08 pm
Guys what would you recommend when speaking of ease of installation, maintenance and durability - Cyclone 3000 or BBSHD?
BBSHD on all counts. Cyclone for lower cost and higher power.
I run both setups on dh bikes and agree with Chalo.
Cyclone is more fun tho. Have made chain guides for both setups to stop chain drop, but the terrain I ride is rough. The cyclone tends to wreck the drive train at twice the rate of the bbshd.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by LexHammer » Mar 26, 2018 3:03 am

What about if i use it for comuting and slight off road (non paved roads)? I have the BBS02 and im happy with it, but Im tempted by the power of the Cyclone, but if i will have to do repairs often, its a big drawback for me.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Mar 26, 2018 12:53 pm

LexHammer wrote:
Mar 26, 2018 3:03 am
What about if i use it for comuting and slight off road (non paved roads)? I have the BBS02 and im happy with it, but Im tempted by the power of the Cyclone, but if i will have to do repairs often, its a big drawback for me.
Even the BBSHD will increase wear and tear compared to BBS02. More power = more damage. Bicycle parts were only ever intended to take that much power in short bursts, with sustained power at much lower levels. The higher you go above one humanpower, the faster you'll wear things out or break them.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by LexHammer » Mar 26, 2018 12:58 pm

I mean repairs on the motor, not on the bicycle. I dont care about repair on bicycle, they are easy. Repairs on the motor are harder

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Mar 26, 2018 4:18 pm

Motors themselves are stone reliable unless you demand too much power from them, or operate them grossly outside their envelopes.

If you get them really hot, you can have problems with Hall sensors, gears, or even windings. But that's not a problem with the motor, rather the operator.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Mar 26, 2018 4:52 pm

LexHammer wrote:
Mar 26, 2018 3:03 am
Im tempted by the power of the Cyclone
Are not we all tempted by more power :lol:
There is even the Cyclone 4000W which is just a different controller if I am not mistaken. Thats the one I bought. It can propel a 375lb man, from a stand still on a 10% hill for a bit of a distance. However riding pathways people hear me coming from a fair ways back, dogs get agitated by the sound of the gears. When I bought the Cyclone 4kw, I only rode it because I was too lazy to take it off. I tested it on hills for a few weeks, and rode it as a commuter for a few months. The other downside was that the mid drive setup sticks out to the casual viewer, so you get asked many times about "How fast can you go" "How far can you go" "How much does it cost"

The upside to it all is if you live in a hilly area, its perfect for you.

I have ridden a small 300-400W geared brushed motor that was noisy, similar to mid drive, but not as bad.

That is why I go with Direct Drive motors now.
I prefer stealth!
I prefer quietness!
I prefer less moving components to break!
I prefer simplicity!
That is Direct Drive

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by LexHammer » Mar 27, 2018 3:13 am

I have 4 more questions:
1. I use the PAS on BBS02 all the time and i want to have PAS on the Cylone 3000, but i read different opinions about it. Some say there is no PAS on Cyclone, others say there is. So is there a way to have PAS with at least 3 levels or not?
2. I read that there are different connectors on the Cycle Analyst v3. What kind ot connector i need for the Cyclone 3000 and is it plug and play?
3. Is there a way to program the CA v3 with different presets with different power levels for the Cyclone, like Eco (10 Amps), Normal(20 amps) and Sport(30 apms), Turbo(40 apms
4. If i use the Bluetooth controller with the phone app, do i need the Cycle Analyst?
Thank you!

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New motor mounts

Post by minimum » Apr 01, 2018 4:23 am

I got fed up with motor chain tensioner, so I designed my own. With new motor mounts to install one.
CAD:
Cyclone assembly.JPG
Mounts designed around 150x10mm 6063 aluminum bar

As you can see from cad, left side mount cuts into motor shell.
Well, it's supposed to:
20180325_105737.jpg
Mounts completed, back side:
20180324_135754.jpg
Front: (could not resist adding some polish there)
20180324_135745.jpg
(224.91 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Mock-up install (ignore the screws used):
20180324_170825.jpg
Increased center distance from 145mm to 150mm. With current length, there is actually no need for tensioner. In matter of fact, should have made it 0,5mm less, as the chain tension tends to be bit too much for my taste.

So far the mounts have been rock solid. 8)
Attachments
20180324_135745.jpg
(224.91 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 01, 2018 8:02 am

That’s great work minimum.

I had to look closely at the picture to see that you have cut a precise groove into the case of the cyclone. This eliminates the need to bend or offset the motor mount on that side, interesting. I see the mount on the crank side has some unused holes around the motor, fourth mounting bolt, any plans? If you used a new chain it might stretch and give you a perfect fit in time.

Keep up the good work.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Apr 01, 2018 9:49 am

Thanks.

At the front/lower corner is M10 hole for tensioner swingarm. CAD picture has swingarm covering that hole.
3x M6 holes for (future) chain guard.

At the bottom, 2x counterbored holes (for M8) on both sides for support block connecting both mounts together, reinforcing against lateral forces. That last bit now seems like overkill, I haven't even got around to machining it yet.
Support block.JPG

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by dirkdiggler » Apr 05, 2018 1:06 pm

That's a nice mount Minimum. What I have always wondered about the Cyclone kit. If they just made a better mount, the kit would be super solid. There is too much messing with doing the nut mod. I'm no machinist and would rather be out for a ride. You could sell a ton of mounts if you didn't cut into the motor case. I still find the Cyclone to be the best value for a high powered bike. You can't beat it.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 05, 2018 6:30 pm

Although an obstacle to getting the cyclone to work. The mount is part of what makes the cyclone a diy challange. Just like the Lipo users like myself, not sparking up, shorting out or causing any fires you can have a great power source at a great price. This knowledge and experience is your edge. The mount is less daring than the Lipo example but this is still what separates the builders from the stuck with store bought ebike types. I purposely speak of the specifics of the cyclone in vague terms out in public. Feels like you only want to share so much one you build such a one of a kind ride. Is this wrong? I’d relay kick myself if I gave someone the recipe for the start of a business or anything. Inheritant technology. Is a term I toss around a lot. Can’t give it all away. If I got this far on ES they can too I feel. I’d like to see more riders but don’t want to feel the pressure to give away all of the secrets. A modified kit is one of the terms I use. I am helping out a friend with sharing the cyclone hook up but that was to have a riding buddy.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by mr.electric » Apr 07, 2018 2:56 am

whatever happened to open source and es being the free sharing of ideas to move ebike forward. I for one celebrate Minimums sharing. Awesomeness. Its about time.
-Fat Sand Bike with 9c and 29ah pack

-Giants mascot scooter

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 10, 2018 5:22 am

Hi,
I made a custom Cyclone frame that permits to disassemble the motor without removing the bottom bracket and the crank arm.
It is useful if you need to convert your ebike in a mtb in less of one minute and with only a wrench and a screwdriver.

4 or optionally 6 M6 bolts fix the motor to the motor brackets thru the "clamps" (the C shape you see in the first pictures). The brackets are fixed on the bike also when the motor is removed. All the motor support components are made in aluminium that is enough thick to forget any kind of bend during the ride (my rides are quite extreme!)

Attached you can find the Solidworks project, is not perfect (I'm a newbe with CAD) so, please, double check before machining the pieces.

For more details please ask.

Bee free to modify and improve as you prefer this project. Only one request: please share in Endlessphere all the evolution in a open source way.
Attachments
20180217_173843.jpg
This part "clamp" is fixed with the engine
20180218_095828.jpg
the piece tichness kept aligned the engine with the chain rings
20180218_095832.jpg
is quite clean assembly
20180218_095834.jpg
bots are replaced with a longer ones
20180218_160154.jpg
motor brackets fits with the "clamp" threaded
20180218_160204_001.jpg
20180218_160524.jpg
Single bracket mount (not for run)
20180306_084619.jpg
double brackets mount...it is quite solid. The engine is locket to the bike tube with a L and a stainless steel band (only to keep engine in right position during jumps)
(148.32 KiB) Not downloaded yet
20180313_085603.jpg
Overall assembly
CycloneMotorSupport.zip
All the parts in Solidworks format
(701.25 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 10, 2018 5:29 am

Other pics form Solidworks
Attachments
Clamp_cog_side.PNG
Clamp_cog_side.PNG (51.68 KiB) Viewed 209 times
ClampRight_Side.PNG
ClampRight_Side.PNG (53.96 KiB) Viewed 209 times
Engine_Side_Bracket.PNG
Engine_Side_Bracket.PNG (28.38 KiB) Viewed 209 times
L_support.PNG
L_support.PNG (34.9 KiB) Viewed 209 times
RightBracket.PNG
RightBracket.PNG (39.23 KiB) Viewed 209 times
Spacer_Left_Side.PNG
Spacer_Left_Side.PNG (39.77 KiB) Viewed 209 times

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 10, 2018 6:39 am

Jonnydrive

What is see with your mount design is a step forward. The ideal design to me would be to have a tab added to your motor mounts and have receiving brackets on the bike frame. This would make it so that you don’t need to mount to your bottom bracket. Would probably need to use spacers if the mount plates aren’t used, no biggie. Has anyone brought the motor in closer to crank center than the stock position? Even a little closer could make the motor position more compact for in frame installs, or tight in a non technical term. I could entertain going to a 13t motor freewheel. I just went from 26” teny magnesium (I think) so so rims to nice 50mm wide 27.5” carbon wheels from AliExpress. Going from a 2.8 inch tire on a narrow rim to the new tire at 3” is such a difference pictures to follow.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 10, 2018 7:08 am

Skaiwerd wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 6:39 am
The ideal design to me would be to have a tab added to your motor mounts and have receiving brackets on the bike frame. This would make it so that you don’t need to mount to your bottom bracket.
yes, but I was unable to find a way to strongly fix the motor without welding the support directly on the bike tube, and aluminium bike frames needs Synergic AC welding machine, expensive and very difficult to manage. I have tried aluminium welding wit cheap welding machine, terrible results.
Skaiwerd wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 6:39 am
Has anyone brought the motor in closer to crank center than the stock position? Even a little closer could make the motor position more compact for in frame installs, or tight in a non technical term
Nearing the motor to the crack requires to pay attention to two things:
  • do not make the engine the lowest thing after the bike wheels (like the bafang) hitting a rocks with the motor may damage it
  • limiting the chainring size
check this out: https://paradoxkinetics.com/, this guys removed the needs of a chain (from motor and crank) by putting cogs to the engine and to the chainring. A good idea to make the system much more robust and compact.

Now I'm figuring out to reinforce the rear hub freewheel, I have broken two fat-bike freewheel hub. Once solved the motor support, the bike transmission is the weakest point of my build to face out.....
Attachments
20180406_183232.jpg
20180406_183237.jpg
20180406_183243.jpg

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 10, 2018 8:02 am

An adjustable motor frame for the purpose of eliminating the chain tensioner comes with limitations. Likely any such sliding/adjustable mechanism will work on pavement and uncluttered trail.

Observation: if you can get your motor chain on with finger forces and cranking it onto the big ring, twigs and trail debris can push it off and if twigs do not throw the chain off the chain is likely too tight.

Even though it is possible to make the Cyclone 3000 OEM frames adjustable for chain tension I have gone back to a chain tensioner but not the included OEM linkage and spring. The modified method is to anchor tight a metal tang off an extended 6" thru motor/frame bolt and fasten either a DMR or Mountain Speed grooved pulley wheel. no spring is used.
IMG_0013.JPG
A Mountain Speed Pulley
IMG_0013.JPG (137.86 KiB) Viewed 198 times
IMG_0015.JPG
The thru motor frame bolt is the anchor for the chain pulley tang
IMG_0015.JPG (157.18 KiB) Viewed 198 times
IMG_0019.JPG
The tang is inside the chain path with the DMR red pulley
IMG_0019.JPG (156.56 KiB) Viewed 198 times
The results have been quite satisfying as no twigs have yet caused a chain derailment. The setup seem quieter than OEM versions maybe the pulley-rubber dampens the contact noise?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 10, 2018 8:54 am

DingusMcGee

Your rubber roller is a nice option for the tensioner. I’ve come to the conclusion that the need to slide or pivot the motor to tension the chain is just not wort it. We’re trying to eliminate the twisting forces. Integrating the chain tensioning into the mount would just create more parts to flex, slide and need to be secured with bolts in the tightened position. I’m working on an aluminum frame cyclone3000 now. You can get a $140 with shipping, 29” frame from AliExpress and put 27.5” x 3” tires will fit. I’m not into the fat bikes but the 3 inch tire bikes is my current direction. It’s also aluminum and I’d really like to put the motor in the frame with no welding. I think I’m going to get the frame soda blasted first to remove the paint and graphics. See I can share. I priced American steel frames (for welding and the ride) and it was over $1000 + shipping. Or Canadian for $800 plus shipping. Pretty much the same features with the Asian frame and it’s super light.
Attachments
C93BBE7D-9A8B-48D0-90E8-F41E49DF95DE.jpeg

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Apr 10, 2018 12:55 pm

Great work with the mount!
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 7:08 am
Nearing the motor to the crack requires to pay attention to two things:
  • do not make the engine the lowest thing after the bike wheels (like the bafang) hitting a rocks with the motor may damage it
  • limiting the chainring size
I would append to this list: driving sprocket (cog) engagement length (well, angle actually) to the chain. Simply put - longer is better as more teeth will be engaged. Especially important if motor cog is small and/or driven sprocket large.
Now I'm figuring out to reinforce the rear hub freewheel, I have broken two fat-bike freewheel hub. Once solved the motor support, the bike transmission is the weakest point of my build to face out.....
I have thought about second tensioner on upper side. Limited travel (up to 10-15mm) and very high tension using either disc springs or similar. When full throttle is applied, upper tensioner acts as dampener. Lower tensioner would be needed as well to counteract and to compensate for any slackness.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 8:54 am
I’m working on an aluminum frame cyclone3000 now. You can get a $140 with shipping, 29” frame from AliExpress and put 27.5” x 3” tires will fit. I’m not into the fat bikes but the 3 inch tire bikes is my current direction. It’s also aluminum and I’d really like to put the motor in the frame with no welding. I think I’m going to get the frame soda blasted first to remove the paint and graphics. See I can share. I priced American steel frames (for welding and the ride) and it was over $1000 + shipping. Or Canadian for $800 plus shipping. Pretty much the same features with the Asian frame and it’s super light.
check this out https://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FROOFATV2/ ... y-v2-frame, it is only frame that I can found with a twin upper tube. My previous frame (Bottecchia) twists under heavy acceleration, this one is very solid and not so expensive.
It is a shame that have qr (quick release) dropout for rear wheel... it happens that during hard trails the wheel cames out. The best if it had a thru dropout as a downhill bike.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 10, 2018 5:27 pm

minimum wrote:
Apr 10, 2018 12:55 pm
I have thought about second tensioner on upper side. Limited travel (up to 10-15mm) and very high tension using either disc springs or similar. When full throttle is applied, upper tensioner acts as dampener. Lower tensioner would be needed as well to counteract and to compensate for any slackness.
yep, mee too, the chain without the standard front derailleur jumps sideways, but with two front chainring it is difficult to build a good chain tensioner because the chain needs to move up and down and left and ride to follow the gearings . I built a handmade prototype version, testing will came soon

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 10, 2018 6:42 pm

Jonnydrive

I’ve been swapping out my quick release in favor of a solid axle set up. I recently used a mini lathe on the front hub adapters and a power drill in the back. A little scary on a new wheel set but it has worked great so far. Some forks you can squeeze in a 10mm for the front. I like the thought of riding on a 10mm axle vs the 5mm skewer.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by sjrides » Apr 10, 2018 6:43 pm

I recently picked up one of these kits and have a few questions about the controller.. if anybody could help that would be awesome

1. Do you have to use a 3 speed switch (or jump the connections) to get the most out of the motor? I see when a 3 speed switch is not used, the controller defaults to the middle setting.

2. When using the manual cruise control feature, is the only way to disable it using the ebrake, or can you press the cruise control button again?

3. Can anyone explain the slow start/fast start settings? I think I get that when you use slow start, the motor takes a little time before going to full power.. but there is also fast start.. does this mean that when neither are enabled, that the motor still spins up slightly slower than if you enable fast start?

Thanks for your help!

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