new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Tommm   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by Tommm » Apr 23 2018 6:26am

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 23 2018 4:26am
Tommm wrote:
Apr 19 2018 1:20pm
If your solution works let us know.
It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.
What do you mean jumping around? What has changed in reguards to the forces on the chainline now? Can you share a vid?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a novatec D162SB-SL-X12 with steel casette splines and axle. It is one piece.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 24 2018 3:28am

Tommm wrote:
Apr 23 2018 6:26am
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 23 2018 4:26am
Tommm wrote:
Apr 19 2018 1:20pm
If your solution works let us know.
It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.
What do you mean jumping around? What has changed in reguards to the forces on the chainline now? Can you share a vid?

I'm about to pull the trigger on a novatec D162SB-SL-X12 with steel casette splines and axle. It is one piece.
Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by Tommm » Apr 24 2018 7:44am

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 24 2018 3:28am

Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)
Your chainring can spin without the pedal or motor working it? Is the engagement instant now or the motor freewheel still has some delay?
I bought a derailleur with a clutch(adjustable ultra strong spring) so on the bottom part I am fine. I have seen vids where the top bounces too, not sure what can be done with that. You might need a roller, even better a spring loaded one.

https://mdmetric.com/regincrt.htm
Image

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit? Bigger Chains

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 26 2018 6:58am

My freehubs are Shimano and they far outlast my chains. The rear derailleur and shifting play a part in shortening chain life. Since I have removed both derailleurs, I am seeing longer chain life. I had a talk with Staton, Inc about what options there are for switching to just a little bigger chain than the 9 speed chain.

See Staton, Inc for these chains and full width #415 sprockets

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1752

By chain numbers forget about using #25, #35 and 219 GoKart Chain as these are high speed precision chains and would be derailed easier than standard bike chain when debris get on the chain and breeches the chain pathway to the sprockets.

By ascending width the #40 chain series, which would all have the same pitch -- meaning they will fit the teeth spacing and depth of a thin bike chainring but as the chains get wider a wider sprocket can be used.

1. 12 speed chain

2. 10 speed chain

3. 9 speed chain

4. 5 -8 speed chain

5. The standard 1 speed chain, which is the #410 chain.

6. The KMC #410 HD chain has bigger side plates than the standard one speed chain.

7. The KMC #415 HD chain.

8. Some of kid's motorcycles use a #426? Chain which is quite wide for fitting in the space of the double chainring at the BB.

IMG_0020.JPG
IMG_0020.JPG (185.29 KiB) Viewed 1254 times

I decided to try the 415H chain and when it arrived its size seemed quite large but once it is on the bike it looks like a good heavy duty set up. When using the #415 series which has an internal width of 3/16" the standard one speed chain rings 1/8" will fit the chain pitch but there will be some sideways play unless you get wide enough chainrings. When the Cyclone steel chainrings are bolted together with one milled face to the inside, the combined tooth width will snugly fit into the #415 chain.

A set of 2 Cyclone chainrings, when mated, do not always have a 104 BCD pattern that aligns precisely with the rings teeth so I clamped the #415 chain around the 2 ring set and drilled out the 2x 4 holes of the 104mm BCD pattern to 25/64" which gives a very tight fit with the metric female chainring bolt part.
IMG_0007.JPG
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The chainrings are attached to the freehub using the adapter sold by Projection racing of GB.
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IMG_0011.JPG (166.84 KiB) Viewed 1254 times
The chain combination as seen from the underside of the BB
IMG_0019.JPG
IMG_0019.JPG (156.56 KiB) Viewed 1254 times

The bigger #415 chain needs a chain tensioner wheel larger than those used with 10 speed chains.
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As seen from the rear
IMG_0022.JPG
IMG_0022.JPG (145.18 KiB) Viewed 1254 times
So far the quieter setup has been working fine. But now the weaker link in the drivetrain is the freehub.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Apr 26 2018 5:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by Chalo » Apr 26 2018 1:33pm

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 23 2018 4:26am
Tommm wrote:
Apr 19 2018 1:20pm
If your solution works let us know.
It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.
That is such a bad idea. I mean, fixed gears generally are already a terrible idea, but fixed gearing with a derailleur? It's a whole raft of unnecessary problems.

Remember that nothing else in your drivetrain is designed for more torque and power than a freehub body is designed for.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit? Stronger Freehubs?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 27 2018 8:50am

Chalo,

What out there in freehub world of all the varieties could be said to be the White Industries equivalent?

I think we ebikers have not examined the freehub market to have much of an idea what is the strongest freehub. There must be some 100 freehubs other than Shimano.

See:

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pages/ ... &q=Freehub


https://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php ... ry=Freehub

Some of those shown have quite large pawls. I suppose steel alloy ones are stronger but how much $$ are you willing to spend to find out what is strongest?

I am not disappointed in having spent the $120 for SickBikeParts proprietary version of the White Industries BB freewheel as it far outlasts the Orient material. But there maybe far stronger freehubs out there than the standard Shimano freehub and little need to have a fixed version on the rear wheel?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Apr 27 2018 9:28pm

In my observation, regular steel body Shimano freehubs for 10mm axles are the most reliable. That may be different from "most unbreakable", but it's direct observation. The cassette spline can't get bigger, so making room for a larger through axle necessarily makes the ratchet smaller and weaker.

It makes sense that some of the hubs with big diameter inboard ratchets or face ratchets would be stronger, but they're usually built for light weight. Standard cheap freehub bodies are strong enough for the job they're supposed to do.

I feel like you're asking me which lightweight economy car transmission will hold up best to a bulldozer engine. And the answer is "you're asking the wrong question".

My advice is first, raise your gearing so that the torque seen by the hub is closer to human levels. Second, maybe you should use a big axle sealed bearing BMX hub shell and make a special axle for it, so it will accommodate a 7 or 8 speed freewheel and fit a 135mm frame. Freewheels have much larger diameter ratchets than freehubs.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit? Stronger Freehubs?

Post by Tommm » Apr 28 2018 10:04am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 27 2018 8:50am
Chalo,

What out there in freehub world of all the varieties could be said to be the White Industries equivalent?

I think we ebikers have not examined the freehub market to have much of an idea what is the strongest freehub. There must be some 100 freehubs other than Shimano.

See:

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pages/ ... &q=Freehub


https://www.niagaracycle.com/search.php ... ry=Freehub

Some of those shown have quite large pawls. I suppose steel alloy ones are stronger but how much $$ are you willing to spend to find out what is strongest?

I am not disappointed in having spent the $120 for SickBikeParts proprietary version of the White Industries BB freewheel as it far outlasts the Orient material. But there maybe far stronger freehubs out there than the standard Shimano freehub and little need to have a fixed version on the rear wheel?
The DT siwss 350 hubs are by far the stongest ones. They are rated upto 400nm. They engage on 5x the surface of pawl hubs, because they use a patented and completely different mechanism. The engagement is only 18t though, which can be changed to 36 or 54, but might affect the durability.

They have an ebike specific line that has steel cassette splines, can handle 500nm and has 24t engagement, but I'm not sure about aftermarket availability, if you click through the links they have wheel sets for sale though.

https://www.missionhybrid.dtswiss.com/

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 28 2018 12:19pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 26 2018 1:33pm
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 23 2018 4:26am
Tommm wrote:
Apr 19 2018 1:20pm
If your solution works let us know.
It works!
but only the time will tell if it is a long lasting solution.

NOTE: with a locked free-hub it is better idea build also a chain guide to avoid the chain to swap gears or jump around.
That is such a bad idea. I mean, fixed gears generally are already a terrible idea, but fixed gearing with a derailleur? It's a whole raft of unnecessary problems.

Remember that nothing else in your drivetrain is designed for more torque and power than a freehub body is designed for.
Chalo,
no fixed gears on my build, I have a regular 10 gears mtb cassette! The only difference of as standard mtb is that there is no freehub: the cassette is fixed with the wheel.

When the wheel spin also the cassette does, in both directions.

during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 28 2018 12:40pm

Tommm wrote:
Apr 24 2018 7:44am
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 24 2018 3:28am

Sorry for my poor explanation :lol: I mean: if you release the throttle the chain still spin because it is dragged by the wheel. On every bounce of the bike the chain inflect (the derailleur keep the chain stretched or at least it tries...) and spin, the combination of inflection and spinnging provides a chain bounce (I will try to do a video to explain this)
Your chainring can spin without the pedal or motor working it? Is the engagement instant now or the motor freewheel still has some delay?
I bought a derailleur with a clutch(adjustable ultra strong spring) so on the bottom part I am fine. I have seen vids where the top bounces too, not sure what can be done with that. You might need a roller, even better a spring loaded one.

https://mdmetric.com/regincrt.htm
yes, I have a freewheel on the pedal crank and also the motor have its own freewheel (1 ex freehub, 1 pedal freewhell, 1 motor freewheel), so rear wheel + chain + chainring are locked together but run independently from pedals and engine.
No noticeable delay during engagement.

I am afraid that friction added by a chain tensioner as the ones in your pictures could be a problem, remember that the chain during downhill is dragged from the wheel and not from the cranckset.

Maybe by adding another spring to the derailleur could avoid the chain bounce, some mods to the derailleur are coming :D

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by Tommm » Apr 28 2018 12:41pm

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:19pm


during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner
Is the top or the bottom part bouncing worse? I guess its the top as there is nothing to hold tension.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit? Bigger Chains

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 28 2018 12:46pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 26 2018 6:58am
My freehubs are Shimano and they far outlast my chains. The rear derailleur and shifting play a part in shortening chain life. Since I have removed both derailleurs, I am seeing longer chain life. I had a talk with Staton, Inc about what options there are for switching to just a little bigger chain than the 9 speed chain.
very cool DingusMcGee, for sure you gain in reliability, but if your bike is geared correctly for the mountain probably on city commute will be very sluggish .... for a mono/purpouse bike will be a perfect solution, I would try something flexible 8) 8)

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 28 2018 12:47pm

Tommm wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:41pm
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:19pm


during downhill I have noticed a chain bouncing that can be a problem without a proper chain guide/tensioner
Is the top or the bottom part bouncing worse? I guess its the top as there is nothing to hold tension.
the bottom one is the worst, it is quite unusual, also I have bet that the main problem was the upper part.
Probably is more difficult engage the right gear on the cassette because of a greater frictions or misalignment of the derailleur

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by amberwolf » Apr 29 2018 2:21am

jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:19pm

no fixed gears on my build, I have a regular 10 gears mtb cassette! The only difference of as standard mtb is that there is no freehub: the cassette is fixed with the wheel.

When the wheel spin also the cassette does, in both directions.
Thats exactly what fixed gears means, so you do indeed have fixed gears on your bike. :/

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by Tommm » Apr 29 2018 5:38am

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 29 2018 2:21am
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:19pm

no fixed gears on my build, I have a regular 10 gears mtb cassette! The only difference of as standard mtb is that there is no freehub: the cassette is fixed with the wheel.

When the wheel spin also the cassette does, in both directions.
Thats exactly what fixed gears means, so you do indeed have fixed gears on your bike. :/
It depends on if his pedals always move too, or just the chainrings. They probably don't, but I'm not sure.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?How is your coaxial bike holding up? I have one on order. It is obviously not fit f

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 29 2018 5:55am

Tommm wrote:
Apr 29 2018 5:38am
amberwolf wrote:
Apr 29 2018 2:21am
jonnydrive wrote:
Apr 28 2018 12:19pm

no fixed gears on my build, I have a regular 10 gears mtb cassette! The only difference of as standard mtb is that there is no freehub: the cassette is fixed with the wheel.

When the wheel spin also the cassette does, in both directions.
Thats exactly what fixed gears means, so you do indeed have fixed gears on your bike. :/
It depends on if his pedals always move too, or just the chainrings. They probably don't, but I'm not sure.
just the chainrings

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 29 2018 7:13am

Tommm,

The DT siwss 350 hubs are by far the stongest ones. They are rated upto 400nm. They engage on 5x the surface of pawl hubs, because they use a patented and completely different mechanism. The engagement is only 18t though, which can be changed to 36 or 54, but might affect the durability.
Thanks for data on DT

Chalo,

What do you mean by 'fixed gears" as Amberwolf says a welded freehub to hold the cassette is having fixed gears? Would having no fixed gears in the drivetrain be a continuous transmission?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 29 2018 9:12am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 29 2018 7:13am
Tommm,

The DT siwss 350 hubs are by far the stongest ones. They are rated upto 400nm. They engage on 5x the surface of pawl hubs, because they use a patented and completely different mechanism. The engagement is only 18t though, which can be changed to 36 or 54, but might affect the durability.
Thanks for data on DT

Chalo,

What do you mean by 'fixed gears" as Amberwolf says a welded freehub to hold the cassette is having fixed gears? Would having no fixed gears in the drivetrain be a continuous transmission?
I think by fixed he meant as a fixie bike, that always spins the pedals when in motion, and you slow down by putting force on them the opposite direction(as the pedal comes up from the rear).
It appears this is not the case as the chainring can spin independently from the pedals.

I'm curious for the coaxial bike(mine is in customs) this could mean you could possibly have regen while still having access to a selection of gears.
You mentioned the two chainring mounting positions on the motor work differently. If the inner one with the pedals can freewheel while the motor is engaged, if the outer one could be made to always be connected to the axle shaft, could make regen straightforward as the controllers supports it.
Not sure if there is any more freewheels in the gearbox to complicate it.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Apr 29 2018 11:47am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 29 2018 7:13am
Chalo,

What do you mean by 'fixed gears" as Amberwolf says a welded freehub to hold the cassette is having fixed gears? Would having no fixed gears in the drivetrain be a continuous transmission?
I meant that when the wheel is moving, it carries the chain. Yes, it's different than a traditional fixed gear bike in that it doesn't carry the pedals along and you can't force power in reverse. But whatever drag there is in the chain and front overrunning clutch will tend to pull the derailleur cage forward and slacken the top run of the chain. I know my BBS02 would be impossible to live with in such an arrangement, because the chainring's drag is greater than the derailleur's ability to hold tension in the chain.

If the front freeewheel is totally free running, then the system could potentially work pretty well, like Shimano's Positron/Front Freewheel system from around 1980, which was the first commercially widespread index shifting regime. But the chain tension applied by the derailleur must be able to completely overcome any tendency by the chainring to resist being rotated.

For what it's worth, Positron/FF had a rear gear cluster that didn't ratchet freely, but did have a stiff one-way clutch that would allow it to release if something got stuck in the chain. Johnnydrive doesn't have that, so he needs to take special care not to let anything (like pants for instance) get caught up in a chain that won't stop until the bike stops. Even just a caught shoelace has been enough to throw fixed gear riders down in the street.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jonnydrive » Apr 30 2018 1:11am

Chalo wrote:
Apr 29 2018 11:47am

But whatever drag there is in the chain and front overrunning clutch will tend to pull the derailleur cage forward and slacken the top run of the chain.
Exactly, this is the point.
The DingusMcGee build do not have the derailleur cage but a chain tensioner and it works. Are so different a rear derailleur and a chain tensioner? Could be a modded derailleur put enough force to oppose the dragging force?

During my first tests I was suffering chain stuck (very bed situation, you need to stop the bike immediately to avoid the derailleur breaking), I found two solution to limit the phenomenon:
  • providing a better guide for the chainring by building a simple aluminium chain inner (in the following pictures, it is installed on the right side of the smallest chainring @22t)
  • mounting a rude chain guide on the upper side of the chain for keep in position the chain also during the slacken
In the next first test-ride only the chain bouncing problem was happened
Attachments
Cattura.PNG
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Cattura2.PNG
Cattura2.PNG (17.24 KiB) Viewed 1017 times

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 30 2018 6:04am

Can you use an old front derailleur as the chain guide?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 30 2018 7:17am

Johnnydrive,

Exactly, this is the point.
The DingusMcGee build do not have the derailleur cage but a chain tensioner and it works. Are so different a rear derailleur and a chain tensioner? Could be a modded derailleur put enough force to oppose the dragging force?
My chain tensioners work quie well as they at most have to take up the chain slack of < one link. A long swing arm derailleur like the SRAM EX1 running an 11-48T cassette and a 32-44T front chain ring set may need to take up (48 - 11) + (44-32) = 49 or 24.5 links to range through all the gears. This calculation assumes the chain covers 1/2 the chain rings.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Apr 30 2018 9:56am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 30 2018 7:29am

Tommm.

I'm curious for the coaxial bike(mine is in customs) this could mean you could possibly have regen while still having access to a selection of gears.
You mentioned the two chainring mounting positions on the motor work differently. If the inner one with the pedals can freewheel while the motor is engaged, if the outer one could be made to always be connected to the axle shaft, could make regen straightforward as the controllers supports it.
Not sure if there is any more freewheels in the gearbox to complicate it.
I suppose that there is a way to hook up regen on the coaxial but there is not a lot of room.

But regen? A fuking nuisance when you brake going around a corner. If you want to reduce your green foot print move to a smaller house or get rid of your car (if applicable).

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 30 2018 11:42am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Apr 30 2018 7:29am
I suppose that there is a way to hook up regen on the coaxial but there is not a lot of room.

But regen? A fuking nuisance when you brake going around a corner. If you want to reduce your green foot print move to a smaller house or get rid of your car (if applicable).
Then it seems 203 brakes can handle the bike fine and don't overheat as much as I imagined.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 01 2018 6:55am

Tommm,

I am running Shimano Deore XT MB 8000 on the Elite Coax. No overheating problems yet.

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