new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
khorse   1 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by khorse » Nov 27 2018 11:03pm

Makes me wonder then what's grabbing all their attention. I picked a cyclone because it's entirely function rather than form, it's simple and doesn't try to hide anything. I was expecting it to become like what happened with those soviet two strokes places like sick bike parts sell, for it to start out cheap and junky then for a bunch of companies popping up with their own improved copies and aftermarket parts. What's the new big thing?

sjrides   1 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by sjrides » Nov 28 2018 3:37am

Luna seems happy to stick with Bafang stuff and also their complete bikes. I think the cyclone market must be too small.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 28 2018 6:16am

What became of the cyclone is now the coaxial motor. Similar to the bafang ultra, it needs a custom frame. Cyclone makes frames, they are ok for what they are and are improved constantly, the complete bikes with componentry are a tragedy on the other hand.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by khorse » Nov 28 2018 9:21am

That's depressing. A box from taiwan with a motor in it is one thing, but I don't want to be picking up an entire frame from the post office.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 28 2018 11:04am

khorse wrote:
Nov 28 2018 9:21am
That's depressing. A box from taiwan with a motor in it is one thing, but I don't want to be picking up an entire frame from the post office.
Mine was $250 for shipping. Bigger motors end controllers costs almost $100 to ship anyway.

Not trying to sell anyone anything. Just saying this seems to be the direction Paco has been going in, he is building a new alu frame now, all of them use that integrated motor. Must have took him a lot of time to get that motor sampling.

Smoke   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 28 2018 1:00pm

I've been reading this thread trying to get through it all. It's hard but I've made it to page 42. Maybe I'll get to the end in a week.

I bought a 3,000 watt Cyclone bare motor from Luna Cycle and I intend to use it in a Cycle Stoker style setup, so mid-drive but single chain (KMC 510 with 1/8" sprockets).

I am not a huge fan of deraileurs so I have a Sturmey Archer RS-RK3 IGH and a two speed planetary gear Patterson crank.

I'm going to set up the drivetrain for high rpm at the Cyclone motor to minimize the drivetrain loads. I'm doing this two ways. The first is my drive wheel is 20" rather than 26", 27.5" or 29", the smaller circumference means it has to spin faster to see the same speed. The second way is using a fairly large 18 or 22 tooth rear hub sprocket, in low gear that's effectively a 24 or 27.5 tooth hub sprocket and with the 20" rear wheel, it's the equivalent of a 31.2 or 35.75 tooth hub sprocket on a 26" drive wheel. The third thing I do is put a big 44 tooth chainring on the Patterson crank. In high gear that is equivalent to a 69 tooth which should let me do pedal assist at 30+ mph. Since the Cycle Stoker setup does not put motor torque through the crank, it can shift under (pedal) power with no issues.

One thing that I'm contemplating is eliminating the freewheel on the motor to use a fixed sprocket. It will add drag to the drivetrain when not in pedal assist or throttle mode but I'm not sure how much. If it's not too bad, that gives me another way to let the motor work at higher rpm and eliminate a potential weak spot. My only fear with that is if somehow the motor or controller fails in to full throttle reverse. I think that could drive the crank backward which wouldn't be nice if I'm clipped in and the motor goes to max rpm...

I'll make my own motor brackets so any flexibility is on me. Although the thing people don't seem to get about the factory bracket is that it holds the motor far from the bottom bracket without any support between the two relatively bendy flat plates. An upgrade at the motor does some good but it leaves the bigger issue unsolved.

As in the Cycle Stoker, I plan to use a strain gauge for pedal assist with a CA-V3 controlling the throttle on a Phaserunner or ASI motor controller.

Because of the number of batteries I ordered and my plan to make a semi-modular battery using 2,900mah 10A Panasonic 18650s. I'm thinking a 15s12p made up of 30x 1s6p modules which are in turn made up of 3x 1s2p subassemblies so that every cell sees a similar amount of wiring resistance. I have ordered a Chinese Bluetooth BMS that has an app developed by a UK based forum member.

I'm intending to do about a 25-30 mph cruise on an 18 mile round trip and charge up at work. I don't think I'm going to need the full 3,000 watts to do that but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts. Will 15s with a Phaserunner or ASI controller (and appropriate gearing) be enough voltage/power to get up to 40? Charging is still a question for me. With a big battery, I think a 5-6 amp charge current should be barely a trickle charger but plenty to top it up during 6-7 hours of charging at work. If anyone knows a good source for that or can tell me if my BMS can control charging current, let me know.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 28 2018 1:45pm

Smoke wrote:
Nov 28 2018 1:00pm
Because of the number of batteries I ordered and my plan to make a semi-modular battery using 2,900mah 10A Panasonic 18650s. I'm thinking a 15s12p made up of 30x 1s6p modules which are in turn made up of 3x 1s2p subassemblies so that every cell sees a similar amount of wiring resistance. I have ordered a Chinese Bluetooth BMS that has an app developed by a UK based forum member.

I'm intending to do about a 25-30 mph cruise on an 18 mile round trip and charge up at work. I don't think I'm going to need the full 3,000 watts to do that but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts. Will 15s with a Phaserunner or ASI controller (and appropriate gearing) be enough voltage/power to get up to 40? Charging is still a question for me. With a big battery, I think a 5-6 amp charge current should be barely a trickle charger but plenty to top it up during 6-7 hours of charging at work. If anyone knows a good source for that or can tell me if my BMS can control charging current, let me know.
15x12 is 180, that is a huge amount of batteries. Unless you are doing highway speeds, you can forget about needing to charge at work. I would recommend going 20s 9p though, 72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.

minimum   10 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Nov 28 2018 3:08pm

Tommm wrote:
Nov 28 2018 1:45pm
15x12 is 180, that is a huge amount of batteries. Unless you are doing highway speeds, you can forget about needing to charge at work. I would recommend going 20s 9p though, 72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.
I have 16S12P Samsung 35E's. Commuting ~25km to work takes about 30 minutes and nearly 50% battery. I can make around trip without charging but then I have to ease off on the throttle or voltage sag and LVC will start to limit a few km before finish.
Not going faster than 40km/h takes 20% battery for 25km.

Phaserunner will not work with cyclone due to it's rotor design (stray magnetic flux gives false hall pulse between magnets). Luna sold ASI, tuned to cyclone so I guess they have some kind of workaround, signal filtering maybe. Nucular controller has firmware filtering, so it should work but I would check first.
I have had my woes with Powervelocity 12F controller, using some tricks (replaced halls, added additional pull-down resistors to halls) managed to get it working but it still behaves. Trapezoidal controllers are immune to that false hall pulse.

Recently used thermal polyurethane to cast motor windings on both ends for better thermal transfer between windings and motor shell. Unfortunately I have been preoccupied and lazy to complete my "health monitoring" controller that would display temp for motor/controller/battery/ambient along with current/voltage, so I have no data how much that helped.

BTW, Have been running Shimano Alfine 8 IGH for 1500-2000km now without problems. I love the instant shifting, only need to back off throttle. But I have to admit, I had cheap derailleur before that.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 28 2018 9:30pm

The charging at work is because that is one of the few places where I'll be sitting in one place to keep an eye on things in case the battery bursts in to flames.

Also, I don't mind the idea of having my employer pay the electric bill.

I am thinking a wireless Bluetooth leash would be a good idea to suspend charging when I leave my desk without having to remember to unplug or flip a switch. I wonder if I can make my Bluetooth BMS do that or find some other Gizmo that can?

As for the number of cells, I figure the bike is going to deal with the extra weight most of the time and a 20 lb battery with an 8 lb motor is better than a 20 lb hub motor and a 10 lb battery. Also, I bought 10 amp cells so theoretically a 120 amp draw is ok, if I have 80 amp peak draw that's no big deal and a 20-40 amp cruise will be a nice easy load for the battery.

My commute will be a bit stop and go so beyond the 25-30 mph I would like to reach regularly, there will be fairly frequent accelerations from 0. I don't want to wheelie everywhere but I would like the acceleration to be fairly brisk. Hopefully I won't break 50 amps too often.

When I'm not commuting, I would like the battery to be good for a 50-60 mile trip with easy pedaling at 20-25 mph and maybe 100+ with slower speeds and more effort.

If I had bought less cells with a 20 amp rating and less mAh, I could make a lighter pack but pack life would probably be less, range would certainly be less and I'm not sure I would save any money because higher discharge rate cells cost a lot more than the $2.75 a cell I paid.

I'm going to have to look in to that false hall issue because I really want a nice compact controller that can give smooth, efficient performance with the CA-V3 strain gauge pedal assist and good current/speed/acceleration limits in software.

I thought for quite a while on the battery layout and pack voltage. My 1s6p triangular module will give me a lot of flexibility in the pack shape which is something I'm going to take advantage of. Also the two parallel modules will let me pair the weak with the strong if any balance issues come up. I'm going to try to reduce heat in the motor by getting the gearing right so it opperates at a happy high rpm. Hopefully my gearing and pedal assist settings will cadence limit my speed and power draw unless I shift up and spin it out quite a bit.
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Tommm   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 28 2018 9:37pm

Smoke wrote:
Nov 28 2018 9:30pm

I thought for quite a while on the battery layout and pack voltage. My 1s6p triangular module will give me a lot of flexibility in the pack shape which is something I'm going to take advantage of. Also the two parallel modules will let me pair the weak with the strong if any balance issues come up. I'm going to try to reduce heat in the motor by getting the gearing right so it opperates at a happy high rpm. Hopefully my gearing and pedal assist settings will cadence limit my speed and power draw unless I shift up and spin it out quite a bit.
Did you already make the battery or just have cells? 20s is superior for a number of reasons. Easier on motor/drivetrain and easier to pull more power from it because you are amp limited on controller/motor, and many more.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 28 2018 10:00pm

The cells are in the mail so not assembled yet. People seem to have good performance with 13s and 14s so 15s should be fine for me.

I would love to be able to hit 40mph on occasion and from the 48v and 52v reports, it sounds possible.

The higher voltage packs seem cool if you want to stress everything, climb hills at speed or hit 66 mph in a trike.

I just want a very capable commuter street bike with long range and a surplus of power. 48v seems to be enough for that and I'll have more.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by flat tire » Nov 29 2018 12:47am

Tommm wrote:
Nov 28 2018 1:45pm
72v is easier on the heat in the motor and the chain. For 40mph, you only need about 2000w. Anything can do that.
Explain. Torque (phase amps) and torque ramp will determine mechanical impact on drivetrain. Strain on the motor itself depends on power input and efficiency.

This motor is not good for 40mph constant unless you have a fairing or velomobile, and probably not even good for 2000W constant unless you live in the arctic. I've burned out a few cyclones racing mtb trails and have run from 60-120 volts 2-7kw. Long story short, the cyclone sucks. In the end you're better off adapting a astro motor to the stock gearbox at the very least. That's a legit motor that weighs less and won't burn out on you at the first sign of hard use.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Nov 29 2018 1:14am

flat tire wrote:
Nov 29 2018 12:47am
Explain. Torque (phase amps) and torque ramp will determine mechanical impact on drivetrain. Strain on the motor itself depends on power input and efficiency.

This motor is not good for 40mph constant unless you have a fairing or velomobile, and probably not even good for 2000W constant unless you live in the arctic.
I'll second that.
During summer with 30C I was able only short periods to sustain 60km/h.
If I'd build my battery again, I'd go for 20S. You can always gear for slower speed.

My powervelocity is curreltly set for 60A bat and 140A phase with "field weakening" (timing advance actually).

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 29 2018 8:42am

but I would like to be able to push it 40 mph if I have to for short bursts.
This is what I replied to. I wrote just about any setup can be configured to do it.
In english we are talking peak here. Unless you are a terrible builder or abuser it is very easy to do.

The 25-30mph cruise should be easy, and honestly anything above that and the danger levels rise exponentially.

More amps will mean higher stress(torque) on the drivetrain plain and simple. On a 72v system you can still get the desired wheel torque by using a higher cog on the rear. But if you use a low voltage high amp setup, all the torque is there from the motor shaft, and goes through every component, including the internal reduction gear(hence bbshd blowing up at 52v 60A but doing fine with 72v 40a).

Aside from that, let's talk about the battery itself. You are building a 180 cell pf battery. So it should be good for 3.6*10*180=6480w peak. This can be entertained with a 90a controller at 72v. If you ever used this battery with a different motor, this is all good and reasonable on both numbers.
With a 52v system, you would need over 120a to make use of your 6.5kw battery, which leaves you with much fewer and more expensive options in terms of BMS, controller and motor. To extract 5kw peak you would need 96A from your controller and the 3kw cyclone not handle it realistically, so it would be untapped performance, forever. With 72v only 69a is needed for 5000w, many people run this setup.
I would certainly not leave any performance on the table.
I think you know even the stock controller is capable of doing 72v, so with the 40a one, you would be having 2880w instead of 2080w from day one.

In practice, if you aren't interested in shifting before and after every stop light, a motor with a broader power range is more hub-like, far better to commute with, which is what the 72v setup gives you. Yes, you can do the same on a 52v bike in a lower gear with a higher amp controller, but you would be changing the drivetrain parts more often.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 29 2018 1:54pm

I don't think I would mind shifting because I'm working on modifying my integrated Shimano thumb shifters to have cable pull compatible with my IGH.

I'm only 36 cells away from an 18s12p setup and I could try 18s 6p to see if the higher voltage is worth it.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 29 2018 2:31pm

Smoke wrote:
Nov 29 2018 1:54pm
I don't think I would mind shifting because I'm working on modifying my integrated Shimano thumb shifters to have cable pull compatible with my IGH.

I'm only 36 cells away from an 18s12p setup and I could try 18s 6p to see if the higher voltage is worth it.
180 cells already is very heavy, I wouldn't be getting more, for commuting. It will make stopping even more difficult.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 29 2018 8:59pm

According to Shimano, my 203mm disks will make my brakes too powerful and even with 216 cells, that pack will only weigh about 25 lbs.

A cargo bike is pretty heavy either way but I think I would rather stop sprung weight than a big heavy hub motor but people seem to stop hub motors all the time.

I'm pretty sure that won't be an issue unless I totally fail at bleeding my brakes.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 29 2018 10:04pm

Smoke wrote:
Nov 29 2018 8:59pm
According to Shimano, my 203mm disks will make my brakes too powerful and even with 216 cells, that pack will only weigh about 25 lbs.

A cargo bike is pretty heavy either way but I think I would rather stop sprung weight than a big heavy hub motor but people seem to stop hub motors all the time.

I'm pretty sure that won't be an issue unless I totally fail at bleeding my brakes.
Talking from experience, an extra 15kg on the bike(not your body) with completely change how it brakes. I have 203 brakes with 26 wheels and they would stop super fast, added 12kg, I can't lock the front only on dirt or going very slow.
Friend with cargo bike, he has downhill brakes. I tried his brakes and I almost flew off the bike it was so strong. He added 18kg including motor and battery, now, he is looking to buy new brakes. If you don't need the extra huge battery for the commute, you shouldn't get it. Your motor won't be able to use all that power anyway.
You are much better off saving the money and weight and spending it on reliability upgrades, like better freewheel, or maybe a bluetooth controller module if you don't have one.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Alex07 » Nov 30 2018 3:10pm

khorse wrote:
Nov 26 2018 9:26pm
Any word on who's selling better motor mounts for the 3000 at the moment? Google brings me threads here for ones no longer sold, Luna doesn't have any in (and don't reply to questions about it)...

I used to think the standard mounts were fine, got used to seeing them twist a little bit. But I've been having problems with the motor freewheel slipping for no reason (not worn chain/freewheel) and eventually figured out what's going on. The flexing has gradually loosened up the bottom bracket lockrings, letting it twist more, until eventually it's flexing so much the chain detentions.

Now that's a real mess for me because my chain fell to bits when I took it off to investigate, and being in holland half links are hard to find. I need this bike for my job.

Taking every failure as an opportunity to upgrade to a stronger part.

Seems the AFT is the only one selling upgraded cyclone 3000w kits brackets ceramic bearings etc https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87658

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Nov 30 2018 8:44pm

I'm actually thinking about trying no freewheel if possible, my crank and rear hub already freewheel and my crank is a Patterson so nothing to upgrade there.

I intend to get a Phaserunner although it sounds like I may want to re-think that.

While I do intend to save money everywhere that I can do it without sacrificing quality, my battery budget isn't eating in to my controller budget or anywhere else where durability or efficiency are a concern.

I'll be happy if I'm under $2,500 when it's all said and done if it's a good commuter and good for longer trips too.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Nov 30 2018 9:44pm

Why not, the phaserunner is now listed as 90v 50a max. It should be fine.

What's the goal with no freewheel? You still won't get regen as afaik there is an internal one at the planetary gears.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Dec 01 2018 12:45am

The goal of no freewheel is that I would have to try really hard to break a keyed shaft sprocket and I could get a sprocket with less teeth for higher motor rpm with smaller hub sprocket and crank sprocket.

Although I don't have mine in hand yet, it's my understanding that the stock setup has a freewheel adapter that fits on the keyed shaft of the gear box, not a freewheel inside the planatary reduction.

While regen isn't a big goal for me, it could help take stress off the brakes during descents.

If the drag of pedaling unpowered isn't too high, it seems like it might be a good trade off.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Smoke » Dec 01 2018 1:35am

If that sounds weird, it's because I'm not going to be using my crank as a reduction gear for the motor, I'm only going to have one chain. An 11 tooth motor sprocket might be a good thing for me compared to a 13 tooth freewheel.

It's a different way of doing things but with a 20" wheel I think my gear ratios are going to be similar or a little better than the kit setup on a more conventional bike.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Dec 05 2018 3:25pm

I too am interested a 11t non freewheeling sprocket, I figure if the batteries die I can just remove the primary chain.
In theory with a 3spd fixie IGH you could run regen with the cranks freewheeling.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by paulpauls » Dec 06 2018 12:41pm

A few months ago, I bought cyclone-tw's 4kw Elite e-bike and have spent more time repairing than driving. Until today I had the following problems:

- two engine defective
battery overheats after 15 minutes cutoff
-Water caused toltal failure
-The rear hub broke after very few rides
-Three bolts of the rear suspension are too short
-The right gear shift was impossible to use because the throttle was too big to handle.
-The rear derailleur stopped working blocked the chain and destroyed the engine.
-The brakes had to be readjusted with washers
-The chain was too short and blocked
-The front derailleur is extremely difficult to adjust because of the frame / engine.
-The pedals are not the same distance from the frame.

The first engine damage happened in a slope with 32T front and 42T rear. The gears were destroyed and the shaft bent. Paco said I should drive only with the highest gear (say something before ..). The second engine (paid, Cyclone does not give a proper warranty ... only a limited warranty on the engine, controller, battery, and when it doesn`t work it is the fault of the buyer) was caused by a malfunction of the rear derailleur, which blocked the chain and completely destroyed the engine.
The battery overheated and the bike was useless a ride was only possible with long breaks. The partially paid replacement battery... I am tired of the bike and writing about it, I could describe more defects and wrong parts which I paid and were sent to, but I do not want to deal with cyclone anymore.

So think three times before you buy something from cyclone.

greetings and sorry for my English
Jonas

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