Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 20 2017 5:37pm

recumpence wrote:3 turn is the hottest 3220 that the Edge controller will handle from an amperage perspective.
Thanks Matt. I remember from some of your other posts for other builds that the Edge was copping with short bursts of up to 270 amps, so maybe with the throttle running through a CA, and limiting power to 8kw, the HV160 might survive on a 2t. Another option might be to separate out the phases (6 phase) and run two HV160s in parallel on the single motor.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 20 2017 6:26pm

briangv99 wrote:
recumpence wrote:3 turn is the hottest 3220 that the Edge controller will handle from an amperage perspective.
Thanks Matt. I remember from some of your other posts for other builds that the Edge was copping with short bursts of up to 270 amps, so maybe with the throttle running through a CA, and limiting power to 8kw, the HV160 might survive on a 2t. Another option might be to separate out the phases (6 phase) and run two HV160s in parallel on the single motor.
There are IR issues with such a low turn count. Also, you cannot run two controllers on a single 6 wire motor. If you really want a super high RPM motor that maxes out an Edge controller without blowing it, I would recommend a 4 turn 3215. However, the absolute highest performance I have found with a single controller (reliably) is a 3 turn 3220. A 4 turn delta is even higher performance, but it is very hard on the controller.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 21 2017 12:21am

recumpence wrote:
briangv99 wrote:
recumpence wrote:3 turn is the hottest 3220 that the Edge controller will handle from an amperage perspective.
Thanks Matt. I remember from some of your other posts for other builds that the Edge was copping with short bursts of up to 270 amps, so maybe with the throttle running through a CA, and limiting power to 8kw, the HV160 might survive on a 2t. Another option might be to separate out the phases (6 phase) and run two HV160s in parallel on the single motor.
There are IR issues with such a low turn count. Also, you cannot run two controllers on a single 6 wire motor. If you really want a super high RPM motor that maxes out an Edge controller without blowing it, I would recommend a 4 turn 3215. However, the absolute highest performance I have found with a single controller (reliably) is a 3 turn 3220. A 4 turn delta is even higher performance, but it is very hard on the controller.
Great feedback and first hand experience is very useful. Interesting that six phase isn't viable with an Astro. Joby was offering a 6 phase version of their JM1 to use with two HV160s. https://plus.google.com/+Jobymotors/posts/XU3CZFybpFM http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/jm1.php,
6-phase motors are for use with two hobby ESCs such as the Jeti Spin Pro 300 or Castle Creations HV160.

rpm/V at nominal load and rpm will be about 80% of listed kV
so maybe it's a winding issue with the 3220 that rules 6 phase out?

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 21 2017 6:35am

briangv99 wrote:
recumpence wrote:
briangv99 wrote:
recumpence wrote:3 turn is the hottest 3220 that the Edge controller will handle from an amperage perspective.
Thanks Matt. I remember from some of your other posts for other builds that the Edge was copping with short bursts of up to 270 amps, so maybe with the throttle running through a CA, and limiting power to 8kw, the HV160 might survive on a 2t. Another option might be to separate out the phases (6 phase) and run two HV160s in parallel on the single motor.
There are IR issues with such a low turn count. Also, you cannot run two controllers on a single 6 wire motor. If you really want a super high RPM motor that maxes out an Edge controller without blowing it, I would recommend a 4 turn 3215. However, the absolute highest performance I have found with a single controller (reliably) is a 3 turn 3220. A 4 turn delta is even higher performance, but it is very hard on the controller.
Great feedback and first hand experience is very useful. Interesting that six phase isn't viable with an Astro. Joby was offering a 6 phase version of their JM1 to use with two HV160s. https://plus.google.com/+Jobymotors/posts/XU3CZFybpFM http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/jm1.php,
6-phase motors are for use with two hobby ESCs such as the Jeti Spin Pro 300 or Castle Creations HV160.

rpm/V at nominal load and rpm will be about 80% of listed kV
so maybe it's a winding issue with the 3220 that rules 6 phase out?
I'm not sure the reasons for it. I know I asked Bob (the founder of Astro Flight) about it and he insisted it would not work because the controllers would read the winding pulses of each other as back emf and confuse each other. Maybe it should be tried out?
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by macribs » Apr 21 2017 8:08am

I really think 6 phase should be tested, if load could be split between to esc's that would be truly great.
When I read up about 6 phase motors here on ES a while back, I remember reading comments about how to sync etc. From what we know from two wheel drives, dual motors and triples sync is not an issue.

The two major benefits from a 6 phase as I see it is the possibility of running high start amps without risking the controller. For acceleration. Both in a red light scenario but also the mid range punch. Then there is redundancy. Even if one esc should short you could "limp home" using the one left.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 21 2017 9:12am

macribs wrote:I really think 6 phase should be tested, if load could be split between to esc's that would be truly great.
When I read up about 6 phase motors here on ES a while back, I remember reading comments about how to sync etc. From what we know from two wheel drives, dual motors and triples sync is not an issue.

The two major benefits from a 6 phase as I see it is the possibility of running high start amps without risking the controller. For acceleration. Both in a red light scenario but also the mid range punch. Then there is redundancy. Even if one esc should short you could "limp home" using the one left.
I've been thinking about it. I think it has to do with the way the motors are wound. Luke could answer this question far better than I. But, I bet it has to do with the fact that Astro Motors are around in an overlapping manner. If you open up the can of an astro motor you will notice that each pole is not a separate coil. Each Pole is overlapped buy one or two other poles. I don't know how to explain it, I'm not an electrical engineer or a motor technician. However, the Joby Motors are wound in such a way that each pole has its own separate coil. Again, the Astra motor polls overlap one another. I'm betting that that is why the phases will interact and give an incorrect back EMF signal on an astro motor.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by HamsterPower » Apr 21 2017 9:30am

recumpence wrote: Again, the Astra motor polls overlap one another. I'm betting that that is why the phases will interact and give an incorrect back EMF signal on an astro motor.
Matt, it's not that the Astros are incorrectly wound or give off bad signals. It is the plain fact motors and controllers are very basic such that any controller cannot discern/differentiate the signals from one motor vs another. Ever seen a controller that allows multiple simultaneous settings (e.g. 1 wye, 1 delta) or motors that are addressable?
First ever ebike build. Currently sourcing on-road commuter e-bike drive for 26" rear tadpole trike, goal is 40mph sustained- likely build:
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by macribs » Apr 21 2017 10:37am

HamsterPower wrote:
recumpence wrote: Again, the Astra motor polls overlap one another. I'm betting that that is why the phases will interact and give an incorrect back EMF signal on an astro motor.
Matt, it's not that the Astros are incorrectly wound or give off bad signals. It is the plain fact motors and controllers are very basic such that any controller cannot discern/differentiate the signals from one motor vs another. Ever seen a controller that allows multiple simultaneous settings (e.g. 1 wye, 1 delta) or motors that are addressable?

I don't understand what you say here. I mean we got several builds here on ES with 6 phase motors, where load are split on 2 controllers. The latest I've seen is the build that Steveo did: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... hubmonster

Afaik those motors are not hard to run, meaning most controllers will work. And when Joby already tested their 6 phase version with dual Hv-160 we know that even ESC's can run in tandem driving one motor. Is 6 phase is the correct term? That is maybe up for debate as I also seen the hubmonsters 6 phase motors mentioned as a 2 x 3 phase motor rather then 6 phase. End result is still the same, two controllers share the current load when powering up the motor.

I am not an EE, this is my layman understanding of the subject after reading here in ES. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.
Last edited by macribs on Apr 21 2017 11:18am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 21 2017 10:40am

HamsterPower wrote:
recumpence wrote: Again, the Astra motor polls overlap one another. I'm betting that that is why the phases will interact and give an incorrect back EMF signal on an astro motor.
Matt, it's not that the Astros are incorrectly wound or give off bad signals. It is the plain fact motors and controllers are very basic such that any controller cannot discern/differentiate the signals from one motor vs another. Ever seen a controller that allows multiple simultaneous settings (e.g. 1 wye, 1 delta) or motors that are addressable?
You are misquoting me. I never said they were incorrectly wound or sending off bad signals. I said that the manner in which they are wound such as the style of winding within the motor differs on Astros versus other Motors. I need to give you a picture for you to understand. It's not that they are incorrectly wound, it is that they are wound in a way that doesn't allow two controllers to be used together. At least that is what Bob told me several years ago when we discussed this.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 21 2017 10:52am

I just put in a call to Astro flight with this very question. One of the engineers is going to get back to me shortly. It is possible that Bob was incorrect regarding this. Bob is the one that designed this motor many years ago. So, I never had any reason to question him. However, since astroflight is under new ownership, I felt it was good to give them a call and ask what their perspective is on this. Ironically, I happen to have a 6 wire motor on order right now. If they tell me it's doable or that it may work, then I am more than willing to give it a try. :-)
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by macribs » Apr 21 2017 11:19am

1+ Matt!

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 21 2017 7:09pm

Ok boys and girls, let's get back on topic. When I hear anything from Astro, I will let you know.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 21 2017 8:52pm

recumpence wrote: But, I bet it has to do with the fact that Astro Motors are around in an overlapping manner. If you open up the can of an astro motor you will notice that each pole is not a separate coil. Each Pole is overlapped buy one or two other poles. I don't know how to explain it, I'm not an electrical engineer or a motor technician. However, the Joby Motors are wound in such a way that each pole has its own separate coil. Again, the Astra motor polls overlap one another. I'm betting that that is why the phases will interact and give an incorrect back EMF signal on an astro motor.
https://goo.gl/images/JvSlB4


Without going too far off topic, winding architecture Matt is referring to

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Sloppy Floyd » Apr 21 2017 10:21pm

So, from the pictures it looks as if you can add halls sensors to the Astro Motors? I think I remember reading something that said the Astro Motors used to be made with them already installed?

I ask bc I'm wondering if adding them would help with the start up torque issue the Phaserunner has with the Astro motors? I also think I remember reading somewhere on the Grin site that it could help as well.

errr...I think I read it on here.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by macribs » Apr 22 2017 4:02pm

Just came across this 6 phase C8085, dual ESC. Is it a 6 phase or 2 x 3 phase? :wink:


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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by notger » May 07 2017 4:40pm

[quote="macribs"]Just came across this 6 phase C8085, dual ESC. Is it a 6 phase or 2 x 3 phase? :wink:

What would be the benefit actually ?

greets

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by macribs » May 07 2017 6:36pm

@notgear Well the benefits of a 6 phase motor (2 x 3 phase really) as I see em would be to split the load between 2 ESC's/controllers. The second would be that the motor would be essentially a 2 x 3 phase motor, so kind of like two motors sharing one shaft, and "motors" would be slightly offset (one tooth?) so motor should run smoother then as a 3 phase, less cogging. Also there is some redundancy. If one controller melts down 10 miles into the woods you still have one more controller to get you home without the "walk of shame". Unless of course you run so hard both controllers give up on the same time :)

Then there is something I have yet to find out, and that is if a 6 phase (or 2 x 3 phase) possibly would have more start up torque, greater acceleration and might even output a little more power then a 3 phase. The more torque and more power I am not sure about, yet to be tested. But as the load is split between two controllers I think at least longer hi current draws would be possible given sufficient cooling.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » May 31 2017 10:54pm

I have been in receipt of Dave's masterful piece of engineering, the Tangent Ascent 6kw, for about a month and the only thing more impressive then this state of the art mid-drive is his prompt attention to after purchase care.

Not wanting to admit, but unfortunately I had to call upon Dave for his assistance for matters no fault of his mid-drive on more than a few occasions and he has been more than responsive and generous with his time. When I say "no fault of his mid-drive" I mean "fault of the user". Regardless, Dave has stepped up and provided assistance that is rarely shown in today's business world and I truly believe this is due to his passion to be the best in the industry.

I have purchased from other companies proclaiming to be the 'leaders" in e-bike technology and "trail blazers" for all to follow and NONE OF THEM come close to the quality and service Dave provides his clients. If you are interested in a cheap, throw away mid-drive, please contact those vendors as they are a dime a dozen.

However, if you want cutting-edge mid-drive technology and customer service that has no equal, contact Dave and start your path to the best and most enjoyable mid-drive ebike experience you will ever experience.

Please note I have zero stake in Dave's company and I don't even live in the same country so the only incentive I have in writing this post is the reasons I identified above.

Thank you Dave and keep achieving perfection.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Sloppy Floyd » May 31 2017 11:07pm

^Agreed!

Not the best pic, but I finally got it mounted. I just finished building my battery so once I get the rest set up I will be providing a better update. In the mean time here is a pretty terrible picture of it mounted.
IMG_20170510_212906747.jpg

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » May 31 2017 11:19pm

Holy crap, thanks guys. I'm trying hard, it means a lot. I have a feeling about that DMR Bolt...is that the long version?

The revisions inside the gearbox dropped some weight, 3kW (that's really pushing 4kW) is now under 3 kilos. This damn crankset though, it'll be so nice to lose another 2lbs off the bike. Also note the new powder coat finish, done in house.


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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Sloppy Floyd » May 31 2017 11:45pm

tangentdave wrote:...is that the long version?

It is. I ordered it from an online vendor in the UK. The mounting brackets do no interfere at all with the concentric bottom bracket - I was worried that it would. I haven't weighed it yet, but it feels just slighly heavier than my old full suss mtb even with the steel frame and motor mounted. The DNM front fork is somewhat heavy, but it actually helps balance the whole bike. I want to go to a coil spring fro the rear at some point.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by lightrush » Jun 01 2017 1:13am

Dave's simply put amazing.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by morati » Jun 01 2017 5:30am

I also have a kit coming from Dave and I cannot say enough good things with my transaction thus far. I actually bought a used bike and had it shipped directly to him so he could do a slightly custom install himself and then ship the complete bike (ready to ride) back to me. All of my countless questions were answered promptly and he's been very patient even though swamped with work being a one-man show. If his product is half as good as his customer service then I will end up picking up a second kit from him in the near future. Can't wait to ride my new bike!

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Jun 01 2017 10:56am

Can't wait to ride my new bike!
I can't wait to see this new matte black against your matte carbon frame...
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by m4k3r » Jun 05 2017 12:42am

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