Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

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cr0m08   1 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Apr 26 2018 6:59pm

Made my 1st ever upload to YouTube, of course its a ride on my gen1 3220-3turn running on 12S @ 99A (gen 1.5 upgrade coming 3220 & 3210). The bike is still currently on Tangent media page, Nukeproof Pulse, but not the wheels pictured. I'm sorry if the quality is poor, I don't really understand video and converting.
It may not be interesting to many. But I'm hoping, if there are any folks not sure if they want this amazing awesome kit from Dave, that this vid may help them change their mind. I know some don't like the noise, but I LOVE it. I used an open GoPro case so motor noise is emphasised, and I think gen1's may be louder than current? I had also fitted new hope 225mm rotors, so they were squealing the whole ride, but have settled in now. To get an idea of speed on this kit go to 3:17 in part 3 video, just a few seconds burst. Track is in the hills from Perth Aus, was very dry and slippery with loose stone in many places.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekKN6vcf2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KuYDfJ2WFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRqx7esfJE
Hopefully some of you enjoy.
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3220/HV160/CA V3 @12S, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3210/HV80/CA V3 @12S, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T/CA V3 @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Project346 Basman, QS205 4T hub motor, SVMC48150/CA V3 @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

12-C   100 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Apr 26 2018 11:31pm

thanks for the post, it's vids like this that get me through periods when I can't get out to ride :)

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 26 2018 11:38pm

What's your impression of that beefy rear suspension combined with the motor power? How does it handle the rough spots with power applied? I have a feeling that big single pivot with low(ish) anti-squat is pretty dreamy.

Screen Shot 2018-04-26 at 9.35.14 PM.png
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 27 2018 10:01pm

the brakes sound would drive any one nuts . cr0m08

it not your brake disc it your brake pads get Better ones.

do you have hope big un hubs ? 224mm are rare disc size now
nice a other kit in au

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cr0m08   1 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Apr 28 2018 4:42am

G’day Dave, well so far I’m loving the Pulse. But I haven’t really ridden any other powered bike to compare against. It certainly seems to be good under power, only trouble I’ve had is some gear jump or slip on high frequency chatter bumps at 35-40kph. However, to be fair, I haven’t done anything to set up the suspension yet, its out of the box and down the track. I must attempt to get that done.

12-C glad you like it, I also haven’t ridden for a while, shoulder surgery beginning of Feb, I expect Doc to clear me for a ride soon.

Hey Ace, yes the brakes did drive me nuts. But fortunately they have settled in and no longer squeal! But at least you can hear I’m mostly either power on or stopping, theres not much free rolling done. Hubs are Hope Pro4 and I chased all over the net to get the pair of 225mm Hope, no longer in production unfortunately. I think they are much more useful on e-bike than on just regular downhill as we carry more weight with motor, batteries and heavy wheelsets like my 24x3” I built myself.
Last edited by cr0m08 on May 01 2018 8:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3220/HV160/CA V3 @12S, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3210/HV80/CA V3 @12S, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T/CA V3 @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Project346 Basman, QS205 4T hub motor, SVMC48150/CA V3 @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Leeleeducati » Apr 28 2018 2:54pm

I had a chance to work on it a bit today. I'm sure it's fine with just the ISCG holding the bracket, but I ended up using one of the straps anyway. The assembly can't move forward and I highly doubt it would buckle that strap moving back, it's solid. It could always be beefed up if needed but I'm sure it's good. The mechanics are in, just need to wire a few more things (ebrake cut off etc.) and it should be good to go.
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totolito   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Apr 29 2018 7:22am

Beautiful!

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by knurf » Apr 29 2018 8:16am

Leeleeducati wrote:
Apr 28 2018 2:54pm
The assembly can't move forward and I highly doubt it would buckle that strap moving back, it's solid.
Very nice build (now go get it dirty 8) ) Won't the whole unit want to move back rather than forward? I think you ideally want it to keep perfectly locked down, otherwise the forces can rock the BB loose, little by little.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Leeleeducati » Apr 29 2018 9:55am

Almost time for mud... I'll post pics of the entire rig soon. As for loosening the BB, it's actually held in place on the one side with 3x6M bolts to the ISCG. so it's not even using the BB cup on that side. Then with the stiff brace holding the back and forth, I don't think anything should move or loosen. But I'll evaluate after some riding.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Iroise2000 » Apr 29 2018 11:03am

Hi from Switzerland !

I received the tangent 2 days ago, and first track today ! awesome :D :D :D
The build was easy, only some minor thing to adapt.
It is yet with 7s rclipo 10'000 mha

Thanks Dave for that so impressive kit !
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Tangent2_2.jpg
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knurf   100 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by knurf » Apr 29 2018 12:06pm

Leeleeducati wrote:
Apr 29 2018 9:55am
Almost time for mud... I'll post pics of the entire rig soon. As for loosening the BB, it's actually held in place on the one side with 3x6M bolts to the ISCG. so it's not even using the BB cup on that side. Then with the stiff brace holding the back and forth, I don't think anything should move or loosen. But I'll evaluate after some riding.
Ah yes that looks really stable, cool! Have a nice first ride!

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 30 2018 11:50am

omg these builds are so clean! muy bien.

Iroise2000, wait till you try 14s Lipo, the engine will really come to life. Also, shoot for 20,000mAh capacity; you'll see much less sag at full amp draw.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Leeleeducati » Apr 30 2018 12:37pm

Piece of art you've created. Just need to put one last wire together and I might be able to take it out later tonight and take some pics.

One question... have you successfully integrated an ebrake cutoff with the Talon 120? I'm using the CA3's input GND and EBK wires. As soon as I "short" them (as in pull the brake lever) it gives the ESC a fault so I get the (o, o, ---)error beeps. They go; beep, beep, beeeeeeep, beep, beep, beeeeeeeeep. Manual says ESC throttle error. Just keeps beeping repeatedly.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Apr 30 2018 12:57pm

You should look at Grin's Trip Wire ebrake sensor (http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... -push.html#). I use this on my bike without any issues and it is a nice clean set-up.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Mugenski » Apr 30 2018 2:45pm

I'd love to see the Castle Live Link integrated with the CA.

(The fastest way to get an answer on the internet is to state the wrong one :lol: )
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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 30 2018 2:49pm

With the new 3.1 CA firmware (loaded on yours), we can define the ebrake output. The beep-beep-beeeep is the same code issued when you enter and exit the CA menu (all beep codes are from the ESC, this one means it lost throttle signal). The CA setup defines this parameter in terms of voltage, we want to define a msec pulse output... Try setting EBRAKE SETTINGS->Throt out during ebrake= 0.95. Ebrakes worked on the 3.0 firmware, hopefully Grin means msec instead of voltage when we set throttle out to R/C pulse.

The ESC expects a constant digital pulse on the orange throttle line, the R/C industry standard is 1.0msec pulse width means zero speed, 2.0msec width is full speed. If the pulse varies too far from this, the ESC assumes a loss of signal. This 1.0-2.0 range is defined under the CA menu SETUP THROT OUT, where we also tell the CA to output the digital pulse (instead of an analog voltage used in most ebike controllers). Digital is safer than analog.


-dave
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Leeleeducati » Apr 30 2018 4:03pm

I'll have to give that a try with the ebrake.

So I did take it for a spin, wow, it's a beast! How do I tame it? No seriously, what settings do I need to change to keep it from wanting to wheelie? Most people on here will love it, but I need it to very gradually and slowly get up to speed. It's explosive!!!!

It's not that loud at all... you can hear it, but anyone with a rear Hope hub knows sound. I'd say the Pro4 is just as loud freewheeling.

Anyway, CA settings for taming?

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 30 2018 4:42pm

muahaha. There are two relevant parameters inside the CA, 'Again' and 'up rate'. The 'amp gain' is our PID tuning parameter for current control, a higher value instructs the CA to more aggressively match your throttle input. The throttle up rate is simply how quickly the CA will change the ESC throttle signal after your increased throttle input.

First try lowering SETUP PWR LIMS->Again=100 (factory value is 130). Proper setting of this parameter also relates to 'Max amps' and the specifics of your battery pack. If, during a heavy throttle event (like a drag race), you experience stuttering, the 'Again' should be lowered until power is applied totally smooth. The stuttering is the PID loop overshooting then undershooting the battery current command (throttle position); the CA is hunting for the correct battery current but taking too large of steps to be able to obtain it. If the 'Again' is set too low, the engine will feel sluggish responding to your input but no other negative effects.

Second, try lowering SETUP THROT OUT-> up rate=2.0msec/sec. Since the ESC uses a 1.0msec range for the digital throttle pulse, an up rate of 2.0msec/sec will require 1msec/(2msec/sec)= 1/2sec to increase the throttle signal from zero to full, regardless of how fast you move the twist throttle from closed to open. This will effectively dampen your throttle input and smooth out any large increases.

NOTE: The setting named 'fast up rate', don't change this, leave this at 0.05msec/sec (this has to do with smooth freewheel engagement). The 'fast threshold' is set to 2.0 amps, verify this as well.


Option 3: don't wing open the throttle if you don't want the front to come up.
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cr0m08   1 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Apr 30 2018 8:51pm

Ah I was just about to ask about ebrake settings as I've just got Grin's trip wire to put one on each bike. I'm not really into ebrakes, thats what a throttle is for, or so I thought. However I did hammer down a long descent that was stepped, just longer than the wheelbase, and no matter how hard I tried, with leaning back out over rear tire, I kept nailing the throttle slightly as the front end dropped just a fraction before the rear. This kit being so powerful, made for a fun and gnarly descent. But now I'm going to try the trip wire on front brake only just so I can kill throttle if I need.
As for the throttle settings, always good to get a recap on what you are setting Dave. I can't remember who mentioned it, but I tried throttle pass thru. WOW I freakin love it!!! Instant throttle like a two stroke MX. But due to fear for my drivetrain, I have gone back to Amp control and will play with settings to make that more responsive, so thanks heaps for the explanation again Dave.
Cheers
Darryl
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3220/HV160/CA V3 @12S, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3210/HV80/CA V3 @12S, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T/CA V3 @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Project346 Basman, QS205 4T hub motor, SVMC48150/CA V3 @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 30 2018 10:30pm

The CA is there so we don't have to use pass-thru, but I admit using it does get your attention. Pass-thru ignores the shunt inline with the battery and allows the Talon ESC to spike the phase current to max regardless of how much power that takes. 'Current' throttle mode correlates the throttle with the battery amperage (basically a torque control, although you may notice at lower RPM the motor makes more torque per throttle input than higher RPMs). We can dampen the pass-thru with the settings inside the CA and CastleLink software, but using 'current' gives you absolute control over torque with only a bit of non-linearity at low RPM. We are pushing the battery cells to about their limit, it's safer to set full throttle to our max allowed cell drain (if we monitored power, it'd be possible to over draw the cells as voltage falls).
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by aCeMadMod » May 01 2018 12:01am

hi Dave dose your kit sill use rubber spacers :?:
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » May 01 2018 11:05am

Nope, no more gaskets. The mounts just loop around the housing, super solid, no wiggle room. The tolerances are close enough I have to account for the powdercoating.
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cr0m08   1 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » May 01 2018 6:58pm

"Pass-thru ignores the shunt inline with the battery and allows the Talon ESC to spike the phase current to max regardless of how much power that takes."

Hmmm that's why the front end stands up everywhere with pass-thru, I'm running with minimum size battery, 24AHr multistars and using the HV160 ESC, so a little bit more kick again than the Talon?
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3220/HV160/CA V3 @12S, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3210/HV80/CA V3 @12S, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T/CA V3 @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Project346 Basman, QS205 4T hub motor, SVMC48150/CA V3 @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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cr0m08   1 W

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » May 01 2018 7:32pm

For some of those that may be looking to use LiPo on their Tangents and want to box it for your backpack. I did a google search and found a relatively cheap box, with description of "190x190x67 Flanged Diecast Aluminium Box". It's big enough to get two 12Ahr Multistar LiPo's into, but not for the 16Ahr unfortunately. I used some 3M Dual Lock self adhesive tape to hold the two boxes together. It's an unbelievable strong type of velcro like product (both sides the same) but it can be separated if need be. The boxes make a neat enclosure.
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BoxInBag.jpg
InsideLipoBox.jpg
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2015 Nukeproof Pulse, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3220/HV160/CA V3 @12S, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, Tangent Ascent V1.5, 3210/HV80/CA V3 @12S, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T/CA V3 @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Project346 Basman, QS205 4T hub motor, SVMC48150/CA V3 @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » May 02 2018 2:20am

Hello!

Does anyone use Em3ev's 14s6p 30Q battery? If so, what are your impressions of the 60A peak limitation of the BMS?

Dave,
Can you give us your advancement?

Thanks

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