Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 02 2018 5:31pm

Screen Shot 2018-04-02 at 3.30.55 PM.png

X-SYNC™
SRAM X-SYNC™ 1x chain rings provide the highest level of performance and durability. The SRAM X-SYNC™ tall square teeth edges engage the chain earlier than traditional triangle shaped teeth. The sharp and narrow tooth profile, as well as rounded chamfer edges, help manage a deflected chain. To provide the best possible performance in muddy conditions, the X-SYNC™ chain rings have been designed with mud-clearing recesses for the inner chain links and rollers. Engineered in Germany, X-SYNC™ rings are an integral part of the SRAM 1x™ drivetrain.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 02 2018 5:33pm

That's some fancy shit for $14
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 03 2018 6:15am

12-C wrote:
Apr 02 2018 5:11pm
I'm looking to use a wolf tooth steel Chuck ring. It's 24 t like stock but 74bcd to fit my spider.

The sick bike parts steel one lasted about 500 miles for me. I did damage it by dropping the chain a few times and jamming it. I'm pretty sure it's also a mild steel not stainless.
I haven't used the smaller wolftooth chainrings (74bcd), but the 32T ring I have installed now is much much stronger than the SBP 24T Dave sent me. I mangled the teeth on that thing in 2 rides and had to take it off when it wouldn't hold a chain anymore. I've also used their aluminum 42T extender cogs for 11-42 10 speed conversions back before you could just buy a cassette that way. They were good for 500-600 miles.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 03 2018 6:39am

Image
Here's the link to the stainless steel narrow-wide 30T or 32T rings from Wolftooth.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/col ... chainrings

Fair warning, the 32T is your best bet. The 30T will work fine too until the chain does one day drop off. Then the extra space between the 2 chainrings thats created by the little standoffs needed on the 30T will be just enough for your chain to get jammed between the 2 chainrings and it will probably snap one of the chains.

Here's my current upgrade in process.
Image

http://www.jensonusa.com/Surly-Singleat ... UvEALw_wcB

Ya the major downside is going to be price at $50. It seems a little overkill. It just showed up at the house yesterday and is sitting on my desk, so I can't report on how it works. The stock cheapie Chinese chain tensioner that Dave has been using isn't working for me.

On the chunky, rocky, bouncy terrain out here I was getting some chain tensioner drops to the outside with the stock mount. The chain would end up tensioned by the arm instead of the wheel. I couldn't really adjust the wheel OUT far enough for perfect alignment.

I initially liked how solid this unit looked, and the wheel "guides" that look like they'll keep the chain on better under movement.
When it showed up at my house I was shocked at how good the quality is, you can't twist it, even the jockey wheel is steel, and the plates next to it are steel. Actually everything but the arm itself is steel, andI believe the arm is aluminum.

After watching this video I am even more impressed. Tension can be adjusted easily with a box wrench, instead of moving a pin into a hole, and it can PUSH or PULL the chain in either direction. It's set up to work the way we need it to stock, but ships with a spring to push the other way if you mount it on the inside of your mounts (configuration in video). You might want to carry an 18 mm flat wrench on your rides just in case you need to loosen it. The jockey wheel guides can be flipped so the beveled edges face inwards to work with 1/8" chain, and it ships to work with 3/32. The jockey wheel can be moved inward or outward by loosening a bolt on the arm to let the shaft slide. There's a bolt on one end of the shaft that lets you remove the plates to flip them, or to replace the jockey wheel. You might even be able to run it without the jockey wheel plates.



I'll report back after installation and a few rides.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Apr 04 2018 7:54pm

FastJohnny wrote:
Apr 03 2018 6:15am
12-C wrote:
Apr 02 2018 5:11pm
I'm looking to use a wolf tooth steel Chuck ring. It's 24 t like stock but 74bcd to fit my spider.

The sick bike parts steel one lasted about 500 miles for me. I did damage it by dropping the chain a few times and jamming it. I'm pretty sure it's also a mild steel not stainless.
I haven't used the smaller wolftooth chainrings (74bcd), but the 32T ring I have installed now is much much stronger than the SBP 24T Dave sent me. I mangled the teeth on that thing in 2 rides and had to take it off when it wouldn't hold a chain anymore. I've also used their aluminum 42T extender cogs for 11-42 10 speed conversions back before you could just buy a cassette that way. They were good for 500-600 miles.

OOPS is stated the wrong chainring, It's actually a Blackspire not a wolf tooth.... Its the

Image

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I am ready

Post by Clyon2 » Apr 05 2018 5:04pm

I am as ready as I can be. The bike is purchased and meets more of my specs than I'd imagined possible. It is a Specialized Rockhopper, approx 2002. Upgraded wheels, brakes, fork, shock and more. Well used, but well loved. All it needs is a drive unit!

The batteries are Luna Cycle 52V, 6AH - 3 of them wired in parallel for both power and charge. Should be capable of feeding up to 150 amps to tap the full potential of the drive. The triangle is tight with only room for two so the third is under the seat. Wiring is all 10g silicone insulation flexible cable. My reading showed some controversy around parallel charging, but monitoring with multiple volt meters and charging slowly for the first connected charge showed all battery management systems balancing cells, and the charger shut off when it was done. I think it works!

Like I said, all it needs is a drive unit. I'd like to pretend I am patiently waiting, but it isn't so. Life events permitting, it will be on the road 48 hours from the arrival of the the drive. I want Dave to get it right, but I also want it on my bike!

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Re: I am ready

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Apr 05 2018 5:19pm

Clyon2 wrote:
Apr 05 2018 5:04pm

The batteries are Luna Cycle 52V, 6AH - 3 of them wired in parallel for both power and charge. Should be capable of feeding up to 150 amps to tap the full potential of the drive. The triangle is tight with only room for two so the third is under the seat. Wiring is all 10g silicone insulation flexible cable.
52V, 6AH battery? Sounds like a 14s2p pack. You'll kill that pack pretty quickly if you try to pull 50 amps from it. That would be 25 amps per cell. Unless it's using 25r cells. Is that pack using the GA cells?

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Clyon2 » Apr 05 2018 5:33pm

Agreed. 50 from 1 pack would kill it quickly if for more than a few seconds. It is, however, what the BMS is apparently rated for.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Clyon2 » Apr 05 2018 5:36pm

Yes, 25R cells

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Apr 05 2018 5:50pm

Clyon2 wrote:
Apr 05 2018 5:36pm
Yes, 25R cells
Are you sure? The 25r cells are rated as 2.5Ah. So the total capacity of the pack would have to be a multiple of 2.5. You wouldn't be able to get a 6Ah pack. I think Luna was making their mini cube batteries with either Panasonic GA cells or Samsung 30Q. Either way, just be careful not to kill your pack prematurely. It may have a 50 amp BMS, but it's unlikely the cells will be up for pushing out 50 amps.
Last edited by StinkyGoalieGuy on Apr 05 2018 6:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 05 2018 6:43pm

I think Luna uses the 30Q in those.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 05 2018 8:51pm

tangent motoped ?? :idea: :?: :twisted:
since 3 to 6kw is probably not too easy on a pedal bike chassis and drive train, how about a tangent build on a frame kit designed for more power (such as a motoped or similar) what would it take and what would it cost?? how about even higher power builds with this design, what are the power level possibilities.. what other vehicular electrification opportunities might the tangent drive accommodate (with the often copied honda e22 motor mount)..
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 05 2018 9:36pm

I can speak from experience, a Motoped is huge and heavy. You would want more power on that chassis.

Any decent downhill bike would be a better choice.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 05 2018 9:50pm

a tangent drive would be a definite improvement on the stock ice engine at 2 - 4hp and 2 ft. pounds of torque, the 125 ice gets around 10hp and 6 ft. pounds torque.. there was Matt's build of course, some golden motors builds, why not a tangent design.. also, how about tangent drive on ebike frames such as futr beta, etc..
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 05 2018 11:48pm

I've ridden an HPC Typhoon with a motoped frame. The bike was quick on the street but obviously heavy, the frame is the cause. Stout, it holds a combustion engine, but damn.

6kW is tough on the drivetrain at low RPM, the ESC makes as much torque as the throttle allows, you'll find the worst link in the chain doing seat-bump jumps. If the engine is 50% or faster, full throttle is no problem into a 20t+ cog. Keep the bike light as you can, it's like riding DH speeds without the need for a hill.

One dude just finished building a Qulbix 140, I'll ping him. He's got lots of room for battery so he'll be able to honk on it.

20180405_175301.jpg
Like I said, all it needs is a drive unit. I'd like to pretend I am patiently waiting, but it isn't so.
I do not want to be the one holding up some one's ride. But I am the one and it sux9000. Second gen gears are cut from pre-hardened 4140, this stuff is C35 hard. It takes a minute to cut this out. Look at the color of those chips! Fantastic.


Have you guys ever heard of Hexogonal Boron Nitride? I have some.
HBN.JPG
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 06 2018 12:59am

:) motoped is only ~15 lbs heavier than Sur-ron .. doesn't seem too heavy (for a moped;) .. that can handle up to ~25+kw..

I look forward to seeing the qulbix tangent build 8)
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Re: I am ready

Post by knurf » Apr 06 2018 2:38am

Clyon2 wrote:
Apr 05 2018 5:04pm
The batteries are Luna Cycle 52V, 6AH - 3 of them wired in parallel for both power and charge. Should be capable of feeding up to 150 amps to tap the full potential of the drive. The triangle is tight with only room for two so the third is under the seat.
I've used this configuration, 3x 30q packs, for a good 300 cycles (most partial) now and have some feedback. I have a 3210. Let me just say 150 amps is REALLY optimistic but I won't say impossible with new batteries, fully charged and all that. A lone pack will pull 2000w for shorter periods but the sag will be lots and the BMS will say NO.

That said, the times when i actually used >3500w are few. Pushing through deep snow is one, climbing insanely steep stuff and not falling off the bike (and keeping traction on) is another. With proper gearing, high speed runs might use too (not just for acceleration I mean) it but that is some crazy gearing required, at least with my motor winding/reduction. I get to a high speed, but the draw never stays continuously high. Accelerating is the most common place that you will see high usage peaks.

New, these three will deliver up to 14-15 ah of fun with the Tangent. Mine are down to 11 at this point, 1.5 year of use. But 300 watt hours? Never, because the BMS stops at 3.0v and a sloooow discharge down to 2.8v is required for 300Wh of power. The Tangent will not have any use for a slow discharge, as anything under 200-300w does not seem to be providing help in driving the bike.

They are safe and solid. I took a bad fall on one and dented a cell which cause the pack to act up. The BMS handled it well and I eventually opened the pack, replaced the pair and we're good again. Having one weak pack in the 3x parallel group worked just fine too, the weak pack was stopped by the BMS. They also handle regenerate charging (have on another bike) tested up to 600w bursts. I also charge them in parallel sometimes, but never tried 100%. They always connect in parallel without sparks or drama, even at some voltage difference. I don't keep them connected when not in use.

But seeing as how expensive they are to get to Europe with taxes n stuff, I would not purchase again. Im all RC lipos now.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 08 2018 9:05am

hi Dave with new rev gearbox , are you only able to glue in the stator core in the gearbox ? from a 3320 motor

or can you sill use the whole 3220 motor without any mods to make it fit .

you seem to have update pics on your website


hope you can clear that up thank you 8)
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 08 2018 10:08am

So I've been riding around with my Cycle Analyst limited to 990A for a few rides by accident.

Seems when you switch to "High Power" mode on the Cycle Analyst it multiplies the amp limits by 10. Luckily my pack is only rated for 140A and the Cycle Analyst recorded only 158.8A (8200W) as a peak. I set it back to 120A to be safe.


I'm going to take the GF, GoPro and bikes out today to hit some local dirt bike trails. I'm coming off a stomach bug, its kinda cold out and possibly muddy, but it's been too long since I've shot anything.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 08 2018 12:37pm

When swapping the CA from low to hi, or vice versa, all the current settings are scaled by 10. You'll want to double check the 'max amps' and 'Again' settings under power limits menu and also the 'fast threshold' under throttle out (set fast threshold to 2amps). The Talon has an internal current limiter of 240A (battery or phase).

I can make the new gearbox design for use with an existing 3220/3210. Let's call this v1.5 and the glued stators v2.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 08 2018 3:18pm

Proud of this girl. Trying to chase her down is getting harder and harder...

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Mugenski » Apr 08 2018 3:52pm

FastJohnny wrote:
Apr 08 2018 10:08am
So I've been riding around with my Cycle Analyst limited to 990A for a few rides by accident.

Seems when you switch to "High Power" mode on the Cycle Analyst it multiplies the amp limits by 10. Luckily my pack is only rated for 140A and the Cycle Analyst recorded only 158.8A (8200W) as a peak. I set it back to 120A to be safe.
Yes you need to be very careful with amp targeted throttle when changing to other profiles. I did the same except my battery can push twice the ESC limit. With amp targeted throttle the sensitivity of the throttle input skyrockets. Turned my bike into an on/off switch. I had to lean over the handlebars to keep the front end down until I figured out what was going on :lol:

Also noticed that changing profiles while the throttle is non-zero causes a massive throttle input during the switch. I wonder if it's addressed in newer CA firmware...

This is the gearing I am going to tryout this season. I feel like I might miss some of the small cogs for pedal assist however my chainline is taking priority. 3T 20:1 @ 14s with 18t --> 24t

Chainring/Cog
32/40 40km/h
32/34 46km/h
32/28 56km/h
32/24 65km/h
32/21 75km/h
32/18 87km/h

I spend a lot of time in my lowest cog because I love the punchy motorcycle feel. I am also a clyde these days so those large cogs help. 30t or 34t driven chainring is probably the next thing I will try.
Last edited by Mugenski on Apr 15 2018 2:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 09 2018 7:03pm

Anyone know what to use for the Cycle Analyst shunt value (under calibration) in high power mode? Is it 1.0?

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 09 2018 8:25pm

1.00000mOhm
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 09 2018 10:45pm

hi Dave can you tell me the wight saving from new gen 2 gearbox rev 2.0 to 1.5


it help make me make up my mind how buy . tangentdave dual drives.


thank you 8)

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