Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by dtx » Feb 05, 2018 6:59 am

Could you post a few pics of that setup? Might be a nice way to build a hidden on off/power switch

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Feb 07, 2018 11:45 am

Hello guys!

I'm glad to announce that I ordered the 6kW Tangent Kit :D :D

I was just being buy the battery but I have a small doubt.

I had planned to use the 6kW as a 3kW by limiting the max current, and so preserve my small battery which, up to this morning, was 4s+4s+6s built with Multistar 16000mAh lipo packs.

From HK:
(16Ah 10C) 4s: 80$ - 1390g
(16Ah 10C) 6s: 112$ - 2044g
--> So 14s1p 16Ah 10C for 272$ / 4.824kg

Now, I looked for increase the discharge rate (too hard to not use the full power of the 6kW :roll: )

From HK:
(8Ah 10C) 4s: 45$ / 0.705kg
(8Ah 10C) 6s: 50$ / 1.025kg
--> So 14s2p 16Ah 20C for 280$ / 4.87kg

Does it means that 14s1P is finally a bad choice !!!???




I also search for a meanwell able to charge the 14s (with three BattGo BG-8S for monitoring), but still not found. If someone have a solution for a bulk charge...
Waiting for my Tangent 6kW Kit :D

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Feb 07, 2018 1:36 pm

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... 4s+charger

You will want to balance charge the cells every chance you get, so I'd also think about: https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... s+bms+150A

8Ah of capacity is just not enough for 120A, I don't care what the C rate is, you want at least 16Ah for 120A. Remember, the engine is just a conversion device, it can only convert the power fed by the battery, so don't skimp. Voltage sag is the power killer destroyer of batteries.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Feb 08, 2018 12:47 am

totolito wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 11:45 am
Hello guys!

I'm glad to announce that I ordered the 6kW Tangent Kit :D :D

I was just being buy the battery but I have a small doubt.

I had planned to use the 6kW as a 3kW by limiting the max current, and so preserve my small battery which, up to this morning, was 4s+4s+6s built with Multistar 16000mAh lipo packs.

From HK:
(16Ah 10C) 4s: 80$ - 1390g
(16Ah 10C) 6s: 112$ - 2044g
--> So 14s1p 16Ah 10C for 272$ / 4.824kg

Now, I looked for increase the discharge rate (too hard to not use the full power of the 6kW :roll: )

From HK:
(8Ah 10C) 4s: 45$ / 0.705kg
(8Ah 10C) 6s: 50$ / 1.025kg
--> So 14s2p 16Ah 20C for 280$ / 4.87kg

Does it means that 14s1P is finally a bad choice !!!???




I also search for a meanwell able to charge the 14s (with three BattGo BG-8S for monitoring), but still not found. If someone have a solution for a bulk charge...

I used 5ah packs paralleled for total 20ah. running 14s. The benefit of more packs is that you are effectively drawing less amps per pack and smaller batteries with better quality cells are less expensive then the comparable larger capacity (at least that's how it worked out when I was looking for these...) This way I see minimal Vsag and minimal Vripple.

I charge with a http://www.revolectrix.com/GT1000DUO_de ... on_tab.htm
It can provide 40A per port, I use some server power supplies to power the charger. The power supplies are incredibly robust and really cheap used!

You need to remember that the reason you are buying a 6Kw motor is so you can ride like a maniac, and riding like a maniac get you less then nominal capacity when you are using high current rate, again another reason why using several smaller capacity packs in a larger parallel arrangement may be more beneficial once again.... your overall capacity may slump less even for the same choice of throttle use :D

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h

Post by totolito » Feb 08, 2018 3:32 am

tangentdave wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 1:36 pm
8Ah of capacity is just not enough for 120A, I don't care what the C rate is, you want at least 16Ah for 120A. Remember, the engine is just a conversion device, it can only convert the power fed by the battery, so don't skimp. Voltage sag is the power killer destroyer of batteries.
Hello Dave,

I was not enough clear in my previous post. I plan to use 2 8Ah in parallel instead of one 16Ah :wink:

Thanks to 12-C for the confirmation.
Waiting for my Tangent 6kW Kit :D

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Feb 08, 2018 12:08 pm

Pic of Mike's clever ebrake/glove solution:

20180207_141022.jpg
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Feb 08, 2018 12:40 pm

That's very neat.

I wonder if it might be possible to place a sensor under the rubber of the partial twist grip throttle....

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Mugenski » Feb 17, 2018 2:50 am

I like that grip safety, pretty slick. Would have saved me from my own stupidity at least once :wink:

Dave how have your IGH setups held up in the long run?

Also I wonder what type of temps this little res/pump can handle.
Last edited by Mugenski on Feb 19, 2018 12:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by aCeMadMod » Feb 17, 2018 9:32 am

hi Dave is your new gearbox only 20.1 or are sill makeing the 40.1 gearbox if ask for 8)



and what the Mike's clever ebrake/glove solution: for ? is a cut off I guess
thank you

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Feb 28, 2018 2:07 pm

ZOMG IT FITS

20180228_104450.jpg
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This is a Neu Motor, 3215/1Y. Spec wise it's identical to the Astro, 1/2" shorter and about 6mm larger diameter than a 3220 3turn. Astro is almost finished with the order of rotors/stators, once I have them in hand to fit properly I can begin machining the housings for this batch of orders. It's been a long wait this time, I did order 20 3220's tho...

The Peregrine frame rides great, the problem is the chain. It won't stay on once the suspension starts cycling. Some work needs done on the tension device and idler pulley near the swingarm pivot. Too bad, I do like smashing with high pivot frames.

That's a slick pump you found Mugenski. What if that pump pulled from the radiator where the fluid is cooler and pushed it into the motor?

-dave
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Mar 06, 2018 2:44 am

?

Which Talon ESC can use up to 14s packs ?

tangentdave wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:18 pm
The Talon ESC doesn't like voltages above about 58.5, it gives a warning. Full charge on 14s is 58.8V so we're only talking about super fresh off the charger. This is at worst a minor annoyance for literally seconds, use 14s or you'll be wishing you had the first time you try it. Just charge the 14s pack fully and use the motor to drain the top 1% off the charge if needed, reset the ESC warning, resume your ride as normal.


-dave
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

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Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Mar 06, 2018 3:33 pm

There's only one model of TalonHV, so all of them handle 95% full charge of 14s great. 100% SOC doesn't matter either, just use the current absorption capability of the 3220 to get a 3C discharge for 100ft of a fresh pack and the volts will be stay below the voltage warning. Using the Talon is worth this 'inconvenience'.

Capture.JPG
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Mar 08, 2018 9:00 am

Do they have more than one Talon HV ?

Only one is listed on their website, it is the Talon HV 120
and
The spec's listed are ... Max voltage 50.4 volt .
and they say up to 12s max .

So there are other CC Talon HV's available ?

Do the Talon HV's have a FOC program ?

The reason you are using a CC Talon HV instead of a VESC ?
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Mar 08, 2018 1:12 pm

There is one TalonHV and it handles 14s just fine. It handles my abuse just fine (even before the added heat sinks). It rides fantastic with huge startup torque from zero and being an RC ESC, let's me use all the power available in the Astro engines (since the CA is limiting battery amps, the ESC converts pack voltage into the max phase amps at all throttle positions). The Talon needs no programming and comes with it's own enclosure that works well. It's so small it's not really there. Maybe one of the 40+ Talons have died from our abuse on the bikes (although we have found out that 100V burns a hole in the side and salt water scrambles it's brains).

The VESC reference design is really limited to 12s. I'd need time to tune it, time to make an enclosure, time to customize the design (I want to use ~220kV motor with 14s). FOC produces very a linear throttle response, and I do like the field weakening's ability to create a flat torque curve all the way to redline (the RC ESC torque curve flattens for the last 10% of revs).

I'm always on the lookout for new avenues to performance, the electronics are my next project. It'll be tough be beat how well behaved the system is now with the ESC+CA/shunt, but FOC is more efficient and more advanced and the flexibility of software is nice. Once I can match the startup performance and convenience of the Talon with an FOC solution, we'll switch.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Mar 08, 2018 5:35 pm

Just a quick question, which way do I need to turn the bearing seal to gain access for clean and repack?
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Mar 08, 2018 6:06 pm

Pretty sure when I took mine apart there was no grease inside. Grease can pack into the notches and behind the pawls and cause issues. I think these brown freewheels have normal right hand threads and unscrew to the left.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by FastJohnny » Mar 08, 2018 6:09 pm

If that’s white industries or a sick bike parts freewheel it’s reverse threaded.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Mar 08, 2018 6:53 pm

Blast it with WD-40, in the gaps, on both sides. Wash out as much dirt as you can then drip some thick oil in there:
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No need to open it, but I think it's LH threaded (reverse). Could even soak it in gasoline, what else is that stuff good for?
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Mar 12, 2018 7:24 pm

Hello Dave,

How production of kits goes?

I'm a bit worring about my order... Can you give us some news about delivery times? It will be great!

Thanks
Waiting for my Tangent 6kW Kit :D

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Mar 12, 2018 10:44 pm

There's an old saying "the anticipation is always greater than the realization."

In this case I guarantee you it's the other way around :mrgreen:

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Mar 13, 2018 1:18 am

Super apologize for the delays everybody. I under anticipated the time it would be to integrate the engine. I need the stators in hand to finalize the integration with the housings, stators were delivered Friday. And then I found an issue with the eccentric gears I cut, so the work I tried to do in advance is for naught. I'll be finishing two kits at a time going forward to minimize any rework I encounter. Sure, you guys know you're at the front end of a product development but at this price it should work almost correctly out of the box.

Don't give me any leeway on the product and how it performs. Tell everyone what you think after you ride it. But in order to make that demand of you, I do need to make it mostly correct straight away. Sorry it's taking longer that I quoted, hold on. The ver1.5 units are finished and shipped; I have the 3220 Astro engines in hand finally. I feel the frustrations, my personal unit is at the end of the list so I'm not riding right now either. Most customers in the queue don't post here and I have to work from top of the list down. I'm gonna finish two kits at a time, that will get down the list quickest.

Think of it like a poorly managed Kickstarter with less risk.... The product is on its way, 4 weeks overdue right now, I know. I have to make more than 20 of em so the process to make each one correct is very important. The issues I run into are silly manufacturing problems but overcomable.


-dave
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Mar 13, 2018 10:50 am

Ok Dave,
No problem for the delay, I understand, I'm also a manufacturer ;-) The most important is to have feedback, then I Can be patient...

Take the time, make a good job !
Waiting for my Tangent 6kW Kit :D

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Dauntless » Mar 14, 2018 1:52 am

https://hackaday.com/2017/03/02/unique- ... -steppers/

It won't handle the 6kw, but these guys are trying to offer up a 3D printable drive.

I'd hoped to find something to use with some 8085 melons at 250kv, that's about 11,000rpm at 44v, eh? Seems the normal input range is in the 1,500-3,000 range, a dead end.

https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product- ... 80127.html
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Mar 14, 2018 1:37 pm

Interesting reducer. If I'm looking at it correctly, the planets are engaged with two separate ring gears simultaneously, one is allowed to spin and the 2 tooth difference between the rings is the 2nd stage reduction.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Leeleeducati » Mar 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Hey Dave,

Maybe it's a good thing there's some delays in my order. I finished putting my bike together and noticed even the curved brackets might not work on the drive side (the curved version should be fine on the non-drive side).

Looking at the drive side, to get my chainline correct, I had to put some spacers in. Now the "pedal" chainring sticks out past the face of the bottom bracket.

Do you have a curved bracket that could bolt to the ISCG tabs for the drive side?

Thanks!
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