Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

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Clyon2   1 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Clyon2 » Sep 09 2018 9:46am

I also had difficulty with my disassemble and lube task. I was able to remove the first assembly plate. I did find some evidence of glue (though I wondered if it was some other heat related goop). I cleaned it off before reassembling. The issue of realigning the wheels before reinserting the pins was another challenge. The back plate was installed with the punch marks on the freewheel side. Couldn't see them. With a crochet hook I could feel them and reassembly proceeded. Runs like a top.

If it is glued and mere mortals are not supposed to disassemble, that will make thorough removal of old grease an issue. The maintenance bulletins need to be brought into line with current reality.

I am delighted with the power. If I thought the controller and mechanics could take it, I would crank it up. With the potential for 150A for brief bursts, I have it capped at 100. Three chainrings in one wkend was enough. That seems to have settled with a steel driven narrow chainring, and precise chainline adjustment. The stock tensioner is just fine. I still have chain skip at extremes of the rear cluster. The Alfine 8 would settle that chainline issue if indeed they prove to tolerate the abuse. Temp is rarely over 100C, though some trails push it up. Ensuring low enough gears is good for temp control.

The wife (who steals it on occasion) has 2 switched settings at 15 and 20%. of max. It gives a boost for the Bob trailer and 80 lbs groceries. A true electrically assisted bike!

What fun!

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Ham » Sep 09 2018 10:53am

Alfine 8 holding fine so far...800 miles or so with the 3220
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totolito   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Sep 09 2018 11:29am

Hello!
No problem for me, I changed the grease this week-end...

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Ham » Sep 09 2018 11:47am

The transplant. Modified to fit. Finished the chain tug today. Just a few tidying bits left to go. Tangent kit is versatile as hell.
2018-09-09 17.42.42.jpg
Still need to sort cable ties and key cover and eventually a wider rear rim and of course a much better battery to truly unleash this beastie...maybe some graphics etc. Functionally sorted. ....apart from alfine 8 axle nuts...damn stock ones are made of cheese and in a silly thread of 3/8 and 26tpi which i naturally i have none of....on order.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Mugenski » Sep 09 2018 11:55am

Thanks all for everyones input. I didn't see any evidence of glue but perhaps it has been stuck together.

That bike looks great Ham! And yes, you either need a lot of 18650s or some lipo pouch cells to make full use of the tangent.

I run a 3 pos switch for a "legal setting" around 2000w with the CA doing the work of soft start and ramps. Works well in all 6 of my gears (18t-40t) and makes the bike rideable by anyone with no worrying on my end. My second profile is for offroad and is pretty much what Dave shipped me my Gen1 kit with, 130A, throttle ramps and all the other CA features. My last profile is "unlimited" which I do still happen to limit to 200A, no throttle ramps just pure Talon control (CA set to pass-thru). To use this mode you need very fine throttle control. Changing some of the settings of the Talon via Castle link would be advised if you want to use this setting regularly. It just wants to wheelie and rip your bike apart. I don't use it apart from showing off to my MTB and motorcycle buddies.

If any Tangent riders ever want to go riding in the Toronto area let me know. Trails or hooligan I am up for either :twisted:
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by 12-C » Sep 16 2018 2:10am

Just posting up my solution regarding some chain skipping/drop issues I had previously.

Solution.

I sourced a very long tooth profile narrow/wide derailleur cog. Put this on a beefy aftermarket tension arm and then threaded a bolt thru the end to limit travel at extreme. This allows for adequate movement of the chain but doesn't allow so much as to allow the chain to drop. Tension is provided by a spring(door stop pulling in tension :lol: honestly I couldn't find a strong enough spring I liked and this seems to be working really well). No dropped chains on my whole ride. No side-side play in the tensioner. Likely will make a custom cnc arm down the road when time allows.
WP_20180907_23_15_34_Pro web.jpg

totolito   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Sep 26 2018 7:57am

Hello Guys!

I'm back with a strange behavior of my CA: When I switch on the system, the LCD shows that my throttle is fully twisted. I need to disconnect the throttle and reconnect it back to see the correct value otherwise the system doesn't work.

Another strange thing, sometimes the motor take a time to stop, a bit like if the parameter of ouput throttle "Down Rate" was not to a high value.


What are your thought about this behavior?


Thanks

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Adamlivi » Sep 26 2018 9:27am

You may want to consider taking out a link... if too short adding a half link would make chain length perfecto. This was my solution.
12-C wrote:
Sep 16 2018 2:10am
Just posting up my solution regarding some chain skipping/drop issues I had previously.

Solution.

I sourced a very long tooth profile narrow/wide derailleur cog. Put this on a beefy aftermarket tension arm and then threaded a bolt thru the end to limit travel at extreme. This allows for adequate movement of the chain but doesn't allow so much as to allow the chain to drop. Tension is provided by a spring(door stop pulling in tension :lol: honestly I couldn't find a strong enough spring I liked and this seems to be working really well). No dropped chains on my whole ride. No side-side play in the tensioner. Likely will make a custom cnc arm down the road when time allows.

WP_20180907_23_15_34_Pro web.jpg

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Sep 26 2018 11:25am

Totolito, I bet the 'min input' is too close to the actual voltage output by the throttle when closed. Verify the actual input voltage on the CA's top level menu (long hold left button, scroll right thru top level until SETUP THROT IN, then move the throttle and note the max and min range measured at the CA-- also gently rest the throttle at the closed position and note the value if it's greater than when throttle snapped closed). Then enter the SETUP THROT IN menu with long press right button, scroll to 'min input' and make sure this value is 0.02-0.05V higher than the highest minimum value seen on the setup screen (increase the difference between the 'min input' setpoint and the actual value if you want a dead band at the beginning of the throttle movement).

The CA won't arm the throttle until it sees less than the minimum input value upon startup. It's possible to meet this criteria then later in the ride not have the throttle return to as low a value, which would cause the motor to continue to run when throttle closed.

-dave
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totolito   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by totolito » Sep 26 2018 11:40am

Wow I'm so stupid ans the CA is really smart :roll:

Thanks a lot for your fast reply !

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Sep 26 2018 1:21pm

I setup the CA with almost no dead band in the throttle, but that can mean as the throttle becomes dirty and physically doesn't return as far, this scenario may happen.
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dtx   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by dtx » Nov 20 2018 11:11am

Hey Dave, i can't find the store anymore. Whats up with that?

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cr0m08   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Nov 20 2018 11:49pm

A while ago I posted some images showing some cooling I added to the HV160 I'm running driving my 3220. Here is an update to show the smaller fins I used on my HV80 driving my 3210. With the same method, cut out the plastic bridge under the sticker on the back, and heat transfer double sided tape to adhere the fins.
Attachments
5069.jpg
5072.jpg
5077.jpg
5078.jpg
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, 3220/HV160 @12S V1.5, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, 3210/HV80 @12S V1.5, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Basman 346, QS205 hub motor @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 21 2018 1:23am

So I'm at capacity, I can't support more. Which means there'll be time for a redesign and time to work on our supply chain. Apparently our CNC guy isn't very fast at it (that's me) and our motor peeps would prefer more coordination. We could also use a more robust ESC solution. The Talon makes good power but is too delicate for our purpose. Plus, better motor control tech exists so let's go get it.

Two more kits out tomorrow. Much appreciation to the guys who've been waiting.

-dave
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Nov 26 2018 3:42pm

Dave

Can you post instructions on how to change the freewheel on the adapter for the Gen 2 here or on your website? Thanks.
Carbon Fat Bike - Tangent 6kw Gen 1.5 (Winter)
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 26 2018 7:44pm

Capture.JPG
Pretty easy. The FW adapter is threaded M8 and a screw can be used as a puller. It's best to put a setscrew into the center M6 threads before using the puller (protects the threads and the inside of the gearbox from debris).

-dave
Last edited by tangentdave on Nov 26 2018 8:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BonesNis   10 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Nov 26 2018 8:15pm

Thanks Dave...

Are the adapters available for purchase?

Thanks again...
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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 26 2018 8:55pm

Ya, send me an email- contact@tangentmotors.com.

The adapters are $25 and you should order the $12 freewheels from staton-inc: http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... r=southpaw

Notice the ID threads are different for the 14t FW, don't order that one. Stick with a 16t, 18t or 20t. The adapters I'll stock are 1.375x24TPI LH threads.


-dave
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cr0m08   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Nov 27 2018 9:03am

Hey Dave,
on the subject of the adaptors, freewheels etc. Just wondering if you have had to change the output piece to steel? (thinking of your unfortunate run at lost Sierra, you sheared off the out piece?) Or are the aluminium units holding up to the power most of the rest of us are putting through it? I have my gearing lower than yours for a bit more torque and less speed. I'm running V1.5 3220, 12S LiPo (less motor rpm than you) at 120amp on the CA (but as you said I probably rarely see that much amps, i think it gets to over 100) I believe I'm spinning my cranks at a max of 265rpm to 25" wheels (24X3") topping out at about 55kph. I have now changed that gearing as i have just finished self hand built 26" carbon wheels, running 2.8" Minions, so a diameter of almost 700mm. So I have changed to approx 240 crank rpm to give me similar speed with the larger wheel set. Unfortunately I haven't ridden it yet as I fell over on rocks during a photoshoot and fractured a vertebrae. So now I'm in a back brace for up to 3 months, and I'm foaming at the mouth waiting to get a ride in to see what its like. I also have a few more kms to do so I can get to the first grease change interval.
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, 3220/HV160 @12S V1.5, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, 3210/HV80 @12S V1.5, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Basman 346, QS205 hub motor @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 27 2018 2:08pm

Aluminum output carriers hold up fine in the normal arrangement. The Guerrilla Gravity bikes need to hold the FW about 1/4" farther outboard, which I accomplished by adding a stickout to the output carrier rather than shift the entire motor unit. This extra stickout, my obsession with material removal and lack of time to check the stress analysis caused me to make a weak part for the Lost Sierra. This exact piece in steel is more than strong enough, and 200+ grams heavier. I've been running steel output carrier with no problems and 140A max settings. The last 15 or so kits all have a steel output carrier, I bet nobody notices which material they have.

But more significantly I've switched the last batches to use a double-D style keyed interface to the FW adapter. Previously we used a 5mm dowel pin as a key between the output and FW adapter but we're seeing some ovaling of the keyslot in the output carrier (whether it's aluminum or steel, same amount). The ovaling doesn't affect the carrier-adapter interface, no need to replace existing carriers. The double-D style is also easier to machine and easier to hit tight tolerances.

May the healing faries course through your vertebrae cr0m08.
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cr0m08   100 mW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by cr0m08 » Nov 27 2018 6:53pm

Cheers for the well wishes Dave 👍 It's been a bad year for me as far as injury, first shoulder injury at work, now my back 😡 but as I said, I'm lucky, back could have been sooo much worse!
I didn't think I was pushing enough power through mine to do damage. I'm a good couple Kw down on your levels. But its awesome to hear of your iteration changes. I guess that's the nice thing about such a custom small volume kit, its constantly evolving, even just small changes. I think I will be emailing you for a couple grease kits and two freewheel adaptors with the single 5mm dowel pin. I had a LBS make me a tool on their lathe to fit the adaptor so I could change the freewheels, but it would be nice to have spares. Its such a good system, now that its easy to change tooth count on the motor. I have all the relevant Southpaws, 16, 18 and 20T. Enables us to set gearing for different diameter wheels or riding conditions 👍👍👍 - just like I did when racing motocross bikes...... many, many years ago.
I was wondering why this thread seamed to be rather quiet of late, then I remembered the north hemisphere is coming into winter isn't it? Or is the Tangent just so much fun that everyone is just too busy riding to be able to post! 😝
Darryl in Perth, Aust.
2015 Nukeproof Pulse, 3220/HV160 @12S V1.5, 26x2.8" Nextie 50mm wheel set
2006 KeeWee Cromo Eight, 3210/HV80 @12S V1.5, 24x3" wheel set.
1998 Marin B17, Mac 10T @18S in 19" Kris Holme Trials rims, 19x2.5" wheel set (still to finish)
part build Basman 346, QS205 hub motor @12S in 24x3" wheel set. (still to finish)

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tangentdave   1 kW

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 28 2018 1:12pm

The last dozen kits were very slow to be delivered, a couple guys waiting almost three months...that's like double the lead time I quoted. That puts a huge damper on the excitement of building your bike. My workload was part of the problem, Neutronics' workload was part of the problem, the number of CNC pieces in each kit causes slowdowns (thirteen CNC pieces needed for assembly...one CNC mill with one CAD-CAM operator/assembly tech/mech designer/customer service tech/electronics tech). Plus some R&D in the middle of it all just cause I wasn't busy enough. The removable setup for the GG Megatrail frame took some time, is totally rad and bombproof, and adds 3 more CNC parts and some welding to the process. Ugh, too much!

To speed things up, I might need to delegate the electronics out to the customers- Tangent supplies the motor/hardware, bring your own controller (I can wire about 3 kits per day...not fast enough by far). When I started, I didn't intend to supply the full kit, just the gearbox, and what I'm finding is most customers are paying for the work to be done for them at this price point. That also means some guys need more help than others setting things up, which I'm happy to do, but it takes time away from producing.

Next round of production is going to be done differently, somehow. Need more faster. Need more robust ESC. The guys as Flipsky said they're working on a 300A version of their VESC, which could improve the Tangent kit, if hopefully it supports 14s (cause 14s into 225kV is the shiznit). The ASi BAC2000 is a good controller but physically doesn't fit onto a bicycle cleanly (size of a thick paperback book).

Last kit from this round is headed out today, the donor frame for this setup is a bit different than what we've been used to:

s-l1600.jpg

-dave
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by SlowCo » Nov 28 2018 3:15pm

:shock:
How fast will that bike go with a Tangent kit? 8)

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by knurf » Nov 29 2018 2:58pm

Hey I've seen the Tangent run well with a phaserunner in some pretty old youtube vid. I have one of each and was hoping to build up a clean loaner bike with it (throttle going directly to the PR, no cycle analyst because I can't afford another one before christmas :D ).

I know it only handles 90-ish phase amps but that should be enough fun for a beginner, right? After much fiddling with the settings I can get it to spin up nice and fast, not as fast as the Castle Creations guys but steady enough. I can also get it to spin at over 12000rpm with field weakening, which sounds promising.

However I can't put ANY sort of real load on it or it will cut out with phase over current error. I can sort of get it to stop doing that by raising the "current regulator bandwidth" setting but the best I've reached was not cutting out with error, instead losing any sort of power (its less than what a 250w bike puts out). I've also fiddled with the "PLL bandwidth" to no avail. Anyone have tried this setup?

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Nov 30 2018 1:04pm

I haven't had luck with the BAC800 (phaserunner) running either a 3210 or 3220, phase overcurrent errors abound when the motor is loaded. ASi didn't design these controllers with high speed inrunners in mind. I can get the BAC2000 to play nicely with a 3220, but that controller is sort of unwieldy on a MTB, could be an option for Qulbix-like bike. According to ASi, the control scheme of the BAC800 is different from the BAC2000 and they weren't surprised when I had issues with the smaller controller on RC engines.

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