HPC Revolution XXX

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 19 2015 8:23pm

Here's the motor shaft side bearing mount. There's a 20 x 37x 9 bearing pressed in to support the other end of the motor. Still the motor side mount and spacers are left. The motor side is a bit involved with the wires, but I have an idea.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 19 2015 9:28pm

An FYI to madin88 and all those that are interested in the longevity of MTB hubs in similar drive applications... True Precision Components has some hubs in their "stealth" lineup (stealth cause there's no clicking sound when coasting). They use a one way sprag clutch bearing. Might give one of these a try if the Hope blows up. The True Precision might even be modifiable to get a beefier bearing if that original doesn't last.
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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by sn0wchyld » Sep 19 2015 10:34pm

Leeleeducati wrote:An FYI to madin88 and all those that are interested in the longevity of MTB hubs in similar drive applications... True Precision Components has some hubs in their "stealth" lineup (stealth cause there's no clicking sound when coasting). They use a one way sprag clutch bearing. Might give one of these a try if the Hope blows up. The True Precision might even be modifiable to get a beefier bearing if that original doesn't last.
it'd be interesting to see their torque handling... most sprag clutches i've seen that have decent torque handling are huge...

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by madin88 » Sep 20 2015 6:43am

torque handling of the freewheel is one part, the other part is the torque handling of the spokes and spokeflange. the larger the spoke flange diameter the lower the stress.
i have seen such oversized hub that had about 100mm diameter, but unfortunately i cannot find it anymore
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
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voicecoils   10 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by voicecoils » Sep 20 2015 6:53am

madin88 wrote:torque handling of the freewheel is one part, the other part is the torque handling of the spokes and spokeflange. the larger the spoke flange diameter the lower the stress.
i have seen such oversized hub that had about 100mm diameter, but unfortunately i cannot find it anymore
Chub Hub perhaps? http://bythehive.com/chub-hubs/

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 20 2015 7:41am

That Chub is interesting, lot's of room for internal mods... as for sprag's, there's more "industrial" versions than those I've seen most people try and use. Even the Bafang's have small needle bearing types. I've used this NSS12 in the past with success (motor side, belt drive). Sized at 12x32x10 it's small enough to fit in a hub good for 25TkN holding. If the application allows for ~50mm there's many super strong options. I need to get rolling and break some stuff first :-)
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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by speedmd » Sep 20 2015 9:49am

Nice work on the motor mounts. I may have missed it, are you planning on running the motor into the freehub? I was playing with the idea of possibly putting a sprag on the motor shaft and running direct to the brake mount. Most likely it will be a direct drive with a minimum of failure points.

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 20 2015 10:06am

I toyed around with the idea of driving direct to hub, but that involved overcoming some other hurdles. For instance swing arm movement and chain tension from where the motor would be located. The other problem was the chain line and clearing the swing arm through the entire suspension movement. I really had no choice but to run it through a freewheel crank. I even thought of using the swing arm pivot as a jackshaft. One side would have connected the motor and the other direct to the rear hub. This had some challenges also, the sproket on the jackshaft would have to be very small as would the rear sprocket on the hub to clear the swingarm. Then I got into reduction issues with all sprockets having to be that small... I think we should unite the ES members from around the world, pull resources together and design the ultimate e-bike frame from ground up!

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by speedmd » Sep 20 2015 1:08pm

You need a dual link rear to dial in the virtual pivot at the motor to eliminate tensioners /idlers and still have freedom of motor mount position IMO. That with sliding /adjusting moto style dropouts to take up chain tension as it wears /stretches. Huge rear sprockets will help clear swing arm parts a bit also. Know what you mean on that point /stock frames. Other option is to extend the swing forward and mount the motor to it as John in CR was exploring. Straight forward way is to make motor mount and swing pivot concentric / bolt in. That all makes the bb a bit of a challenge. Simple / strong is best. Look forward to seeing this built up.

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recumpence   100 GW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by recumpence » Sep 20 2015 4:49pm

Idlers and tensioners can be totally fine and reliable of done properly. I have built two bikes using spring loaded idlers for chain tension with great success!

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by speedmd » Sep 20 2015 5:03pm

Good to hear that Matt. The bike frame I have set aside for a build will need a tensioner to help clear the swing arm. Only issue I have concern on is if I decide to run regen on the bike with a tensioner setup. May need to plan to have both upper and lower rub blocks on the tensioner setup.

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 21 2015 11:47am

The RN01 was the ultimate in thinking outside the box on chainlines and tensioners... was also the inspiration to this build, especially the swing arm when I chose this frame.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 21 2015 11:49am

If only they actually made these. Speedmd, this also gives an idea of why the sprocket had to be small on the swing arm pivot jackshaft. With the chain having to pass under the swing arm, a large sprocket in the rear would cause interference, hence the freewheel crank of my build.
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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by speedmd » Sep 21 2015 1:06pm

In a ultimate setup, I would like to see bigger sprockets both sides (more teeth) to keep chain wear points down a bit. Eliminating the need for any tension devise would be a main goal also. The motor position your showing can easily be done that way with a santa cruz style dual link rear and depending on the travel you could get by the swing with something like a 15-16:40-45 tooth sprocket set comfortably. Will take some upper and lower link positioning trials to get it perfect. Wish I had the time to play with it some.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 22 2015 8:24pm

Motor side mount complete. Hopefully next batch of pictures will be the motor sub assembly complete.
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madin88   100 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by madin88 » Sep 23 2015 4:25am

fantastic workmanship and constructing^^
whats you plan for the battery?
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 23 2015 11:16am

18650 cells. Was thinking the first pack would be 18s. I can get 108 of them in a single row no problem. Cell technology is advancing so quick, 3000 mAh is here and common and quickly approaching 4000. 18ah to start and see where I need to go from there after initial road testing. Will look like this pic from earlier in the post.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 25 2015 11:11am

Subframe motor "sandwich" complete. This thing is solid and will strengthen the frame very well, sort of a "roll cage" inside the frame! Next step is to bolt this into the frame. Next set of picks should be the subframe in the frame.
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circuit   100 kW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by circuit » Sep 25 2015 11:17am

Saving these photos for later, when I'm alone..
Seriously though, nice job. I will be doing something similar.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 25 2015 11:27am

That's funny, thanks! Wait till you see this in the frame with the carbon fiber side covers and only the round motor mounts sticking out. Looks amazing.

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 26 2015 9:52am

I will bring this outside tomorrow and take some proper pictures. iPhones and basement lighting just isn't doing it.
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kiwiev   10 kW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by kiwiev » Sep 26 2015 2:53pm

Wicked mate beautiful work :D

Cheers Kiwi

fullonoob   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by fullonoob » Sep 26 2015 9:54pm

can i swing by tomorrow? :twisted:

wow very nice work cant wait see it finished!

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 27 2015 4:45am

awesome.

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: HPC Revolution XXX

Post by Leeleeducati » Sep 27 2015 9:17am

So here it is... just a few points to note, even a standard 1600mm rear brake line is too short, this frame is surprisingly long and should be good for stability. I will have to order 3000mm and cut to length to get it routed through the frame so it won't be visible. The idea is to hide all and every cable. Also those carbon covers were "samples" HPC sent me as they were at the time trying to source a manufacturer that could provide the quality finish they wanted. You can't see in the pics, but there are some areas that have fibers showing. Chris, if you're reading this, please send me the good glossy ones if you have them now (flat will do). Also I'm planning some intakes on the side of the covers for ram air cooling. I'll have the motor thermal and amp protected and see how it runs, but even a fan cooled option under the frame where you can kind of see that opening is an option. Next step is to get some chainrings and start the motor connection.
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