Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Hugh-Jassman
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 07, 2015 2:08 pm

so it is not real??? amazing CGI!! ...
well I finally found the thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=22525 thanks to Google.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Oct 07, 2015 2:18 pm

Well done Google.... :)

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 07, 2015 2:42 pm

and yet another https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =7&t=17794

what would I do with out Google?

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Oct 07, 2015 2:49 pm

Hugh-Jassman wrote:what would I do with out Google?
Follow my links?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1105932

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 15, 2016 1:52 pm

this took how many years to find, I don't remember. I just wonder if any one here has tried building and using one.??
speculation?: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =7&t=17794

I found the link in a thread from 20009!

http://scooter.wikia.com/wiki/Evo_two_s ... ansmission

Image

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Hugh-Jassman
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Evo-2 two speed gear box

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 19, 2016 4:11 pm

I really want to know how to make this kind of two speed gear work.

Should the slip clutch on the high gear be removed for electric motors? It has been said that it may not be a smooth transition between the high and low....??

Can it be built just as the simpler CGI picture shows? Wish I could find a you-tube video of it working. I just can't see how the ting works from the pictures. 2 Speed Tranny Idea https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=10782

Image

I know some one here would love to make a video of it in action, if not the real thing. Similar to this Lego gear video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzXMghxCr78

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 20, 2016 4:09 pm

ok I need to start another thread?

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 04, 2016 1:41 pm

Chalo wrote:
SlowCo wrote:Wouldn't the upcoming Bafang BBS-HD 1000W kit be a good solution then?:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0&start=50
In combination with a (very) good MTB chain and gear cluster it should give you the reductions you need.
That had better be a 6- or 7-speed MTB drivetrain, because an up-to-date 9- or 10- (or 11-speed) system is going to gargle its giblets when you add that kind of steady power. My own 9-speed bike can't take what I'm dishing out at the pedals, no power assist.
Just read this:

Chalo,

My experience has been rather different.

I've been running a Shimano RD-615 10-speed Dynasys Shadow Plus rear derailleur with SLX shifters and a 10 speed KMC chain and I haven't had any issues with close to 700 miles running @ 1800W average on my Cyclone 3000W kit. The chain wear still hasn't even reached .5%, not even close and the rear Shimano HG-62 cassette is still perfect.

FYI, the chain plates and the pins (which is what makes the chain) are exactly the same thickness as a 6 or 7 speed chain, only the round inner "washers" are narrower to make the chain narrower. The cassette is also about the same thickness as my 7 speed, maybe a hair thinner, but I wouldn't consider that enough to make a difference. So I really don't get where this is coming from?

If you shift your mid drive under load chain can, and will snap... I've done that, and I was running a (supposedly stronger) 8 speed setup then and it snapped the chain when shifting under power...

The Shadow Plus derailleur is a Godsend for high power mid-drive application: all my chain skip and chain slapping issues when over rough terrain are gone... and the shifting is super precise, definitively worth it.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Chalo
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 04, 2016 4:53 pm

10-speed chain bushings are way narrower than 7 or 8. The sprockets are thinner. Things wear out faster because the critical wear surfaces are smaller. And in my observation, you need about double the precision in your parts and setup for each gear you add to the stack.

No lie. A 10-speed system does in fact need about eight times as much adjustment as 7-speed, and you have to replace the much more expensive parts much earlier. I know this because I have to do it all the time for all kinds of customers.

700 miles is not enough to draw conclusions about durability. Only a department store bike would give up that soon.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 04, 2016 6:37 pm

Chalo wrote:10-speed chain bushings are way narrower than 7 or 8. The sprockets are thinner. Things wear out faster because the critical wear surfaces are smaller. And in my observation, you need about double the precision in your parts and setup for each gear you add to the stack.

No lie. A 10-speed system does in fact need about eight times as much adjustment as 7-speed, and you have to replace the much more expensive parts much earlier. I know this because I have to do it all the time for all kinds of customers.

700 miles is not enough to draw conclusions about durability. Only a department store bike would give up that soon.
The sprockets are marginally thinner: as in, you need a caliper to measure the difference... they are not half the thickness... and the bushings main purpose is to mesh with the sprocket teeth not hold the chain together; so when the chain stretches is not just because bushings contact surface, its mainly because the plates stretch and those are the same thickness on the 7,8, 10 chains I own.

With that said tho, the bushing thickness is absolutely irrelevant because as long as the bushing thickness is greater than the teeth thickness to mesh, then only teeth thickness matters, and again, for the record, my 8spd and 10spd Shimano cassettes have almost the same sprocket thickness, just the spacing between cogs is much narrower on the 10 tho. So, from a durability standpoint, my 10 speed is the same as my 8 speed. You might chose to run 7 spd for price, which is fine; but not because its so less durable than a 7 spd.

Not sure what your customers do, but my experience has been very positive with the 10spd cassette/derailleur combo and a 3 chainring (for 20speed). Maybe the problem is these cheap 10 dollar chains people buy, which are probably made out of the elcheapo steel that stretches easily, b/c as you probably know not all steel alloys are made equal... so perhaps investing on a good chain might be worth it after all? I run mine with a KMC 10e chain and the chain is perfect.

Perhaps my RD-615 derailleur and SLX shifters were made by aliens because to this date I had to do zero alignments to it: shifts spot on, smooth, zero noise, instant shift, no chainslap, no skipping... Now, with the entry level (I would consider most 7-8 speed as entry level these days) stuff that I've used previously it did go out of alignment real fast. My original MTB Altus 7spd derailleur had significant play after only 400 miles riding my eBike and 100 miles after alignment it would start making clicking noises again, needing another alignment... the parallelogram on the Altus wobbled real bad and the cage moves... same with my older Alivio

So, if the high end stuff was so crappy that doesn't shift right, then why on Earth would Shimano bother selling anything above the Tourney groupset? This is nonsensical, you can't compare an XTR groupset to a 7 speed Altus, they are on different leagues as far as precision, softness, silent, feel, shifting consistency and durability; and the point is that when I thought my Deore 615+ with SLX shifters was the best thing since sliced bread, I tested an XTR shifter/derailleur combo... wow, that XTR gruppo was a dream how smooth and precise these are.

Also, the derailleur clutch is one of the best things that has happened to derailleur tech since I've been riding bikes in the 80s...

Its been 700 miles with my current 3000W Cyclone, but it had 400 miles already on it with the previous GNG kit (1200W max), so a total of about 1100 eBike miles.

Do I expect my drivetrain to last 10,000 miles? probably not, but 1100 miles is already way longer than I was led to believe.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 04, 2016 7:02 pm

so when the chain stretches is not just because bushings contact surface, its mainly because the plates stretch
Thickness of steel on the side-plates is one issue, "quality" of the steel is another issue. I am of the opinion that rapid wear of a bicycle chain is frequently the result of poor lubrication, resulting in wear of the rollers and pins [thinning of the metal], but...I stand ready to be corrected if persuasive evidence can be presented....

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 04, 2016 11:29 pm

gman1971 wrote: so when the chain stretches is not just because bushings contact surface, its mainly because the plates stretch
Absolute hogwash; if you had 10% of a clue, you'd be ashamed of yourself. Hardened steel doesn't play that way.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Overclocker » Feb 05, 2016 1:42 am

yeah that's ridiculous. plates don't stretch

9spd still has a decent selection of cassettes. and the cogs have practically the same thickness as 8spd. in fact you can build a 9spd cassette from 8spd cogs using the correct spacer

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 05, 2016 3:58 am

Chalo wrote:
gman1971 wrote: so when the chain stretches is not just because bushings contact surface, its mainly because the plates stretch
Absolute hogwash; if you had 10% of a clue, you'd be ashamed of yourself. Hardened steel doesn't play that way.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
I might not have a clue, but I am trying to get one... so thanks for clueing me in with that link.

So, I can see why chain thickness would matter now; but why would it matter so much if the sprockets are the basically same thickness on both cassettes? Pin width? (not diameter) What about chain rotation? as in, you run the chain left->right for a few hundred miles, then you switch it around to right left... wouldn't that make the chain work again? (since only one side of the pin worn ?

EDIT: Looks like the chain I am running is already bushingless chain, so they should last a lot longer than the older chains that have bushing... apparently most chain designs are bushingless nowadays..

G.
Last edited by gman1971 on Feb 05, 2016 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 05, 2016 4:01 am

spinningmagnets wrote:
so when the chain stretches is not just because bushings contact surface, its mainly because the plates stretch
Thickness of steel on the side-plates is one issue, "quality" of the steel is another issue. I am of the opinion that rapid wear of a bicycle chain is frequently the result of poor lubrication, resulting in wear of the rollers and pins [thinning of the metal], but...I stand ready to be corrected if persuasive evidence can be presented....
you were right, and I got what I deserved :D heh... :oops:
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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gman1971
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 05, 2016 4:03 am

What about this bushingless chain?

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Pr ... 1124120_-1___
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 05, 2016 4:05 am

This is the chain I am running on my eBike

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CV ... ge_o08_s00

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 05, 2016 12:26 pm

Ten speed cassette cogs are 1.6-1.7 mm thick, 9 speed 1.75-1.8 mm, 8 speed 1.8-1.9 mm, 5-6-7 speed 1.85-2.0 mm, BMX 3.2 mm thick.

The upshot is that a ten speed cog will wear about twice as fast as a BMX cog. The chains themselves, on new cogs, will wear internally at the bushings and pins, based on the quality of the chain. But since the narrower cogs wear faster, this will indirectly accelerate chain wear.

I have said this too many times. Somebody needs to produce a drivetrain for high powered (over 750 watt) mid-drive bikes. A five speed cassette with cogs and spacers twice as wide as ten speed, wider idler spacers for the derailleur, and a shifter with every other detent missing/filled to use BMX chain.

A 14-42 cassette gives nice even spacing, a 3:1 or 300% or 8-24 mph range (however you want to think about it), and a minimum of seven teeth engaged.

14T 28.6 % 18T 33.3 % 24T 33.3 % 32T 31.3 % 42T

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 05, 2016 1:09 pm

My personal take is that shaft speeds on mid-drives should be high enough to allow the use of chain cogs no smaller than 14 teeth. This is to address both wear and noise issues with chains, and applies to chain cogs anywhere in the drive.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 05, 2016 2:47 pm

gman1971 wrote:EDIT: Looks like the chain I am running is already bushingless chain, so they should last a lot longer than the older chains that have bushing... apparently most chain designs are bushingless nowadays.
"Bushingless" chains have bushings; they're just stamped into the sideplates and therefore not a separate subcomponent. Bushingless chains are easier to lubricate, and allow the chain more side flex, so they're generally better for pedal bikes with derailleur shifting.

Traditional chains with bushings have a lot more projected area in the bushing-to-pin interface, so they last a lot longer in single speed applications with good sprocket alignment, like track bikes or industrial equipment. You have to lube them through the gap between sideplates, which is sometimes tricky.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 06, 2016 3:09 am

Warren wrote:My personal take is that shaft speeds on mid-drives should be high enough to allow the use of chain cogs no smaller than 14 teeth. This is to address both wear and noise issues with chains, and applies to chain cogs anywhere in the drive.
Yes, I do agree with this.

As a matter of fact, I just modified today my Cyclone crank from 44-44-32T to a 44-48-32T crank; and doing so gave me a 10% overdrive on the motor which allows the bike to reach top speed in 8th gear (15T) thus freeing the 13T and 11T cogs for just when going downhill. Basically I am trading as much torque as I can for more RPM to keep the stresses and the chain wear as low as possible.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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gman1971
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 06, 2016 3:11 am

Warren wrote:Ten speed cassette cogs are 1.6-1.7 mm thick, 9 speed 1.75-1.8 mm, 8 speed 1.8-1.9 mm, 5-6-7 speed 1.85-2.0 mm, BMX 3.2 mm thick.

The upshot is that a ten speed cog will wear about twice as fast as a BMX cog. The chains themselves, on new cogs, will wear internally at the bushings and pins, based on the quality of the chain. But since the narrower cogs wear faster, this will indirectly accelerate chain wear.

I have said this too many times. Somebody needs to produce a drivetrain for high powered (over 750 watt) mid-drive bikes. A five speed cassette with cogs and spacers twice as wide as ten speed, wider idler spacers for the derailleur, and a shifter with every other detent missing/filled to use BMX chain.

A 14-42 cassette gives nice even spacing, a 3:1 or 300% or 8-24 mph range (however you want to think about it), and a minimum of seven teeth engaged.

14T 28.6 % 18T 33.3 % 24T 33.3 % 32T 31.3 % 42T
Yeah, unfortunately a BMX drivetrain is just not possible... and don't forget the Shadow Plus clutch... that thing is great!!

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 06, 2016 10:51 am

gman1971,

"Yeah, unfortunately a BMX drivetrain is just not possible... and don't forget the Shadow Plus clutch... that thing is great!!"

Care to explain what you think is not possible about a BMX chain shifting with a derailleur?

A BMX chain is basically what was used for derailleur bikes for decades. My first roadbikes all had 5 speed rear freewheels. They shifted just fine with stiff, bushed chain that was basically indistinguishable from BMX chain. Modern ramped cogs would make that chain shift even better. Cog center-to-center spacing on those bikes was 5.5 mm. The center-to-center spacing of 5 cogs on a current cassette would be 7.9 mm. A chain as stiff as rebar would work with that much space.

The Shadow or any other derailleur could be used, simply by adding spacers and using longer bolts for the idler and jockey pulleys to give additional clearance in the cage for the wider chain.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 06, 2016 3:09 pm

Warren wrote:gman1971,

"Yeah, unfortunately a BMX drivetrain is just not possible... and don't forget the Shadow Plus clutch... that thing is great!!"

Care to explain what you think is not possible about a BMX chain shifting with a derailleur?

A BMX chain is basically what was used for derailleur bikes for decades. My first roadbikes all had 5 speed rear freewheels. They shifted just fine with stiff, bushed chain that was basically indistinguishable from BMX chain. Modern ramped cogs would make that chain shift even better. Cog center-to-center spacing on those bikes was 5.5 mm. The center-to-center spacing of 5 cogs on a current cassette would be 7.9 mm. A chain as stiff as rebar would work with that much space.

The Shadow or any other derailleur could be used, simply by adding spacers and using longer bolts for the idler and jockey pulleys to give additional clearance in the cage for the wider chain.
I meant it is not possible to acquire one... sorry...

I didn't mean the Shadow, I mean "Shadow Plus"... which adds a friction clutch to the cage spring so it doesn't move forward when going over bumps.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Chalo
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 06, 2016 3:26 pm

I worked on an oddball old road bike the other day that had problems with the chain falling into the gap between front rings. Even after installing the narrowest possible spacers and truing up the rings, there was still enough space to cause trouble. So after assessing the six-speed freewheel and the derailleur for show stoppers, I put a 1/8" BMX chain on it. It worked surprisingly well. The only ill side effect was the increased need for front derailleur trimming to eliminate rub.

I can't say that it would be a good idea for 7-speed or more, though.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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