Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

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Warren
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 15, 2016 11:42 am

Miles,

"I can draw the sprockets but aren't there already ones available, commercially? Track cogs etc."

All of the cassette single speed cogs, that I know of, are for 3/32" chain...too thin, and most have tall, single speed tooth profile, which won't shift well...needs flat top profile...only available up to 22 tooth. Would be better off using regular cassette cogs.

From my copy of Frank Berto's THE DANCING CHAIN, the bible of bicycle drive history:

In the 1890's 1/4" 6 mm chain and sprockets were the standard...heroic efforts to make 2 sprocket derailleurs using these chains.
By the 1910's...3/16" 5 mm chains and sprockets had taken over...2 sprocket derailleurs were in use.
By the 1920's 1/8" 3 mm chains and sprockets with 2, 3, and 4 sprocket systems were in use. Today this is the standard for single speed bicycles. (These bikes had 4 1/2" 114 mm spacing)
In 1936, Brampton introduced the 3/32" chain. This permitted freewheels with 5 sprockets to be used. (120 mm frame spacing)
At this point, the law of diminishing returns set in.

http://www.cyclepublishing.com/cyclingbooks/dc.html

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 12:41 pm

How about these? http://www.velodromeshop.net/index.php? ... ct&id=2153 You'd need to truncate the teeth, as you said. Only up to 20t, too. Still, as something to experiment with....

I could draw up the cogs, if someone wants to try this. The dimensions on the models I posted are accurate and I seem to remember collecting data on the fit of the Shimano type 9 spline.

Warren
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 15, 2016 1:13 pm

Miles,

It would be much cheaper to double up cheap Sunrace cassette cogs. A quick, easy experiment. And it would tell us if 3.6 mm width would hang up in the chain on shifting.

Once it warms up, I may try this on a pedal bike.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 15, 2016 1:19 pm

Very nice info about chain development! Thanks guys!! :)

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I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 1:22 pm

"The Dancing Chain" is my favorite bike book.. :)

This is good, too: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=a4I ... ng&f=false

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gman1971
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 15, 2016 1:41 pm

Miles wrote:"The Dancing Chain" is my favorite bike book.. :)

This is good, too: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=a4I ... ng&f=false
Just glanced at it, thanks! Very nice book... can't believe they used to "ice skate" to market back in the XVIII century... crazy!

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Chalo
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 15, 2016 1:52 pm

Warren wrote:It would be much cheaper to double up cheap Sunrace cassette cogs. A quick, easy experiment. And it would tell us if 3.6 mm width would hang up in the chain on shifting.
It's a worthwhile experiment, but keep in mind that so-called 1/8" (3.2mm) sprockets, for BMX and track bikes, actually measure about 0.100" (2.5mm) thick. The chains do have enough internal clearance for a 0.125" sprocket, but my impression is that using one makes them sensitive to alignment variation and inclined to stick or malfunction.

The same principle applies to so-called 3/32" sprockets, which are nominally 0.094 thick but measure about 0.080" thick if you examine them.

If you do your experiment, it would be worthwhile to try half-link chain, which costs more than the normal kind but has more space inside.
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This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 2:07 pm

Just measured a Surly 3/32" single sprocket - it's 2.05mm thick.

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Chalo
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Chalo » Feb 15, 2016 2:10 pm

Miles wrote:Just measured a Surly 3/32" single sprocket - it's 2.05mm thick.
That's 0.081" for the metric impaired.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 2:15 pm

For the rest, 3/32" = 2.38mm

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by DanGT86 » Feb 15, 2016 2:16 pm

Just messing around with the idea of a 2 speed setup and came up with this idea. Sometimes the obvious can be easily overlooked so do any of you see why this wouldn't work? Seems to eliminate one chain compared to the familiar thud style 2speed.

motor rotation is ccw
1st gear red (input sprocket) is on a freewheel (green).
2nd gear red (input sprocket) is free floating on shaft via standard bearing but has drive dogs in hub.
Grey drive dog couples 2nd gear input sprocket to shaft.
Yellow sprockets are locked to shafts at all times.
purple is output to wheel (large purple sprocket)

So shifting is done simply by sliding the grey dog coupler into the 2nd gear input. No neutral position. Also regen is possible in 2nd gear only. I'm thinking it can't roll backwards with 2nd gear engaged. Anybody see any issues with the design other than maybe needing some idlers to improve chain wrap?

Image

Warren
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Warren » Feb 15, 2016 3:01 pm

Measured single speed cog, and freewheel cog widths from the late great Sheldon Brown.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline-single.html

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Hugh-Jassman
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Feb 15, 2016 4:32 pm

Miles wrote:Lots of info in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =28&t=8644

I found this https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... p?id=19021 3d animation?? but my computer says it cannot open the file because it is damaged. Is there a way to re-post it here so that it works with out having to down load it? so far it looks the best. but I need to see how it works to understand how or where the ratcheting freewheels or one-way bearings, are.

so why doesn't some one manufacture a two speed gear box. there is definitely a market for them.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 4:50 pm

The upload was damaged when we had problems with the Endless Sphere server.

Try this one.
Attachments
Retro-direct 3A.pdf
(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 37 times

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 5:28 pm

Hugh-Jassman wrote:so why doesn't some one manufacture a two speed gear box. there is definitely a market for them.
I have a design for a retro direct gearbox using a single planetary gearset. I finished the design work three years ago and made a prototype (it's not this one). That's as far as I've got. I wasn't convinced there was a market. My priority at the moment is electric motors....

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15, 2016 5:54 pm

So, why doesn't someone manufacture a two-speed gear box. There is definitely a market for them
After many years of meeting electric bicycle big shots and pondering this very question, I have finally come to a conclusion on how to guarantee making a small fortune in the electric bicycle world...start with a large fortune.

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 15, 2016 5:56 pm

:)

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles

Post by Thud » Feb 15, 2016 6:40 pm

Is it time to unveil the latest 2-speed tranny design?

Been a long while since anyone has made a seriouse inquiry.....& of the 10 units built & delivered, the only guy who ever posted a build with one was Aussie Jester. (Heck he built two bikes with them) that & Etards road racer(which I built) is sitting in a shed somewhere in the desert.

The only guy on the waiting list is Danny Mayes.
get some......

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by DanGT86 » Feb 15, 2016 6:50 pm

Its always time!

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by gman1971 » Feb 15, 2016 7:52 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
So, why doesn't someone manufacture a two-speed gear box. There is definitely a market for them
After many years of meeting electric bicycle big shots and pondering this very question, I have finally come to a conclusion on how to guarantee making a small fortune in the electric bicycle world...start with a large fortune.
LMAO!!

So true!!

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles

Post by Miles » Feb 16, 2016 5:43 am

Thud wrote:Is it time to unveil the latest 2-speed tranny design?
Yes!

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles

Post by Tony01 » Feb 16, 2016 8:04 am

Thud wrote:Is it time to unveil the latest 2-speed tranny design?

Been a long while since anyone has made a seriouse inquiry.....& of the 10 units built & delivered, the only guy who ever posted a build with one was Aussie Jester. (Heck he built two bikes with them) that & Etards road racer(which I built) is sitting in a shed somewhere in the desert.

The only guy on the waiting list is Danny Mayes.
Sure! bring it on. Have you considered building a 3-speed dog box? I imagine you could use two dogs, one on the front shaft between 1st and 2nd gear and one on the rear shaft between 2nd and 3rd. Shift cable movement would be easy. I would never buy it of course.. cause I'm always broke... :(

Soon as I find the right gearset.. I'll start my next 2-speed auto.. should be about 15lbs lighter than the last one :mrgreen:
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Feb 16, 2016 3:56 pm

looks like I misunderstood that this was an animation... gears rotating, it does not.

Miles wrote:The upload was damaged when we had problems with the Endless Sphere server.

Try this one.

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Miles
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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by Miles » Feb 16, 2016 4:14 pm

No, just a static 3D model (click and drag to rotate).

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Re: Two speed gear box for e-cargo bicycles?

Post by cycleops612 » Mar 16, 2016 8:19 am

JIC not mentioned by others

http://xiongdamotor.en.alibaba.com/cust ... Motor.html

or better?

http://xiongdamotor.en.alibaba.com/prod ... wheel.html

a 2 gear/speed hub

seem to max out at 550w?, but such measures seem highly subjective

they seem well reviewed

i quite fancy the idea of a 2 motor bike anyhoo - 2 motors, 2 controllers & throttles, 1 battery. less overheating issues?

I may do similar with my underpowered cargo bike- add 2 speed front hub motor. Mine is a 24" wheel, so I figure a motor geared for 26" should be about right for my cargo bike.

using the hub motor to get rolling would remove much stress for the chain

it may be that your biggest issue is uphill speed, so if one of the motors is free-wheeling and geared low, that second motor may only be needed for low gear work anyhoo.
U dont know what u don't know.

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