Cyclone or GNG mid drive kit?

le15otl

100 W
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
147
Location
Gloucestershire, England
Hiya

After failing with making a rear wheel drive system I have decided to get a ready made mid drive kit.

I'm not sure what to buy though, after looking around I think either a cyclone or GNG kit.
I can't really afford an EGO or lightningrods kit even though it would be ideal.

So (at the moment) it's between the well rated 450w (1000w) GNG kit
http://www.gngebike.com/450w-brushless-mud-guard

and a cyclone 1800-3000w setup
http://www.turbobikekit.com/fast-cyclone-electric-bike-kit/cyclone-electric-bike-kit/cyclone-middrive-electric-waterproof-bike-kit-1800watt-3000watt-36volt-72volt-liop-battery-pack

I have read some bad reviews + complaints about cyclone but this kit looks really great and v. powerful but also has a warranty so I am thinking to go with this?

Has anyone got any views on the cyclone kits or think I should get a GNG 450w kit instead?
Isn't much price difference but if there are any major drawbacks with the cyclone pls let me know.
Or if you have another idea I will seriously consider it, as long as it's not too expensive :)

There are so many variables involved its quite complicated and hard to decide :?

Thanks in advance guys.
 
Hi,
I'am fully satisfied by my Cyclone engine. I have the 1680w kit overvolted:, torque, aceleration and speed are enough for a lot of fun, I cannot imagine the bigger version!

But If you choose Cyclone, you must consider bottom brackets weakness. Tipically engine torque in full acceleration flex the bb brackets making the chain slip over the cog.

Looking the 1800-3000 kit on the Cyclone website, the bottom bracket seems the same of my kit, but I'am at not 100% sure.

To avoid this problem and if you are able to, you can made new stronger brackets. If your are not, you can try to patch the problem find a way to better fix the engine to the bike frame.
Resolving this issue will make your bike something incredible fast and fun.

Bottom line, I suggest you Cyclone because of incredible power, but do not consider the kit off the shelf, you will nedd to make some customization.

Check out my post for more details
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73027
 
Lurkin do you have personal experience of the Bafang? I heard it's got a smaller motor so can overheat up hills but maybe it is better than GNG?


Jonny I am glad to hear that you are happy with cyclone and that post is very good and thorough. I can do some modding that is fine as long as the motor controller etc are all of good quality it's ok. Tbh I don't really need 3000w of power but this kit is actually even cheaper than the 1680w kit, strangely.

When you say make new stronger brackets I think you mean the silver plate going from the bottom bracket up to the motor in this pic? http://www.cerberotech.com/Fatbike/b9.PNG


Thanks a lot for the replies!
 
Yes,
these silver plate ( one per side) keep the engine in position. In my kit they are made in ergal to be light, but too much flexible.
With a little metalworking is possible to replace them with a stainless steal version, but tools are required.

You can reach same power with gng, but you need to hack or replace the controller and choose the engine chain version instead of belt kit version.

I think both kit are very good for the first experience with custom e-bike.

Comparing kits, I suggest you to carefully evaluate the weight: bigger engine is heavier, requires bigger battery pack and a strong bike.

At the beginning I had put the kit on Specialized front mtb, soon I realized that 1650w are too much to manage for an entry-level mtb ( mechanical brakes undersized and suspension fork too soft).

Fat bike is perfect and strong enought, but now it is about 25-30 kilos...if you full discharge battery during an hill is like as pedaling a steamroller!
 
I might suggest considering the chain drive GNG, rated for higher power at about the same price. The belt version you chose is quieter, but the belt wears quickly and delivers less power. Chain version Price is about $350 plus about $140 shipping.
http://www.gngebike.com/60v650w-brushless

As for Cyclone, consider the smaller version, more like the GNG in power, and below it in price. The Cyclone you picked has about 6x the power of the GNG, not comparable. The small cyclone costs about $350 plus shipping ~$125.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-1chain.htm

If you want even higher power, Lightning Rods sells a drive using the same motor as GNG, but hugely improved in the areas where GNG is weak. The "small block" version is about $800 and has plenty of power for most people.
http://www.lightningrodev.com/kits/index.html
 
The belt gng is quieter than the chain drive gng, but the belt side is really poorly designed and requires continuous belt replacements - unless you're willing to do a bit of hacking to your kit. Besides those funky belt angles, the gng is pretty darn bullet proof through rain, snow, slush, mud and hot sun.
I do not have any experience or comments for cyclone.
 
This is really useful info! I will definitely go for a chain system now, whatever the model.
On the the cyclone turbobikekit website the difference in price between a slightly smaller one and the 3000w kit is less than $100 so tho only disadvantage I can see is the fact that the motor weighs about 1kg more.

r3volved, which gng kit do you have experience with?

Jonny, I would certainly get the 1680 over the 3000 if it were cheaper. If you use a high powered setup like yours, it is easy to use lower amps and 'limit the controller if you wanted to be more economical? I have a bike that's up to the job but for longer rides it was be nice to run on just 200?

(PS I don't need insane speed, I just want to be able to cruise up steepish hills at about 20mph and comfortably do 30 on the flat, without overheating the motor. Maybe a GNG kit w/ chain drive will do this fine?)
 
My experience is to the one you linked - v1.1
They did some redesign though and I don't know if that one is still available... This is the new one: http://www.gngebike.com/48v500w-2015-belt

I don't know if the new one is any better on the belt. Looks like less bending, but still pretty big.
 
Ok, and how does it perform up hills?
Can you climb say a 1:15 hill at 20mph without the motor suffering? Is it always the controller that limits you and not the motor temp.

Thx :D
 
le15otl said:
Lurkin do you have personal experience of the Bafang? I heard it's got a smaller motor so can overheat up hills but maybe it is better than GNG?


Jonny I am glad to hear that you are happy with cyclone and that post is very good and thorough. I can do some modding that is fine as long as the motor controller etc are all of good quality it's ok. Tbh I don't really need 3000w of power but this kit is actually even cheaper than the 1680w kit, strangely.

When you say make new stronger brackets I think you mean the silver plate going from the bottom bracket up to the motor in this pic? http://www.cerberotech.com/Fatbike/b9.PNG


Thanks a lot for the replies!

Yes.

There is not really enough information in this thread to help make a recommendation for you.

Are you wanting something to tinker with or something simple out of the box?
Why did you fail with the hub motor?
What weight are you?
What incline are the hills? are they sustained or just once in a while?
Are your commuting or recreationally riding?
What terrain?
What bike?
Where are you?
Have you ridden any other ebikes to be sure of what you want?
Do you care about noise?
Will your bike be legal or do you need to be discrete?
Do you actually need that much power? Have you tested on someone elses bike?

All of the questions above have nothing to do with price - you need to work out what you want first, then figure out how to make it affordable.

Do you realise the more power = ~more cost?
As power increases, so is likely your battery costs. Are they included in the kit and are they sufficient for the distance you want?
What batteries are you planning to use and why?
Can your bike handle the power and the weight?
Will you need to upgrade your brakes? How much will it cost?
Can you get away with less power? Will that allow you to buy better quality/lesser risk batteries?
How do you plan to assemble it? or are you buying ready made? If so, from who?

You'll find if you read other threads, an increased focus on initial price is usually a dead give away for someone who has not researched what they want first. As others have detailed, cheaper kits can come with needing to have more user input/fabrication work to make the kit more reliable. Have you got the facilities to do this?

I'd answer a few of the questions above before buying anything.

It's a lot cheaper if you can plan it out first and get the best bargains on everything!
 
Ok here we go.


-Are you wanting something to tinker with or something simple out of the box?
I am really happy to tinker and mod bits

-Why did you fail with the hub motor?
I failed with the rear wheel drive because the chain kept falling of the tiny 6t sprocket I had to use


-What weight are you?
Roughly 65kg

-What incline are the hills? are they sustained or just once in a while?
Id like it to be able to ride steep and sustained hills ( lose grip before power)

-Are your commuting or recreationally riding?
Both

-What terrain?
Off road singletrack + roads

-What bike?
Mongoose Teocali 150mm rear + front sus



-Where are you?
England

-Have you ridden any other ebikes to be sure of what you want?
Only my failed rear wheel direct drive



Do you care about noise?
-A bit, but it is not in any way an important factor


-Will your bike be legal or do you need to be discrete?
Will need to be discrete on roads



-Do you actually need that much power? Have you tested on someone elses bike?
I'm fairly sure I don't need 3kw, but it seems to be the same price as many lower powered kits from cyclone and others and it will ensure a reliable hill climbing bike.


-Do you realise the more power = ~more cost?
Yes I do however this 3000w by cyclone seems to be an exception, somewhat

-As power increases, so is likely your battery costs. Are they included in the kit and are they sufficient for the distance you want?
No they are not included

-What batteries are you planning to use and why?
I already have some 6s lipo's which I can put in series to make a 48v pack. Only lipo's because they are cheap, I will get something better in the future.

-Can your bike handle the power and the weight?
It can handle the weight, I hope the drivetrain can handle the power.

-Will you need to upgrade your brakes? How much will it cost?
They are Avid hydraulic's and are sufficiently powerful

-Can you get away with less power? Will that allow you to buy better quality/lesser risk batteries?
I don't really know this one, being not too heavy I would hope that a 750w kit could whizz up most hills without stressing the motor/esc

-How do you plan to assemble it? or are you buying ready made? If so, from who?
I will buy the kit and assemble/ install to the bike.


Price is a big factor and I thought I would have to sacrifice high power for this reason but after some more research it seems maybe not.


I hope this might give anyone an obvious idea on what is or isn't appropriate.

Thanks again!
 
Either would do, with your weight you should smash it. Both suit tinkering more.

I considered GNG ahead of Cyclone when I looked into it (and went Bafang in the end) but I can't remember why. I would be reading through build threads on both - as that's where peoples issues/benefits are likely to be documented.
 
I had earlier suggested the smaller Cyclone was powerful enough for most of us, but there is one key advantage to the 3000w motor. It is much quieter in the gearbox. On the smaller Cyclone, the gearbox makes a very annoying whiny noise. It may not bother you, but it does me. Here are a couple of youtube videos running the smaller Cyclone at different power levels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IziNh6Y5vNw
In the first video, he is running 1680w and it's loud and high pitched. Could be the mic is near the motor though, looking at the camera angle. This will exaggerate the whine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRDjbXTKSp4
In the second, he runs 500w, and it's not so bad. The mic is higher, so maybe not fair comparison, don't know. Sounds better.

The bigger one has a quieter gearbox, and it makes a huge difference to me. Here is a video of the Cyclone 3000w motor running with 72v power. Insanely fast, but notice that the motor sound is lower, more hum than whine. For this reason, I would now prefer the 3000w motor. The 3000s motor noise is more tolerable. The cost difference is negligible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkapfpGHPbU

I'm fairly sure both of these would suit me as far as power, but on reflection I prefer the quieter larger motor for sound. You would want to beef up the bottom barrel brackets if you run hellacious power.

As for the GNG, it's great for power. In my opinion, reliability of the belt drive is a concern. On GNG, The belt version wears out belts due to the severe reverse bend on the belt, needed for tensioning and for wrapping around the too small motor gear. Lighting rods fixed this, and retains the relatively low noise of a belt primary while being reliable. But since that is too costly for your budget, I suggest the chain drive GNG alternative. It's reliable, if noisy. How noisy? Not bad. Here are multiple videos.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gng+e+bike

I have a feeling these would all serve well in terms of power. Price is similar. I would choose the most reliable drive with acceptable motor noise.

With any of these, the power is so high that you must power down when shifting or you will damage your derailleur. There is a Shift Sensor gadget that is supposed to do this automatically, but I don't know if it's a product yet. Many commercial mid drives have shift sensors built in, such as the Bosch drives on the Currie Tech bikes. So it can be done. We need an aftermarket one that is real.
 
le15otl said:
Jonny, I would certainly get the 1680 over the 3000 if it were cheaper. If you use a high powered setup like yours, it is easy to use lower amps and 'limit the controller if you wanted to be more economical? I have a bike that's up to the job but for longer rides it was be nice to run on just 200?

Nice question, toady is my first ride with this:
3speed.jpg

It came with the kit but I never plugged in. Yesterday I removed the switch necessary for limit the engine power (goes well any three-way switch) and connected to the controller. Without building same external Ampere limiter it is the only way for manage the power, remember that Cyclone controller is not programmable.

With those switch you can set engine power to 30%,60% or 100%.
The ride became smoother on flat, I will check if there is some real energy savings in using this switch.

If you want to have long ride (more than 100km) you may consider to drastically lower the power and pedaling alongside the engine, or lugging a very big and heavy battery pack.

If long ride are important you may consider that Cyclone gear box has an insufficient reduction ratio 1:10 to synchronize the correct engine speed with the human pedaling cadence, at least on my kit. Maybe slowhand can say something about the 3000w motor.
With this drawback you can use engine at correct speed without pedaling or pedaling wasting energy running engine at lower speed. Both are not optimal for long ride.
On the other hand GNG kit, with external reduction, is able to align engine speed with pedaling speed at both optimum level.
 
lurkin, thanks for that it sounds like GNG with a chain would be the easier and possible more reliable one.

slowhands, is this the cyclone you have? or which one
http://www.turbobikekit.com/fast-cyclone-electric-bike-kit/cyclone-electric-bike-kit/cyclone-electric-bike-Kit-1680watt-36v-60volt-battery
This one is actually cheaper than the 3000w and seems to come with a battery pack too which I find very hard to believe for that price.

jonnydrive, that is a good switch, do you have a watt meter to test with? It's a shame the cyclone esc's can't be programmed. The fact that the 1680w also doesn't match pedalling speed is also slightly annoying but yes maybe with the 1800-3000 it has a different ratio. I am looking for some longer rides some times. What kind of range do you get with yours and with what battery?
 
I have a Watt Meter on the bateries, but the switch act at the controller level, so no way for me to check the switch with my watt meter

Ranges:
With 12 lipo cells @ 5000mah (44volt nominal) on flat and pedaling about 30km
with 16 lipo cells @ 10000mah (60volt nominal) on mountain about 2 hours and 1200 mt of drop at minimum gear, full speed and no pedaling.
 
jonnydrive said:
le15otl said:
.....
If long ride are important you may consider that Cyclone gear box has an insufficient reduction ratio 1:10 to synchronize the correct engine speed with the human pedaling cadence, at least on my kit. Maybe slowhand can say something about the 3000w motor.
With this drawback you can use engine at correct speed without pedaling or pedaling wasting energy running engine at lower speed. Both are not optimal for long ride.
On the other hand GNG kit, with external reduction, is able to align engine speed with pedaling speed at both optimum level.

Not exactly correct. The smaller Cyclone motor has a primary reduction of 9.33, secondary of about 3.15, (depending on choice of chainwheel -- motor sprocket is 14T and this typically drives a 44T chainwheel ). This results in a compound reduction of about 30. It is similar to the GNG in reduction from motor to wheel, good for electric drive.

So I hope that clarifies the ratios. It's not 10:1, it's about 30:1, which is the sweet spot.
 
le15otl said:
1200 meter climbed at full speed ?! That's very good. What is full speed on your lowest gear ?

On offroad streets is about 10-15 km/h, it depend by the slope. I use front 32t and rear 44t. With this gears, engine does not strain and run at optimum speed.
 
le15otl said:
lurkin, thanks for that it sounds like GNG with a chain would be the easier and possible more reliable one.

-----

jonnydrive, that is a good switch, do you have a watt meter to test with? It's a shame the cyclone esc's can't be programmed. The fact that the 1680w also doesn't match pedalling speed is also slightly annoying but yes maybe with the 1800-3000 it has a different ratio. I am looking for some longer rides some times. What kind of range do you get with yours and with what battery?


The switch only limit the maximum engine speed (that you never reach), I think that it acts limiting electric pulse to the engine. It is just a guess...
I did'n noticed a rage extension using this switch. In urban riding the the largest amount of electricity is used during acceleration (traffic light, stops, etc), if the switch act, as I supposed, only managing the maximum speed, there is no gain in urban drive.
 
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