My next e-bike build - BBSHD with hydraulic IGH

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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TorEddy   100 W

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My next e-bike build - BBSHD with hydraulic IGH

Post by TorEddy » Oct 06 2015 4:12pm

I'm starting off with the most recent picture of my build:

Image


My previous bike got stolen:-(
Image
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=49283



After my experience with this e-bike project, I started thinking of what I want from my next e-bike build.

Ideally I wold like something like this, but with more power. Somewhere between 1000-2000w would be sufficient.
Image

As bikes like this is way to expensive and tops out at 350w, I will try to make something similar but more powerful myself.

My experience with my LighteningRods GNG bike, is that it's powerful, but i think it's too much fuss with cogs and belts, twisting sheets, speed control throttle, diy lipo battery with no good charging solution, old school cycle analyst, short range, too heavy, etc. All in all, a not very user friendly and maintenance free e-bike.
My main concern was ease of charging and the speed control throttle. Having to twist the throttle to make the motor catch up with my pedaling cadence, made it poor for off-road use. It was too hard to match the power input from the motor with the power input from the pedals when needing that extra power in a wheelie.

If I could use an external controller on the bosh/yamaha mid-drives, and get it up to say 1000w of nominal power, that would be a sweet setup.
As I don't think the motor is up for that power levels, and I have not seen anybody try this (maybe it's just too expensive to experiment with), I think the new e-rad / Bafang BBSHD drive on a nice full-suspension bike is the way to go.
As I really enjoyed the pas of the bosh/yamaha drives, I would like something similar on my new setup, preferably with a thumb-throttle override.
With a removable 52 volt 14 ah battery and the BBSHD taking 30amps maybe up to 40amps, it should be plenty powerful (1500-2000w peak).
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/do ... h-charger/

My two biggest gripes with this setup would be, how to pedal assist the high rpm BBSHD, and how to implement a torque sensing PAS.

Image
With a frame like this, I think the battery would fit, but maybe the motor will be to low because of the bent downtube.

Well, these are just my thoughts for my next project, and the BBSHD is not even on the market yet.
If I knew the pedaling cadence vs motor rpm would match, and some kind of torque sensing PAS could be fitted, I think a setup like this would be perfect.

I anybody know of a nice frame to recommend, or a way to convert the BBS speed pas to torque pas, it would be much appreciated!

Tord
Last edited by TorEddy on Dec 04 2016 8:08am, edited 4 times in total.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Nobuo   10 kW

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by Nobuo » Oct 07 2015 3:38am

The frame is really impressive.

I would choose NCR18650B in the lunacycle pack, as you want to make up to 2C continuous discharging
* Lithium + Air = Fire * <-----> ** Lithium + Chemical-Additives + Air = ZERO Fire **
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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by Phife » Oct 07 2015 9:01am

I highly recommend the Giant brand Full suspension bikes. Most all have the 68mm BB and usually enough space in the frame for a bottle/dolphin battery pack like the one you listed.

Have a look at my build in my signature. I have a BBS02 and a GIant Reign with 6" of travel front and back and that battery. Its amazing, and awesome on the trails. Upgrading to the BBSHD when its out.
2008 Full Suspension Giant Reign 2 with 48v 750W BBS02. Click Here
2014 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR with Cyclone 3000w Mid Drive, 52V 20ah Backpack Battery. Click Here
2019 Hybrid SUV 27.5 with Bafang Ultra Motor, 48v 14ah Battery. Click Here

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by TorEddy » Oct 07 2015 3:38pm

Now thats a clean build Phife! Exactly what i would like.
I see in your thread that you don't have any trouble with the low hanging motor, and thats nice to know.
How do you feel about the speed controlled pas? Do you think it's working well, or do you mostly use the throttle?

E-bikes like yours and Keplers, I think is the ideal compromise between power, weight, maintenance, stealth and range.
A nice bike, maybe 27,5" wheels for better BB clearance and a motor/battery combo like this, might be the holy grail..
Image
Image


Kepler should start sellig custom e-bike batteries. What a piece of art!
Image
I really like the motor protection extended from the downtube. Makes it look more integrated.

I think this is the way to go:-)

Looks like this is gonna be as expensive as the Haibike... but with a lot more omph!
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by Phife » Oct 07 2015 4:43pm

I only use pas on the roads, I dont have E-brakes setup and the motor gets to hard to stop sometimes on the singletrack trails, if you have the motor cutoff e-brakes then its no problem. I set it to PAS0 and use the throttle only on the trails. Pas works fine on the roads with or without e-brake cutoffs.

27.5" would be a great setup, Im getting the BBSHD and a slimmer battery next year for this bike and giving the BBS02 to the wife for her bike.

Just to give you an idea of the cost, I got the bike used for $600, then the BBS02 and 48v battery was $900 + $120 shipping. Then I spend probably another $100 on tools, parts and the lights. So im only in for around $1700-1800, I'd say much cheaper than a Haibike. If you buy a new bike though, then yes, its almost the same price, but you get a more powerful motor and throttle. I dont think Haibikes have throttle.

That being said, If I could afford it, I'd buy a Haibike in a heartbeat!
2008 Full Suspension Giant Reign 2 with 48v 750W BBS02. Click Here
2014 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR with Cyclone 3000w Mid Drive, 52V 20ah Backpack Battery. Click Here
2019 Hybrid SUV 27.5 with Bafang Ultra Motor, 48v 14ah Battery. Click Here

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by TorEddy » Oct 08 2015 2:04pm

Maybe speed pas with brake cutoff will be OK after all...
You want a slimmer battery? But still with 1860 cells?

If the Haibikes weren't so crazy expensive, i would get one myself. Just look at this:
http://www.mtbcult.it/tecnica/anteprima ... elettrici/

I wish they made a 3 times more powerful one:-)
Somebody should make a powerful drop-in replacement motor with gearing for these bikes.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by TorEddy » Apr 03 2016 6:29am

After a seriously long bike hunt, i finally ordered a bike for my new project:
Image
http://nsbikes.com/soda-evo-air,1416,pl.htm

73mm threaded BB, so BBSHD install should be plug and play..

Bafang BBSHD 48V 1000W Mid Drive Kit
- Power/Current Setting 1000W, 30A
- Bottom Bracket Size 68/73mm (Standard)
- Low Voltage Cut 43V LVC for 50V (14S LI, 16S LFP)
- Chain Wheel 42T Bling Ring HD (Black)
- Throttle Type Left Thumb Throttle (TYP2)
- Ebrakes 1pc Sensor for Hydraulic Brakes
- GearSensor Without Gear Sensor
- Display Type C961 (50kmh Max)

After checking with Damian Renè, he thinks I should be able to fit a 14s5p 52v 17,5AH Sanyo GA cell, battery pack inside the frame.
I'm thinking of making a battery enclosure like the one two posts above, or maybe a carbon fiber battery box.

As the battery meter of the Bafang display is useless on 52v, and the speed/trip measurement is pretty inaccurate, there is really no point in having the Bafang display at all.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to want more than 1500-1600w of power, so I see an Adaptto mini-e coming my way after some time..
This Adaptto kit has some really nice features:
- Sine wave compact controller up to 4kw (2 - 2,5kw on the BBSHD not to destroy the nylon gear)
- A nice display with all the info you would ever want
- Integrated charger. You van charge the battery with whatever power source between 12v and the battery voltage.
- +++
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190

I'm thinking of placing the Adaptto controller right above the BBSHD, under the downtube, using the empty space of the BBSHD controller as a connector compartment. I will try to make some protection/adapter to the controller to make it look more integrated to the BBSHD.

Now i just have to wait for the bike so I can make some final measurements of the frame triangle, before i order the battery.
Sadly I will have to order the battery with a traditional BMS before i order the Adappto system with its BMS system. Guess I will have to change the BMS on the battery pack then.

I'm really looking forward to receive all the parts needed, so i can start the installation:-)

By the way... It was electricbike.com's article that made me believe in the BBSHD and finally pull the trigger:
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x- ... bike-ever/
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by Dogboy1200 » Apr 10 2016 12:32pm

TorEddy wrote:After a seriously long bike hunt, i finally ordered a bike for my new project:
Image
http://nsbikes.com/soda-evo-air,1416,pl.htm

73mm threaded BB, so BBSHD install should be plug and play..

Bafang BBSHD 48V 1000W Mid Drive Kit
- Power/Current Setting 1000W, 30A
- Bottom Bracket Size 68/73mm (Standard)
- Low Voltage Cut 43V LVC for 50V (14S LI, 16S LFP)
- Chain Wheel 42T Bling Ring HD (Black)
- Throttle Type Left Thumb Throttle (TYP2)
- Ebrakes 1pc Sensor for Hydraulic Brakes
- GearSensor Without Gear Sensor
- Display Type C961 (50kmh Max)

After checking with Damian Renè, he thinks I should be able to fit a 14s5p 52v 17,5AH Sanyo GA cell, battery pack inside the frame.
I'm thinking of making a battery enclosure like the one two posts above, or maybe a carbon fiber battery box.

As the battery meter of the Bafang display is useless on 52v, and the speed/trip measurement is pretty inaccurate, there is really no point in having the Bafang display at all.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to want more than 1500-1600w of power, so I see an Adaptto mini-e coming my way after some time..
This Adaptto kit has some really nice features:
- Sine wave compact controller up to 4kw (2 - 2,5kw on the BBSHD not to destroy the nylon gear)
- A nice display with all the info you would ever want
- Integrated charger. You van charge the battery with whatever power source between 12v and the battery voltage.
- +++
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190

I'm thinking of placing the Adaptto controller right above the BBSHD, under the downtube, using the empty space of the BBSHD controller as a connector compartment. I will try to make some protection/adapter to the controller to make it look more integrated to the BBSHD.

Now i just have to wait for the bike so I can make some final measurements of the frame triangle, before i order the battery.
Sadly I will have to order the battery with a traditional BMS before i order the Adappto system with its BMS system. Guess I will have to change the BMS on the battery pack then.

I'm really looking forward to receive all the parts needed, so i can start the installation:-)

By the way... It was electricbike.com's article that made me believe in the BBSHD and finally pull the trigger:
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x- ... bike-ever/
Love It! I'm looking to power up my BBSHD too. Word on the street is that Luna is working on a 40A Modded internal controller. I'm gonna try to hold out til that comes out.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

1KW   1 kW

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by 1KW » Apr 19 2016 1:49pm

Any update on the modded controller?

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build

Post by TorEddy » Aug 28 2016 1:03pm

This is how my bike looks with the BBSHD installed.
Pls.. no funny comments on my fabulous lipo setup.. It's 2 x 4s 5.5ah + 1 x 5s 4ah rc car lipos. It's the only battery i have that will make it alive..
For starters it was just to see the BBSHD move, but it has given me some trips.. a whopping 3ah range, and yes, the batteries do get a little warm..

Image

My original plan was to make a 14s5p battery pack inside the triangle, but due to the shock path, there is only room for 14s4p.
Just when i was ready to order the custom battery pack, i started thinking of a shark pack on the underside of the downtube...
Lower center of gravity, no custom battery housing, swappable with a second battery from my backpack, easy to remove when washing the bike, etc..
So i decided to buy a 14s4p shark pack with Sanyo GA cells... Turns out, a complete 52v shark/Hailong pack, is not so easy to source here in Europe.
Any suggestions to where i might find one would be highly appreciated!!!

Even though i only got 3Ah to play with, i must say i am very happy with this BBSHD kit from em3ev..
This is something completely different from the LR GNG kit i had earlier. So much smoother and tighter.. and so quiet.

Image

14s5p Battery pack
Image
Last edited by TorEddy on Nov 16 2016 2:24pm, edited 2 times in total.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Sep 03 2016 3:39am

While waiting for a 52v shark pack, i needed a temporary battery.
Sourced a temporary 48v bottle battery from the LBS for cheap. Cell: 18650 (13S5P) ISR18650-2600mAh(LiMn2O4) But it seems like it can manage 30A output.
I drained 9ah on my first test ride before the LVC started to kick in.
I'm now very happy with my ride, and the 9Ah lasted for 1,5 hours of offroad riding, a lot of climbing and hard riding.

Image
Last edited by TorEddy on Nov 16 2016 2:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Nov 05 2016 2:57am

I just received my 52v shark pack.
Unlike the Carbon Shark Pack and the Dolpin pack, this battery case has no power switch.
My previous build had a 'red plastic key' power switch, as this was the only one i could find meeting the specs needed for high voltage and current.
It seems the switches in the mentioned battery packs are much smaller and nicer, but are they really specked for this voltage and current?

As my BBSHD is off when turning on the switch, i'm not afraid of sparks, but the switch still needs to tolerate 30-40amps at 60volts.
Anybody have an idea where to find such a switch?
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by drew12345 » Nov 06 2016 7:38am

I don't see any of your pics for some reason. Anyone else? Might be permission issue.

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Nov 16 2016 11:51am

Some progress:

Image
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Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by TorEddy on Nov 16 2016 2:30pm, edited 2 times in total.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Nov 16 2016 11:52am

Need a battery switch and a watt meter:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84737
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by drew12345 » Nov 16 2016 11:53am

Very nice!

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 16 2016 12:39pm

Nice looking bike! first time ive seen the battery mounted on the bottom of the downtube, looks pretty good

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by Mündawg » Nov 27 2016 7:48pm

I like the build so far! What cells are in that shark pack? I have a Panasonic GA cell pack from Luna and under heavy load the Ah rating is much lower than one might expect. Since it's only a 4p each cell puts out close to 7A continuous. It really produces voltage sag and drains the battery much faster than i expected.

I see you might be having a 52V? That will probably mitigate much of these issues. :D
Please let me know how it handles with semi long steep hills.
I am just wandering around, wondering where everybody is...
Check out my first Build, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=84538

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TorEddy   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Nov 28 2016 4:55am

Thanks.. I'm pretty happy myself :D
first time ive seen the battery mounted on the bottom of the downtube, looks pretty good
Guess that's due to the frame of the bike. I don't think many bikes could pull that off successfully.. Most bikes like this, tend to have a curved downtube at the bottom towards the BB, making it hard to place both the motor and battery.
The Shark Pack is made in Sweden by http://www.envolt.se and contains the famous GA cells. And yes.. I hope running 52v will compensate for some of the voltage sag during heavy loads.
Maybe I'll run a 6s4p pack in series with the shark pack, together with an external sinewave controller inside the frame triangle. I guess a custom housing could hold both a Grin phaserunner and 24 extra GA cells. But that will eventually be some time in the future.

Right now my bike is @http://www.Kindernay.com, getting its new hydraulic hub gear..
Beeing able to switch gears during load and standstill, will be a hoot :lol:

Running a IGH, makes for a completely new rear wheel.
It's time for a 35mm carbon rim, tubeless setup with Plus size tyres.. 27.5"x2.8".
I'm soon to be a happy camper..
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by broke » Nov 29 2016 8:27pm

what did you use to get the hose clamp black?
I have a transition blindside with the same type of frame and I get the frame pulling to the drive side under heavy power do you get that with you frame?
kona stinky - adaptto - HT3525 - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1005754
bikes owned:
new build LR kit dirt bag frame adaptto - rohloff
kona stinky adaptto ht3525
optibike
gaint ac1 bmc motor
prodeco ex 2014 48v
prodeco pooper 24v
hill toper kit (first kit)
2 Sanyo ebikes from japan
2 cheap folding bikes with 36v settups

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by TorEddy » Nov 30 2016 3:06am

I used heat shrink tubing on the hose clamps. Looks stealthy and protects the frame.
I see your Transition looks very similar to my bike, and I also have the twisting of the rear frame triangle. I had that on my previous Commencal as well.
Seems to be pretty common on fullsuspension bikes.
Works great anyways, but I hope it doesn't wear out the linkage bearings og weaken the frame in any way.
If you hold the rear brake and apply throttle, the twisting does not look good, so i stopped doing it;-)
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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broke   100 W

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by broke » Nov 30 2016 12:20pm

I have found 4 bar linkage does not flex. frames I have used kona stinky. Dirtbag. V10.
Frames like the high bike.
kona stinky - adaptto - HT3525 - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1005754
bikes owned:
new build LR kit dirt bag frame adaptto - rohloff
kona stinky adaptto ht3525
optibike
gaint ac1 bmc motor
prodeco ex 2014 48v
prodeco pooper 24v
hill toper kit (first kit)
2 Sanyo ebikes from japan
2 cheap folding bikes with 36v settups

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by drew12345 » Nov 30 2016 3:54pm

Great idea with heat shrink!

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD

Post by Mündawg » Nov 30 2016 5:11pm

my 2 cents: The bike looks sweet, you may want to use a higher discharge pack tho. In my exp a 4p pack doesn't have enough umf with the BBSHD when using lower output cells. My Luna cycles Panasonic GA 4P pack has significant voltage sag when using full power for more than a few seconds. I believe this contributes to the lower than expected total milage i can achieve. when pulling 8+ amps from each parallel string of cells the Ah rating drops significantly.

I would love to have the same 48v 13s4p pack using 25r, HG2 or similar 15A+ cells. The side by side comparison would be interesting. The Ah rating for 18650 batteries is usually using 2A draw. A 30A BBSHD pulls about 7amps from each cell, so the actual Ah output is much much less than the rated 13.5Ah (3,400mAh per cell) for a 4P Panasonic GA pack.

if anyone wants to send me a 48v 4P pack with high discharge cells message me :mrgreen: :mrgreen: and i will do a thorough side by side test and will post the video results. :mrgreen:
I am just wandering around, wondering where everybody is...
Check out my first Build, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=84538

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Re: My next e-bike build - BBSHD with hydraulic IGH

Post by TorEddy » Dec 04 2016 8:06am

Just received the bike from it's hydraulic internal geared hub installation.
14 gears with full 30 gear mtb range, from http://www.kindernay.com

Image
Image
Image

Need to fix that throttle:-)
Last edited by TorEddy on Dec 19 2016 2:18pm, edited 3 times in total.
My 3rd Ride - LMX64 : :mrgreen:
My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
My 1st Ride - LR GNG Commencal : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... dy#p728668

http://www.tomaso.no

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