Mid-Drive Selections for Quality!!!

markz

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I found the MXUS mid-drive motor aka BTN (Back to Nature) - Its got me intrigued because I have the MXUS 3000W V2 D.D. motor.
MXUS Mid Drive
from
https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

From my searches here in E.S. some say its heavier/bulkier. Looking at the specs, it says 500W so 48V 10A but maybe you can push this motor like others.
I prefer the 1kw+ range, ideally 1500W or more! I just love more power, bike gear cant stand up to much more I know. I started thinking about mid-drives in this post here

Whats the breakdown then in terms of quality, I want to stay away from the RC motor stuff as its just not my thing.........yet.
But Im seriously looking for a hill climber for my 1994 Specialized Stump Jumper with 73mm BB, all steel 19" frame that I am building from ground up.

I basically took from that article, and put it in rough order.
I just want to make a list, from best to worst, 500W+, non-obscure mid-drives.

Lightning Rods
AFT
RC stuff taken out
EGO
ECO
MXUS
Bafang BBS02/BBHD
Cyclone basically the same as the GNG
 
Luna Cycle sell a BBSHD kit made for a 73mm BB although it may be too much for a MTB: http://electric-fatbike.com/2015/11/13/this-is-why-they-hate-us-bbshd-1000w-singletrack-testing/ AND http://electric-fatbike.com/2015/11/19/get-a-bigger-hammer-bbshdbbs02-installation-problems-fixes-for-non-standard-bb-intrusive-chainstays/

The first is a review of a BBSHD on a MTB and the second link is about 73mm and other BB sizes and sources.
 
Lightning Rods
AFT
RC stuff taken out
EGO
ECO
MXUS
Bafang BBS02/BBHD
Cyclone basically the same as the GNG

Not sure why you would have the LR above the AFT in terms of quality, for the LR the only thing different vs a standard GNG is the mount kit and reduction stage vs GNG. i.e the motor is stock standard and it doesn't even come with a controller as standard let alone a good quality Kelly controller or written instructions.

Whereas the AFT compared to the cyclone have ceramic bearings in the motor and gearbox, hardened steel gears, comes with a quality Kelly controller and quality wipperman chain as standard. I am pretty sure the AFT kit comes with written instructions as well, whereas the EGO kit uses the standard motor and controllers same as cyclone. Actually not sure now if cyclone uses the Kelly controllers any more.

ECO speed I have not seen many comments on these kits lately on here?
 
OK so to start putting it all in order.

From this.......
Lightning Rods
AFT
EGO
ECO
MXUS
Bafang BBS02/BBHD
Cyclone basically the same as the GNG

To this.......
Firm #1 - AFT - Instructions, Ceramic Bearings, Hardened Steel Gears, Kelly Controller, Whipperman Chain - 48v 1680w extreme kit $1300usd
There are AFT customers who are happy with their purchase, and from reading their posts, DO NOT get the internal controller, and DO get the cooling fins.
noisy primary reduction, and high price.
simpler install compared to the LR
reduction steel gears can take a ton of abuse

???Then Cyclone - basically the same as A.F.T. Kinda a cheesey website, dunno if its legit. Headline Motor.

Then L.R. - Better mount and better reduction, no controller, no instructions vs. GNG.
The GNG is almost identical to the LR small block motor. The stator on the LR is 10mm wider, so it has slightly more copper mass. The stock belt-primary GNG has the pulley cut out of the shaft material, so the pulley is not removable. The chain-primary GNG has a removable 8mm sprocket. The LR small-block motors all use a smooth 12mm diameter shaft, and he has 25mm wide pulleys in three sizes and also #219 chain sprockets of several sizes.
prototype problems
AFT kit like the EGO and GNG v1 are complete, finished ready to bolt on with the controllers included!
a lot bigger with heavier motor and heavy steel brackets
LR has the huge external belts and pulleys that look nothing like standard ebike parts and there is more risk to get something tangled in them
Whereas all those other kits have compact internal planetary gear reductions
If quiet operation is a high priority, this is the quietest of the three options
he only problem with its design is that it really does need chain/belt covers,
When using a recommended torque brace, there is no twisting as was mentioned by previous comments.
my small block LR is about 1.5x heavier than the gng. I'd imagine the big block to be 2x at least.

Then GNG - basically the same as L.R.

GNG
Lowest price of the listed options by far, and uses an awesome motor. If this is the only kit a builder could afford, I recommend using 36V X 25A = 900W, due to high Kv and too low of reduction (the motor can take more watts, the drive cannot). At 48V you cannot pedal with kit at top motor RPMs, and also: brackets are not as strong as LR kit, so if you use more than 36V X 25A, it flexes badly, and needs a torque strut (easily constructed, review the thread).

The belt system is weak with too small a drive pulley (tooth-skipping). Back-bending belt and high tooth-loading leads to short belt life. The chain primary is loud, but I recommend it for durability. If you are seriously considering the AFT, then primary reduction noise is an acceptable option for you, so get the GNG chain-primary or no GNG.

GnG -Experienced at 48v/1.5kw continuous/2.5kw peak
Other than always having to replace the belt every few hundred km, My old GnGv1.1 belt drive was bullet proof - however it took some mods to get it that way. The majority of noise was the secondary chain from jackshaft to chainwheel...significant noise reduction just by using a properly lubed, quality half-link chain.

The GnG was really easy to install for me on a hard tail with 68mm BB. It did not have any instructions and there are not options available to tailor the kit to any specific needs - you get what you get.

I dont know where i got this info from.................Im kinda confused on this. Maybe its L.R. = Cyclone = EGO with different brands having upgraded parts.
Then EGO = Cyclone - Ego has Standard Motor same as Cyclone and controller.
cyclone 48v 1680w with the kelly, and i am very happy with the power ! it peaks at 3000w,
EGO uses the Headline Motor.

Then - Bafang BBS02
or the new Bafang BBS-HD




Out of the running - ECO because not many comments.
Out of the running - RC stuff.

**** I will read my original post and try to narrow it down even further - Just did ****

Whats your say in it, am I close?
 
L. R's bulky and heavier design is both the plus and the miinus. aft's upgrades are meant to prolonged the lfe of the planetry gear which usually are the weak link as they won't stand much abuse, and is not off the shelf part.
Gng and , thus lr use a simpler design which is easier to change and upgrade.
And i have ecospeed.
 
So, Bafang is the worst of the bunch?
There are Pro's and Con's to each, but roughly for Quality and Reliability.......
#1 - AFT ~ Cyclone
Very close #2 - LR ~ GNG
#3? - EGO (Where does this fit into the lineup?)
Last - Bafang (BBS01 - BBS02 - ??BBSHD??)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70439#p1062926
spinningmagnets said:
For long and steep uphills, the BBS02 might not stand up to the heat, but for relatively flat terrain plus mild hills up to 30-MPH (45-kph) the BBS02 seems to have a lot of satisfied customers.


Remember its about quality, not price. Its easy to filter each out with price AND what it comes with, once it comes down to quality.
One comes with controller, other one doesnt.
Ones got a better chain, other is stock.
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
 
It all really depends on your priorities. I live in a metropolitan area that has a few local parks that have great MTB trials. The sole purpose of my e bike is to allow me to ride these near by trials at a higher rate of speed then peddling alone permits. The legality of doing this is ambiguous, so for me stealth is paramount. If it becomes an issue and I can't ride these trials then it doesn't really matter what mid drive I have cause it will be collecting dust in the garage. If I have to drive 3 hours to ride, I'll ride my KTM. To prevent that from happening I have a BBS02 on my bike now and my new BBSHD should arrive next week. In my opinion the Bafang is the most stealthy. It's silent and there is no obvious drive mechanism. I also run my battery in a back pack, avoid others on the trial and ride at off peak times. I'm pretty happy with the performance of the BBS02 and have hopes that the hd will be better and be able to be hot rodded to 40 amps in the future (I'm sure one of the smart guys on this forum will figure a way to do it). All that being said, if stealth were less of an issue for me I would go AFT or Tangent looks good to me too.
 
If you want something that is plug and play, an easy bolt-on, get a BBSHD. It's a simple, quiet mature product. I would say more, but it's a beautiful day in the low 80's and I'm going trail riding on my BBSHD Fat Bike.... PAS with a max speed of 28 w/assist and no throttle is trail legal in CA AFAIK, the Gov signed a bill into law a few weeks ago, so stealth is not needed.

Just remember to pass others grinding away uphill with courtesy and try not to have too big a grin! I am the only eBiker I have seen on my local trails so far. Most folks are friendly, but a few give me dirty looks and try to throw some shade, about the same number as ask me questions and seem positive.
 
So, Bafang is the worst of the bunch?
Pro's and Con's to each, but roughly.......
#1 - AFT ~ Cyclone
Very close #2 - LR ~ GNG

Remember its about quality, not price. Its easy to filter each out with price AND what it comes with, once it comes down to quality.

Since this thread is about quality then this means reliability, then yes Bafang should be last on the list going buy how common people have had controller failures and gearbox failures in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=58898&start=650

Weakness being plastic gears and internal controller.
 
The HD is a different animal from the 02. It's heavier with more copper and better parts in the controller than the 02, there is greater thermal headroom and the controller is able to handle a higher load. The plastic gear is still there so don't lug the motor down to stalling as a habit and keep petroleum grease off of it to keep it from softening. For the price and ease of installation the BBAHD is hard to beat.
 
Yes the new HD looks promising, it will take some time for it to prove itself and to determine exactly what the differences are

Yes it will take some time to prove itself but it still has a plastic gear as a primary and internal controller. So it will have the same failure modes, when it works it will be good but if it fails its very hard to repair the complex gearbox and or fix the internal controller. I.e its not meant to be serviceable and do lots of Km compared to the cyclone/AFT kits that have 3 planet gears that are easy to replace and an external controller. Also the weight of the BBHD is a LOT heavier then the BBS02 and AFT cyclone kits.
 
jk1 said:
So, Bafang is the worst of the bunch?
Pro's and Con's to each, but roughly.......
#1 - AFT ~ Cyclone
Very close #2 - LR ~ GNG

Remember its about quality, not price. Its easy to filter each out with price AND what it comes with, once it comes down to quality.

Since this thread is about quality then this means reliability, then yes Bafang should be last on the list going buy how common people have had controller failures and gearbox failures in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=58898&start=650

Weakness being plastic gears and internal controller.

Seriously? What percentage is that exactly? How many years- revisions have each of these systems gone through? Can not fairly compare a first run system with one that has had several revisions over many years of development. How many GNG 1 systems are 100% stock? It would be nice to know how many of each of these are in use, how long they have been made and what type of use they see. It is also of interest how many features /complexity each system has. With the BBS02, how many controller issues were self induced via programing errors.
 
Problems with early BBS02s or with later hotrodded versions have nothing to do with the BBSHD. The weak MOSFETs were replaced long ago and many problems with the plastic gear were due to lubrication with petroleum grease by well meaning but misguided owners. And how can you say that a product (BBS01/BBS02) that has been hacked to to give greater power, voiding the warranty, is inadequate? Has anyone had any problems with a BBSHD with stock programming here? Have there been any reports from anywhere of a BBSHD overheating with stock programming? And remember that a stock BBSHD gives 1000w all day long and bursts to 1500w: not too shabby for $800 from a U.S. Supplier and an easy 3hour install.

There is a reason that the HD weighs more than the 02 and is limited to 30 amps: it's designed to be bulletproof.
 
Lots of people asking about this again, figure I'd plop this out there for the "Search Feature" inept out there in the interweb land.

I did a lot of work on this list to figure out what I wanted buy at the time.

markz said:
So, Bafang is the worst of the bunch?
There are Pro's and Con's to each, but roughly for Quality and Reliability.......
#1 - AFT ~ Cyclone
Very close #2 - LR ~ GNG
#3? - EGO (Where does this fit into the lineup?)
Last - Bafang (BBS01 - BBS02 - ??BBSHD??)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70439#p1062926
spinningmagnets said:
For long and steep uphills, the BBS02 might not stand up to the heat, but for relatively flat terrain plus mild hills up to 30-MPH (45-kph) the BBS02 seems to have a lot of satisfied customers.


Remember its about quality, not price. Its easy to filter each out with price AND what it comes with, once it comes down to quality.
One comes with controller, other one doesnt.
Ones got a better chain, other is stock.
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
 
Lurkin said:
Tangent Mid drive would be my next choice.
RC Motor
https://www.electricbike.com/tangent-ascent/
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=70098
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/19/tangent-ascent-welcome-to-the-world-of-impossibly-light-electric-motocross/
 
At the time I was looking, I was not interested in rc motors at all, because I wanted silence and stealth.
I still do actually, but rc motors have their place no doubt about that.
 
Re: Mid-Drive Selections for Quality!!!
Unread postby markz » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:24 am

At the time I was looking, I was not interested in rc motors at all, because I wanted silence and stealth.
I still do actually, but rc motors have their place no doubt about that.

I feel the same and a lot of people do as well. Noise is not an option on a very high powered illegal mid drive around town.

I don't mind the new GNG 300w RC mid drive as even if it is noisy and attracts a lot of attention its still legal ! Nothing to see here... whereas those noisy RC kits like the tangent 3kw are asking for trouble, like i siren to everyone around -look at me this is an illegal high power ebike.. this is just asking for trouble in suburbia . hence why the BBSHD and Cyclone 3000w kits are so popular now, they are high power but still stealthy ...
 
markz said:
At the time I was looking, I was not interested in rc motors at all, because I wanted silence and stealth.
I still do actually, but rc motors have their place no doubt about that.

Apologies for derailing your thread.

If silence is what you want, I would be going down the Bafang route. Cheap, simple, silent. Easy to install, simple enough to get from Luna. Would be interested to hear of any guts on the outside designs which are quiet, with the power level you are looking for I would be pretty surprised if you can beat the Bafang units for noise.
 
Apologies for derailing your thread.

If silence is what you want, I would be going down the Bafang route. Cheap, simple, silent.

i think you missed the whole point if this thread, the title is quality and not cheap hence why Bafang is nearly last on the list... bafang has threads upon threads of problems due to cheap Chinese metal gear failures, cracking bearings and lack of grease controlelr failures etc.. the last thing i would call it is high quality but yes its cheap and quiet.
 
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