Inside a BBSHD New install

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 17 2016 12:02am

Well I did it. Regardless of issues with the BBS02 I had no problems with 2 BBS01 350W. Based on that experience and Bafang seemingly slow but eventual improvements I decided the BBSHD was the best upgrade for me. I've recovered enough from my strokes and enough help from the gang here I'm able to tackle it and any niggling details without some really stupid mistakes.

So first off I took the BBSHD, here after HD, to the bench to see what was what. I remember reading someone criticizing th HD saying it had a single bearing. That seemed impossible and improbable, and in reality untrue.

The HD is MUCH easy to work on and access bearings to lube. The pawls are easy access and the entire shaft assembly it easily removed. I panicked for a few seconds when the shaft, with pawls still in place, wouldn't drop back in, the the pawl easily pops of with a little gentle screwdriver action.

I took he opportunity to also add some lube to the two bearing that were much like those in the BBS0x. I forgot to measure for a direct comparison. Will we be so lucky to find they are the same? Sadly I can't confirm. Next one.

Overall I found the quality to be better visually than previous versions. A judgement perhaps I'm unqualified for but it sure seems a nicer build.

Overall I think it will prove to be a much easier unit to repair and work on. So far good job Bafang. Perhaps the lessons of the past were really brought to bear on the new builders, flagship Bafang, mid drive.

The bottom bracket tube is marked 68MM but significantly more thread protrudes from the bottom bracket. More pictures as the build continues

I'll have comments on the C965 which has far easier mounting brackets. I don't like the orientation and the bracket while easier to install with 3 less screws seems, well, cheap. But not a Bafang product. I wish it were oriented like the C961, having 4 of them has made me kind of partial. We'll see...

edits to correct useless spelling and grammar skills.
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YOCH 750W, BBSHD, BBS01
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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waynebergman   10 kW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by waynebergman » Jan 18 2016 10:05pm

Hey Tom thanks for the photos etc. The photo you show of the pawls -- I am assuming this is in effect the clutch. I am surprised that I don't really hear these pawls making a lot of sound coming out of my motor. My HD is so quiet I for some reason thought it would have a clutch like my mac gear reduction motors. I guess that these pawls would not really need replacing that often as the plastic gear issues will be the weak link leaving these pawls to survive for some time?

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 18 2016 11:35pm

Not to be sarcastic but where are all the failure reports? Sometimes I wish Karl hadn't shown the plastic gears. Doug at Cali eBikes and others that do repairs aren't reporting many failures. Mostly non users pointing to plastic gears as the weak point. Jeebus. Modern plastics are wondrous materials. Bruno hasn't seen them, Paul hasn't seen them. Where are they all? Mostly in the minds of non users, from my view.

I'm going to reach out 2 of the biggest sellers and two repair stations again just cuz I can. As a former Las Vegan I figure the odds are on my side. I'd bet a free brake sensor to anybodies dollar (20/1) you can't find 5.

If they were a problem they're a quick and dirty $20 repair. Maybe the gear is more expensive now. I think the only bugger is lubrication or contaminating the plastic gear with the wrong grease as Karl has surmised. OR just flat out abuse. I don't think these motors are the best choice for a beating on a single track, but even the way Karl hammers them they hold up with good maintenance practice. My 30MPH DD is boring by comparison. And regardless I really like the PAS. So does my wife.

I haven't pulled the gear on a BBSHD yet, maybe it's a pain, but if it's like the tear down on the non controller side, easy peasy.

Rant over.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Leebolectric   1 kW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 18 2016 11:56pm

Awesome post, great to see what's in there.
Is there a definitive "best grease" figured out yet?
I have read the tuning thread full of conflicting info form dozens of sources...hard to know what to trust.
I wanna pull the cover and pack it with some high quality grease...so what's best?
Something I can find at a AutoParts store?
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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 19 2016 12:15am

Reportedly lube info from Bafang. Now that I think about it I can't remember seeing a seal...Next one better pictures an a total tear down. I wish there was a schematic and parts breakdown. I'll keep looking.
https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/ ... s_Middrive
Disposable items required for servicing
Bafang has advised the following greases are applied during assembly to Bafang units:-
Bearing grease - Unical Lithium grease No 2. This grease is applied to the thrust and needle bearings contained in the BB.
Plastic gear grease - Unical Aviation Synthetic Grease AG-11. A white lithium grease is used between the motor shaft and the nylon helical gear.
Metal gear grease (Black)- HCF Lubrications Technology Co Ltd's MG - 2A grease. This is situated on the large reduction gear and the small metal transfer gear. This should be periodically replaced, given grit can get into this area and grind on these gears.
Metal gear grease (white) - Unical Polybear Grease BLD 227B. From correspondence issued by Bafang, it is unclear where this lubricant is used.
Bafang have acknowledged that these greases are unlikely to be available locally and have advised to use Shimano substitutes where possible.


I took Karl's lead and went for the Mobil aviation grease. I used Shimano grease on the bearings and shaft, and Mobil Aviation where you see the nasty black moly. A packed it ala Bruno's video. Bruno reports the HD holding up really well. One look at his fleet and he's a pretty reliable source.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 19 2016 1:23am

Plastic gear survey unscientific.

"2 out of hundreds..." Canadian distributor.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by WoodlandHills » Jan 19 2016 12:07pm

It's nice to hear that someone else likes the PAS too. Perhaps it depends upon how and where you ride, but I have not had the unpleasant experiences others have reported. I even like the way it continues the assist for a bit after I stop pedaling: it lets me cross rocky or rough areas by rising momentarily from the seat, stopping pedaling and having the drive still propel me over the obstacle. It may be that since I am geared very low I am not going fast enough in the tighter spots to get in trouble, but I haven't had the bike try to run me into anything yet!

My wife loves the PAS too, says its like having a Magic Hand pushing on the seat when you come to a hill... :D but this weekend I put a twist throttle on her bike and after a bit of confusion she stopped pedaling and rode it like an electric motorcycle! This was on the street where it's all legal, not in the park where it's PAS only.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 19 2016 12:34pm

I dumped the twist throttles after the wife was moving the bike up some stairs, forgot to turn the power off and twisted the throttle and dumped the bike.
All thumbs for me. I love my left thumb throttles. I think they are safer. YMMV
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by WoodlandHills » Jan 19 2016 1:12pm

Funny, I kept having the same problem with the thumbs. It stopped when I: 1. Switched to twist throttles and 2. Did my best to always turn off the power BEFORE dismounting from the bike and NEVER turn the bike on until I have mounted up. I still forget sometimes, but at least I can't bump the thumb lever accidentally! Too many years and miles on motorcycles to be comfortable with a thumb throttle I think. :wink: ditto with the front and rear brake levers!

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 19 2016 5:47pm

Yeah, you've become a ES contrarian, post haste. Congratulations.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by mushymelon » Jan 19 2016 6:25pm

I've had good results with SuperLube. With my bbs02 straight out of the gate I cleaned out all the grease and lubed everything inside with it. I run the kit pretty hard, more billy goat technical than long high speeds runs. I'm on my 3rd controller but the units still as quiet as it ever was. I service about every 700 km.
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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 19 2016 6:43pm

Looks like it may be alright with plastics...
http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/Su ... _Chart.pdf
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by sather » Jan 23 2016 9:02am

Thanks for the photos. Question: Did the BBSHD need to be greased? Was it dry like many BBS02 units?

BTW: I lost a plastic gear in a stock BBS02 with the old fets and a 32 tooth chainring. It looked like it melted. So far, I have done a lot of hard climbing with the BBSHD with no issues.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 23 2016 10:37am

You people with much more experience no doubt know what you're doing, but cracking a brand new unit to regrease it really rubs me the wrong way! Hard to believe the factory building these things is that clueless?! I think I'll split the difference on my BBS02 and check it after a few hundred miles, and then have some of the Super-Lube handy. I'm at less then 100 miles now, a lot considering it's the middle of winter in the mountains of Idaho :shock:

So, SHOULD I crack my new unit open and regrease it, is that really what others are doing?

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 23 2016 11:39am

I think the unit was sufficiently greased. I communicate with Bruno some and after watching his videos, reading Karl's stuff, having read nearly every post here, and owning 3 other BBSseries, I say GREASE. It's a half dozen or so screws. No big deal and gets you familiar with the process. Easy maintenance procedure that might be the mitigating factor for a significantly longer life.

Regardless of the sticker shock, it's still a budget priced mid drive that I can maintain. The only other mid drive that appeals to me is the LR, and I don't want that complexity, nor do I need that power level.

I pay $30,000 for a car and have to change oil and do routine maintenance. Every small engine I've ever bought needs an oil change after an hour or two of use. I don't see why greasing this mid drive should be disconcerting. I also touch up hall connections with ACF50, now that's probably overboard. I'm hoping I own an unpotted controller soon and I'll definitely ACF50 treat that.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 23 2016 11:41am

Grease is PREVENTATIVE maintenance.
A few minutes now...saves a few hours and dollars later.
I'll be doing this to all of my units within their first 100 miles.
One of mine definitely sounds less lubed...little extra vibration at full speed.
2015 Intense Tracer275 with Tangent Ascent inside triangle https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75045
2010 Turner 5Spot with BaffangHD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75569
2009 KHS Velvet 6" with BafangHD (see above thread^)
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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 23 2016 11:11pm

Anyone seen loosening of the crank, getting some movement, not loose cranks arms, shaft movement?
Also found some delrin spacers. Seem nice, as well as pictures of the new seals. Huge improvement! Better pictures coming.
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Delrin
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by Lurkin » Jan 25 2016 4:55pm

craneplaneguy wrote:You people with much more experience no doubt know what you're doing, but cracking a brand new unit to regrease it really rubs me the wrong way! Hard to believe the factory building these things is that clueless?! I think I'll split the difference on my BBS02 and check it after a few hundred miles, and then have some of the Super-Lube handy. I'm at less then 100 miles now, a lot considering it's the middle of winter in the mountains of Idaho :shock:

So, SHOULD I crack my new unit open and regrease it, is that really what others are doing?
Yes.

It's not a case of being clueless, its understanding these units are put together on a shoestring in China. Any cost saved is a dollar in Bafangs pocket. It's not an unusual attitude to have, just very short sighted. The goal is to get a working mid drive to a new client without a lot of consideration for longevity.

I imagine the number of warranty claims on BBSX units due to insufficient grease applied is likely to change Bafangs attitude over time, but it's never been clear whether the communication is actually being received and understood, that its directly the lack of grease causing their/our problems.

I'm aware that Paul of Em3ev has driven product improvements for Bafang, including being the pioneer of the MOSFET change which immediately improved their product. He paid for them and provided them to Bafang to apply, which still required pushing and shoving for them to get it to change.

From the outside, it looks like an obvious choice to improve, from their perspective, its another client buzzing about changes which are likely to cost money....

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 26 2016 7:39pm

WARNING!

The none drive side seal IS NOT the same as the BBS02 series, and not like the new seals either. It's twice as thing and has a spring imbedded that holds the seal on the shaft. Behind it is the needle bearing. It must be a press fit. The seal fits very tight. It's very easy to bugger the seal and have the spring pop out. As soon as my second unit arrives I'll post more. There have been rare reports of shaft movement. Spoke with Bruno he's also not sure about the adjustment for horizontal movement. He's traveling and hasn't torn down as far as I have.
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The BBSHD candidate
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by runnermj » Jan 26 2016 10:21pm

Tom, is that what happened to the motor that I had to return to Luna Cycles?

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 29 2016 8:38pm

runnermj wrote:Tom, is that what happened to the motor that I had to return to Luna Cycles?
I'm 99% certain it was the non drive side needle bearing not properly set in manufacturing. Bafang makes it hard by not providing any schematics or tech drawings. They get cloned anyway but I guess that just slows down the process.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 29 2016 8:41pm

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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by Lurkin » Jan 29 2016 9:01pm

I assume they are your andersons? (i.e. not done by Bafang) Nice.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 29 2016 9:07pm

Lurkin wrote:I assume they are your andersons? (i.e. not done by Bafang) Nice.
Nope Bafang's! 100% OEM controller. They are listening.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Inside a BBSHD New install

Post by tomjasz » Jan 29 2016 9:16pm

Got my Bafang "professional installation tool" as Lectric calls it today too. Nice! $56.95 delivered, well spent. Lectric BTW gets $150.59 for theirs delivered. OUCH! I did see they lowered the price of the $15 Dolphin base to $75. What a crazy market. No wonder businesses lose products.
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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