Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
User avatar
tangentdave
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 323
Joined: Jun 06, 2015 11:40 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by tangentdave » Mar 28, 2016 11:37 am

Haha, a fatbike catching up to a car. Fun video, jealous of those trails.

-dave
Peregrine DH/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Mar 28, 2016 4:04 pm

It was a slow, rocky, technical mess. Kinda tough with no suspension, but fun anyways. I probably won't be going back there anytime soon!

jcovaltine
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 03, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by jcovaltine » Apr 03, 2016 12:07 pm

Fastjohnny,

I'm ordering a tangent ascent mid drive as well. Starting to look at different battery options. I thought I read in your post that you are running a 58 volt pack. How is that working for you? I thought the speed controller is only rated for 50 volts. Also did you ever wish you went with with the bigger 3215 size motor since your setup is on a fat bike? Just trying to get this right the first time.

Jason

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 03, 2016 1:03 pm

jcovaltine wrote:Fastjohnny,

I'm ordering a tangent ascent mid drive as well. Starting to look at different battery options. I thought I read in your post that you are running a 58 volt pack. How is that working for you? I thought the speed controller is only rated for 50 volts. Also did you ever wish you went with with the bigger 3215 size motor since your setup is on a fat bike? Just trying to get this right the first time.

Jason
I'm using this pack
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/52 ... 20ah-pack/

Fully charged, these packs that are listed as 52V packs have a full charge of 58.8V, and they work perfectly. There are trade offs to consider when choosing a battery, and I was also considering a 25R High power battery. The PF battery I chose can sustain 70A, and the max the 3210 pulls is 60A, so under full power I get a ton of voltage sag (58V to 52V), and lose some max power. The high power 25R battery can handle 160A, so I'd imagine it has less voltage sag, but its bigger and heavier. The PF pack also starts to get warm when I hammer on it for a while, but not hot. I also wonder if I'm getting less than 20AH because I'm so close to the rated continuous amps, and batteries tend to have less capacity when you pull at higher current rates. I don't have the data to tell you for sure.

As far as my choice of kits, I'm happy with the 3210 on the fatbike. I geared it to be really torquey and slow (34 mph top speed) because I need the torque off road, and I don't need to be tempted to go above 34 mph on a bike with no suspension.
I've hit that speed off road a couple of times and its been sketchy AF. The 3210 has enough power for me to launch the bike in top gear (11 tooth) from a dead stop, and my 130 lb girlfriend can ride it around like that without switching gears all day. Do I wish it had more power? Of course, but I'm smart enough to know I would say that no matter how much power I have on tap. I've been known to add power adders to a 178HP GSXR. Let me say I haven't found a hill I haven't been able to conquer yet, except for one super steep hill covered in mud and ice where I couldn't keep a good grip.

My next build is going to be a 6-8" travel full suspension with a 3220. I'm gonna keep a close eye on Dave's new 3220/Alfine 8 FS build, and if he doesn't blow that Alfine up, I'm going to copy the frock out of him. I also need to build a BBS-HD build for the old lady. That's all the power she needs.

Were you looking for a straight answer from me?

The best advice I can give you is that if you are even considering the 3215 then suck it up and get it. I've worked in the car business for too many years, and I know that when people end up settling with their 2nd choice, we see them back sooner than later, and they take a bath on the original purchase.

jcovaltine
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 03, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by jcovaltine » Apr 03, 2016 2:17 pm

Fastjohnny,

Thanks for the follow up. Your feedback helped in regards to the battery. But when it comes to the motor. I'm still trying to decide what size motor to get. I sold cars for 6 years of my life and I know exactly what you mean. Since there is only a $100 difference between the motors I'm leaning towards the 3215. Buy cheap buy twice is what I would tell customers. But 34 mph on a fatbike is flying and I know that trails in my area I will never be able to come close to that speed.

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 04, 2016 8:03 am

What bike are you building on?

jcovaltine
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 03, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by jcovaltine » Apr 04, 2016 9:34 am

FastJohnny wrote:What bike are you building on?
I bought the Rhino by Fatback. I'm having the same problem you had in regards to the chainstay hitting the inner chainring. Dave and I have been going back and forth on what we can do. He has come up with using a smaller chainring. About 3-3/4" which should work. Now he is working making a mount for it.

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 04, 2016 9:59 am

jcovaltine wrote:I bought the Rhino by Fatback. I'm having the same problem you had in regards to the chainstay hitting the inner chainring. Dave and I have been going back and forth on what we can do. He has come up with using a smaller chainring. About 3-3/4" which should work. Now he is working making a mount for it.

That's a nice bike to build on. The chainstay issue was a huge pain in the ass. The problem is most fatbikes have a 100mm bottom bracket shell, but then the cups that screw into it stick out 15 mm or so and use a solid axle. When you go to a 100mm isis bottom bracket it pulls the chainring in close enough to hit the chainstay. A smaller chainring will fix the issue, but then you need to mate a 64mm chainring to a crank and freewheel somehow, and it reduces your overall torque.

I've put some thought into it, and if you could somehow get it to work with a solid axle crank, maybe one with those newer cinch systems. Someone smarter than me might be able to figure something out, and make stock spacing work.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/produc ... As4o8P8HAQ

jcovaltine
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 03, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by jcovaltine » Apr 04, 2016 10:32 am

FastJohnny wrote:
jcovaltine wrote:I bought the Rhino by Fatback. I'm having the same problem you had in regards to the chainstay hitting the inner chainring. Dave and I have been going back and forth on what we can do. He has come up with using a smaller chainring. About 3-3/4" which should work. Now he is working making a mount for it.

That's a nice bike to build on. The chainstay issue was a huge pain in the ass. The problem is most fatbikes have a 100mm bottom bracket shell, but then the cups that screw into it stick out 15 mm or so and use a solid axle. When you go to a 100mm isis bottom bracket it pulls the chainring in close enough to hit the chainstay. A smaller chainring will fix the issue, but then you need to mate a 64mm chainring to a crank and freewheel somehow, and it reduces your overall torque.

I've put some thought into it, and if you could somehow get it to work with a solid axle crank, maybe one with those newer cinch systems. Someone smarter than me might be able to figure something out, and make stock spacing work.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/produc ... As4o8P8HAQ
I asked Dave if the smaller chainring was going to affect the performance. He said it won't make a noticeable difference. I think he said 55:1 instead of 58:1 ratio. But that was another reason why I was considering the bigger motor (3215). Dave said mounting the 64mm chainring is do able and that's what he is working on now. The wide chainstays and inner chainring seem to be and issue for all electric fatbike builds. Dave will corner the market if he can make his kit work without having to mod the frame. I check my e-mail every hour. I can't wait for Dave to say he got to working. He has the cleanest kit around and once I read the reviews I was sold.

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 04, 2016 10:37 am

That's great news. I'm sure if anyone can make it happen, Dave can. I should mention I did end up upgrading the brakes from the stock Tektro Auriga's with 180/160 rotors. They did okay, but with all the weight and speed I wanted downhill brakes. Ended up going with Shimano Zee front and back, and IceTech 203 mm rotors. I should be able to get them on this week sometime, but with the weather I'm not sure when I'll be able to get out and ride.

jcovaltine
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Apr 03, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by jcovaltine » Apr 04, 2016 11:43 am

FastJohnny wrote:That's great news. I'm sure if anyone can make it happen, Dave can. I should mention I did end up upgrading the brakes from the stock Tektro Auriga's with 180/160 rotors. They did okay, but with all the weight and speed I wanted downhill brakes. Ended up going with Shimano Zee front and back, and IceTech 203 mm rotors. I should be able to get them on this week sometime, but with the weather I'm not sure when I'll be able to get out and ride.
My bike came with Sram Guide R brakes and 160/180 rotors. I will see how they hold up but I have a feeling I will need to upgraded them as well.

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 05, 2016 2:41 pm

I've used SRAM Guide brakes on a DH bike with 203 mm rotors. They had tons of stopping power, but the little barrel adjusters that adjust the lever position kept moving on their own, and after a few trips down the mountain I'd have to tighten them up. They were on a rental bike.

aCeMadMod
100 W
100 W
Posts: 152
Joined: Jul 14, 2012 1:58 pm
Location: Au top end Too hot for lipo burns

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 05, 2016 3:07 pm

get some 225mm hope rotors. then you know what stoping power is , may get some hope mono6 or moto brakes. too :D

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 05, 2016 5:36 pm

Those giant hope rotors are sweet. I think I'll be more than good with 203's on a fatbike, but I'll keep those in mind for future builds.

Everything Hope makes is super nice. Now I'm gonna go see what they have for hubs these days.
Edit - came back to link to this.. https://vimeo.com/150519284

Production of a $300 hub

Ham
100 W
100 W
Posts: 212
Joined: Feb 18, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by Ham » Apr 30, 2016 11:36 am

How's the Fattie going?

I am curious about two things:

What kind of mileage you are getting from your battery packs and what packs you run?

Also, have you noticed any frame flex from the torque?

I ask these as I assume the lower pressure, fat tyres, eat up more battery than a standard 2" tyre and my Tangent kit looks to twist the rear triangle of my full suspension stumpjumper....
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Apr 30, 2016 4:08 pm

HamsFitness wrote:How's the Fattie going?

I am curious about two things:

What kind of mileage you are getting from your battery packs and what packs you run?

Also, have you noticed any frame flex from the torque?

I ask these as I assume the lower pressure, fat tyres, eat up more battery than a standard 2" tyre and my Tangent kit looks to twist the rear triangle of my full suspension stumpjumper....

In the woods running 7-8 PSI I manage to get almost exactly 1AH per mile, this is because I rarely get long opportunities to pull over 3000W on singletrack, most of the time I'm in the 500-1800W range. On the road running 20 psi, maxed out at 34 mph (gearing limited) I'm pulling close to 1.3AH per mile. This is on a 14s7P 18650PF triangle pack from Luna. 52V 20AH.

What type of mileage are you getting on yours?

No frame flex at, and surprisingly since I bashed one of the rear chain stays pretty good. The whole frame is cro-molly steel, so that helps. My main issue right now is the giant front brakes I added pulling the front axle out of the dropout on one side. Just enough for the brake to start rubbing and make me reset the wheel in the fork. If I get really annoyed I'll look into a thru axle fork and hub for the front.

I've heard of mid drives twisting up FS bikes pretty good. How bad is it?

Ham
100 W
100 W
Posts: 212
Joined: Feb 18, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by Ham » Apr 30, 2016 8:03 pm

Well that sounds pretty good. I've not managed to run my pack down to flat yet as i keep recharging to full for the weekend rides.

I ride about 4k per day on 2s2p lipo pack and so far charge on sunday morning. I'm guessing about 30 ish miles hard throttle only riding in mud and steep long hills.

I only feel frame flex or tyre twist in higher gears at 30+mph but if i pull off in 4th gear or higher i see the derailleur shift about a good 2cm if i keep my eyes on it.

Also depends what i have my A gain set to. The higher means more flex! 3220 kit at 200 agsin means bendy frame time!
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

cheekybloke
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 344
Joined: Mar 01, 2013 11:54 am
Location: sheffield u.k

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by cheekybloke » May 01, 2016 6:17 am

FastJohnny wrote:
jcovaltine wrote:I bought the Rhino by Fatback. I'm having the same problem you had in regards to the chainstay hitting the inner chainring. Dave and I have been going back and forth on what we can do. He has come up with using a smaller chainring. About 3-3/4" which should work. Now he is working making a mount for it.

That's a nice bike to build on. The chainstay issue was a huge pain in the ass. The problem is most fatbikes have a 100mm bottom bracket shell, but then the cups that screw into it stick out 15 mm or so and use a solid axle. When you go to a 100mm isis bottom bracket it pulls the chainring in close enough to hit the chainstay. A smaller chainring will fix the issue, but then you need to mate a 64mm chainring to a crank and freewheel somehow, and it reduces your overall torque.

I've put some thought into it, and if you could somehow get it to work with a solid axle crank, maybe one with those newer cinch systems. Someone smarter than me might be able to figure something out, and make stock spacing work.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/produc ... As4o8P8HAQ

Cyclone has just released some 178mm isis bb.
they are doing 100mm 110mm and 120mm shells.
this should cure the clearance issues you are having to some extent.
Darren

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » May 01, 2016 8:21 am

HamsFitness wrote: Also depends what i have my A gain set to. The higher means more flex! 3220 kit at 200 agsin means bendy frame time!
Hmm I need to play around with AGain more. I have mine set to 65. How many amps does the 3220 pull?

Ham
100 W
100 W
Posts: 212
Joined: Feb 18, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by Ham » May 01, 2016 11:56 am

The most I've seen is about 115, maybe 120 recently but that seems to be rare....not sure what I'd need to do to it to get it above that as I've ridden some hefty muddy hills to test it :)

I am mulling over the idea of an internally geared hub on mine but deciding which one is proving tough or even if it is of benefit.

I know another Tangent build has a Rohloff in play but can't remember who.
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » May 01, 2016 12:52 pm

HamsFitness wrote:The most I've seen is about 115, maybe 120 recently but that seems to be rare....not sure what I'd need to do to it to get it above that as I've ridden some hefty muddy hills to test it :)

I am mulling over the idea of an internally geared hub on mine but deciding which one is proving tough or even if it is of benefit.

I know another Tangent build has a Rohloff in play but can't remember who.

Very sweet, the only time I'm able to max out amps is when I intentionally go a gear or two too high so I can skip a shift. I was looking at the Rohloff 500/14 XL myself.
http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/33 ... oCR_Pw_wcB

It's a 14 speed hub with 170 mm fat bike spacing. Absolutely gorgeous, but a little mismatched to the fat bike build at $1500, and I couldnt find specs for maximum torque anywhere which make it an expensive and risky proposition. I ended up double shifting through the first 7 gears (1-3-5-7-8-9-10) under full throttle anyways, so 14 is just overkill.

Ham
100 W
100 W
Posts: 212
Joined: Feb 18, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by Ham » May 01, 2016 4:22 pm

The rohloff sounds great but I'd had the same issue of cost being too great just see if it may work. I'd heard of either 250 or 350nm max input torque...should work as it's rated for tandem use.

Love the thought of a vboxx bike but also unsure if it is possible to hook a mid drive up to one of them...i need to see in the flesh to understand!
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

User avatar
tangentdave
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 323
Joined: Jun 06, 2015 11:40 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by tangentdave » May 01, 2016 10:53 pm

QR axles, the skewer type, aren't as stout as a through axle and can allow some flex in the rear triangle depending on frame design. For instance an Intense Tracer 29er, which is a great frame, will flex with a Rohloff (QR axle) while a Banshee Phantom 29er with the same hub is fine. Hardtails would probably hold more chain pull than a frame with a pivot or two.
Peregrine DH/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

Bullyveldt
1 µW
1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Feb 06, 2018 10:37 am

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by Bullyveldt » Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Love it!!!

I built my 2015 cooker charge not knowing someone else built one until after the fact. I made mine with a bbshd in the 120mm flavour from em3ev. Great kit and wicked fun!

I also have the luna lander fat bike fork which is awesome, easy to install, and makes for a nice cushy ride. It does bring the front up a bit but I like the extra squish. :D
BBSHD maxi.jpg

FastJohnny
10 W
10 W
Posts: 97
Joined: Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Re: Tangent Ascent Charge Cooker Maxi 2.0

Post by FastJohnny » Feb 07, 2018 10:52 am

That’s a cool build. I like the Luna lander fork on the front. Raising the front end makes pedaling more efficient but lifting the front wheel is easier. Not a bad trade off for an ebike. At 30 mph speeds and rough terrain my bike begged for front suspension. The ended up swapping the motor to a hard tail 29er and when I did noticed a huge crack on the chain stay. The crack was caused by my modification but it was the end of that frame.

Post Reply