Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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joostj   100 W

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Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 5:12pm

My tangent build is almost completed. I've had several successful rides this week. I'm extremely happy with the kit and would recommend to anyone in the market for a true off-road performance package.

FYI. Pics were taken fresh off a ride, hence the dirt.
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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 5:15pm

Dave has been extremely helpful. Customer service second to none!!
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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 5:22pm

Build details:

Niner WFO frame. Custom brackets made to work around the unique Niner rear suspension linkage.

Astro 3215 motor: I weigh 220 lbs and didn't want lack of power to be an issue.

Luna Cycle 18650 25r battery pack...20 amp hour. Last ride got 32 watts/km average hitting it hard the whole time.

Gearing: 22t at the motor...30t at the crank and 36t crank... to 15-40t cassette.
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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 5:30pm

Highlights;

-Super light weight!!
-Very Balanced.
-Sturdy...no detectable flex in the system.
-Awesome torque...I have amps maxed out to 99 in the controller. No hill I haven't been able to tackle so far.

Improvements I will do to bike:

-Brakes no longer cut it with the increased speed and weight. Ordered 203 rotors to replace the 160mm on there now.
-Still geared to low. 36t will be replaced with 38t. I never use the last two big cassette rings and find myself on the bottom three small rings to often. Top speed now 51 kph. the 38t should get me another 5-8 kph.
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Leebolectric   1 kW

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by Leebolectric » Feb 04 2016 5:38pm

GOLD!
Sick as frock, I love it!
2015 Intense Tracer275 with Tangent Ascent inside triangle https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75045
2010 Turner 5Spot with BaffangHD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75569
2009 KHS Velvet 6" with BafangHD (see above thread^)
2015 SantaCruz Bantam with TEMPORARY Cyclone https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=76131

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 5:40pm

The future for Tangent.

Some things I would like to see going forward;

1. Swap out the 40:1 reduction for a 20:1 or 15:1 for even a 10:1. It seems crazy to reduce 40:1.....and then gear back up to run the rear wheel.
I see two versions in the future. One for those who want to pedal along, and one for those who want the best efficiency.

The noise of the system does not bother me, but hopefully less reduction would also result in a bit less noise.

2. A controller that is capable of higher voltage pack. I am running a 52v right now which is about max. A 72v would allow more rpm range in each gear resulting in less need to shift gears.

Overall I am extremely satisfied! The fun factor is way up there. It is not as fast as my NYX hub build, but once the trails get steep and interesting, the hub just wont cut it.

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by jk1 » Feb 04 2016 8:43pm

1. Swap out the 40:1 reduction for a 20:1 or 15:1 for even a 10:1. It seems crazy to reduce 40:1.....and then gear back up to run the rear wheel.
I see two versions in the future. One for those who want to pedal along, and one for those who want the best efficiency.

The noise of the system does not bother me, but hopefully less reduction would also result in a bit less noise.

2. A controller that is capable of higher voltage pack. I am running a 52v right now which is about max.
What you are asking for is pretty much what the 1680w cyclone type kits do, have a higher crank RPM and hence higher top speed- but they have a bigger motor to handle that extra load...

I agree the gear down so much to match peddle cadence is a strange requirement on a very high power kit like this. it make sense on a low power kit as peddling makes a big % difference to the total power. Whereas on a 2 or 3kw capable kit peddling makes very little if any difference % wise to the speed and acceleration and efficiency just because its a so small percentage of the total power.

So it doesn't make sense to do this because this comes at the expense of also severely limiting the top speed of the bike which you are tyring to increase, since with a 80-100rpm cadence you can only get so much wheel speed on standard bike gear counts, hence you have to have a higher cadence to get higher top speed on bike parts.

Also one other reason you might find with the tangent kit to gear down is not necessarily just for that reason but more to do with NOT thermally overloading the motor. The higher the top speed the bike can do the higher the load will be on the motor and ESC . It's a very small and light motor and has a lot less thermal mass than the cyclone 1680w type kits, so it won't like having so much load on it at less RPM with less gear reduction if the higher top speeds. Motors like to spun at high RPM as it helps efficiency and cooling .

You would be better off leaving it as it is or getting a bigger heavier Astro motor but then it would probably be cheaper to just switching to on of those 48v1680w cyclone type kits as that's exactly what you are asking for with a higher peddling cadence and higher top speed and their bigger 900 gram heavier motor will better handle the load.

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 04 2016 10:32pm

What you are asking for is pretty much what the 1680w cyclone type kits do, have a higher crank RPM and hence higher top speed- but they have a bigger motor to handle that extra load...

I agree the gear down so much to match peddle cadence is a strange requirement on a very high power kit like this. it make sense on a low power kit as peddling makes a big % difference to the total power. Whereas on a 2 or 3kw capable kit peddling makes very little if any difference % wise to the speed and acceleration and efficiency just because its a so small percentage of the total power.

So it doesn't make sense to do this because this comes at the expense of also severely limiting the top speed of the bike which you are tyring to increase, since with a 80-100rpm cadence you can only get so much wheel speed on standard bike gear counts, hence you have to have a higher cadence to get higher top speed on bike parts.

Also one other reason you might find with the tangent kit to gear down is not necessarily just for that reason but more to do with NOT thermally overloading the motor. The higher the top speed the bike can do the higher the load will be on the motor and ESC . It's a very small and light motor and has a lot less thermal mass than the cyclone 1680w type kits, so it won't like having so much load on it at less RPM with less gear reduction if the higher top speeds. Motors like to spun at high RPM as it helps efficiency and cooling .

You would be better off leaving it as it is or getting a bigger heavier Astro motor but then it would probably be cheaper to just switching to on of those 48v1680w cyclone type kits as that's exactly what you are asking for with a higher peddling cadence and higher top speed and their bigger 900 gram heavier motor will better handle the load.
A lot of good points.

FYI, I did go with the slightly heavier Astro 3215 instead of the 3210. Also increased the size of the esc to one capable of 100amp.

I agree that a different kit would give some of the results I am looking for, but it's at the expense of significant weight.

My other build is a mid-drive LMX that is partially complete. This one is as simple as it gets for a mid-drive...chain from motor straight to rear sprocket. No freewheels single speed. No pedals.......but twice the total weight.


I have been told the astro motors can tolerate up to 400 deg, so not to worried about the over heating thing like I am with the hub motors.

This would be my ideal:

20:1 reduction = about 500rpm at the motor.
18t to 36t motor to crank. 2:1 reduction = 250 rpm.
Then a 30t crank to the cassette 40t to15t.

This would give me a range that's plenty low for climbing up to 500rpm at the rear wheel.

It's no different (rear wheel), than I have now but seems more efficient to 'not' reduce it down to pedaling speed at the crank....and possibly a bit less noise.

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by FastJohnny » Feb 05 2016 10:19am

Very sweet... Subscribed

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by Warren » Feb 05 2016 1:26pm

I'd be concerned, with this kit using a sensorless controller, having too ( numerically) low a primary reduction. At 40:1, even if you start in your highest gear, the motor will be spinning up to pretty good speed with no load, making the sensorless synchronization easier. 20:1 might still be just fine, but I don't know.

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 05 2016 8:26pm

I'd be concerned, with this kit using a sensorless controller, having too ( numerically) low a primary reduction. At 40:1, even if you start in your highest gear, the motor will be spinning up to pretty good speed with no load, making the sensorless synchronization easier. 20:1 might still be just fine, but I don't know.
We will find out real soon. Dave is going to hook me up with a 20:1 reduction prototype to test. I'm expecting great results. Stay tuned.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by macribs » Feb 06 2016 8:33pm

How is the drive holding up to your 3215? Seems you have I real nice setup there.

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 07 2016 1:21am

How is the drive holding up to your 3215? Seems you have I real nice setup there.
So far so good. Bike is on the rack now waiting on some upgrades:

-203mm rotors front and back
-13t for the cassette. converting 40t-15t 9speed to 40t-13t 10 speed.
- 38t narrow/wide for the crank

In the next week or two, I should get the 20:1 reduction unit as well and play with the gearing some more.

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 22 2016 8:57pm

Took the 20:1 reduction unit on it's first ride today. I don't have the gearing dialed in perfect yet, but here are my first impressions.

-10-20% more usable power.
-less shifting of gears. There were big portions of the ride where stayed in one gear.
-20-30% reduction in noise. Plus a better tone to the sound.
-Suddenly a huge desire to try a 3220.

Today I tired a 16t at the motor and a 32t/32t crank and 15t-40t cassette. Hit speeds of 60 kph easily.

Will re-evaluate once I swap the cassette to 13t-40t, then maybe do a 32t/30t at the crank. I'm building a Santa Cruz v10 which will be the final destination for this kit.

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by aCeMadMod » Feb 22 2016 11:55pm

hi i can tell what 3220 and 20.1 will be like very soon i am get a new gearbox from dave :o

and to see what the new freewheel mech will be ez to use for changeing freewheels i hope

i just hope the lower 20.1 will not blow up my esc , i have 160 amp esc

You don't you use mid drive with any V10 frame you asking it to Cost you alot of money.. or you in hospital room, :shock:


thank you

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by macribs » Feb 23 2016 3:52am

Very cool. Now you got both climbing abilities and more top end with less gear changes.
A 3220 is just what the doctor ordered :twisted:

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Feb 23 2016 10:43am

hi i can tell what 3220 and 20.1 will be like very soon i am get a new gearbox from dave :o

and to see what the new freewheel mech will be ez to use for changeing freewheels i hope

i just hope the lower 20.1 will not blow up my esc , i have 160 amp esc

You don't you use mid drive with any V10 frame you asking it to Cost you alot of money.. or you in hospital room, :shock:
I'm running a 120hv without issues, so I doubt you will have a problem with the hv160. I acquired (cheap) the new talon hv120...according to the rc community it runs cooler and also has a plug&play fan option. Now I got to talk Dave into making me yet another bracket set for the v10/talon/3220 combo.

It's an obsession....

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by macribs » Feb 23 2016 12:24pm

I think Matt uses Hv 160 in combination with 3220. IIrc Matt claimed 14 kw output with that combo.
14 kw for very short bursts, like a couple of seconds. And 8 kw for 10+ seconds bursts. According to him hi maxed out max speed within seconds.
So if you do experience ESC going up in smoke maybe Hv 160 will last.

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Re: Tangent Build...Santa Cruz v10...3220

Post by joostj » Mar 03 2016 2:45am

I'm changing the title to my build. The niner will end up going to my brother...the kit will be upgraded and go on my freshly built v10.

-Astro 3220
-Talon HV120
-New battery pack 14s 8p Samsung 30q with dual BMS. 100amp continuous 160amp peak.

Still on the wish list....
-XTR Di2 electric shifter/derailleur
-38mm wide carbon rims with hope pro v2 hubs...3.0 wide 26" tires

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by FastJohnny » Mar 04 2016 10:00am

Sounds like a sick build. Keep us posted.

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Apr 16 2016 7:49pm

Update to the ride.

Frame is now a v10. 3220 motor. 20:1 reduction drive. Talon controller.

I took my first real ride today..Initial thoughts;

-the most quiet setup to date, even more than the 20:1 with 3215 combo...likely since I'm running at lower motor rpm.

-increased torque. This really helps with ride-ability(not sure if that's a real word). I can stay in a gear much longer.

***tip of the day***
zip-tie your cassette to the spokes. Sounds like I've lost my mind, but it allows you to shift without pedaling...all you need is forward movement.

In the quest for the ideal ebike, this one is it.
No more tweaking for a while. My brother is taking over the niner project and we should have that one back on the trail next week with the 3215/20:1.
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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by macribs » Apr 17 2016 1:15pm

Looking mean and ready for fun!
Hope you make some video for us to enjoy your new ride and hi powered Tangent. Would love to see a walk around where you zoom in on the drive/ESC and your zip ties ;)

Btw what is that ESC you are using? Easy to program? Max peak A?

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joostj   100 W

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Apr 18 2016 12:23am

Thanks for the comments Macribs.

One of these days I will take some video.
The ESC is just a newer castle creations, similar to the hv Dave uses. They only make a 120amp max version of the Talon, but it looks like it dissipates heat better. All the programing is done in the CA. Email Dave for all of the settings. Without his help there is no way I would ever get this motor turning.
He also built me some new brackets that allow the bracket to act as a heat sink by using thermal adhesive to attach the ESC.
I blew up my castle creations edge 120hv..likely due to overheating, so I am more aware of that potential issue now. I also think the talon looks better on the bike...

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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 18 2016 5:38am

when the frame cracks. can you show me the a few pics or what happen to you , i did waring you, this a bad combo. good lucky on burning money on bearing and chians. , and rear swing poping out, unless you use it for a shoping bikeing, and not use on a real downhill track, you going to feel the pian, good lucky dude, :o
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Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by millzy555 » Apr 18 2016 5:42am

aCeMadMod wrote:when the frame cracks. can you show me the a few pics or what happen to you , i did waring you, this a bad combo. good lucky on burning money on bearing and chians. , and rear swing poping out, unless you use it for a shoping bikeing, and not a No a real downhill track, you going to feel the pian, good lucky dude, :o
Trying to decipher that post...but i think i get the point...What makes you say it will crack?, Any evidence from your own experience?

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