Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
aCeMadMod   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 398
Joined: Jul 14 2012 1:58pm
Location: Au top end Too hot for lipo burns

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 18 2016 5:43am

i own this frame,.. i never use for a ebike . too weak.

User avatar
millzy555   100 W

100 W
Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 14 2011 9:48pm
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by millzy555 » Apr 18 2016 5:48am

aCeMadMod wrote:i own this frame,.. i never use for a ebike . too weak.
Did you have a mid drive like this? or DD hub, jumping it off everything??

aCeMadMod   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 398
Joined: Jul 14 2012 1:58pm
Location: Au top end Too hot for lipo burns

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by aCeMadMod » Apr 18 2016 5:53am

hi yes i have crack this frame,,, i own alot mid drive bikes . and work in a bike shop, and seen alot crack things, never own a hub motor, too cheap. and ez too setup save you money, :shock:

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Apr 18 2016 9:37am

when the frame cracks. can you show me the a few pics or what happen to you , i did waring you, this a bad combo. good lucky on burning money on bearing and chians. , and rear swing poping out, unless you use it for a shoping bikeing, and not use on a real downhill track, you going to feel the pian, good lucky dude, :o
I've tried to ignore you, but you keep coming back.

I've seen some heavy ebike kits (both mid drive and hub drive) installed on some very questionable frames here on the forum....

So it seems strange to me that you would obsessively warn me about one of the lightest mid-drives on the market, built onto one of the most tested and abused downhill frames of recent time. Santa Cruz does extensive testing on all of their carbon frames. Even one video of a guy trying unsuccessfully to break a V10 carbon frame by smashing it against a huge concrete block.

I've also searched the net for all these examples of V10 carbon frame failures...guess what... I only found one pic, with no back story to go with it. I will even attach it. This might also be a rear shock failure (who knows).

I fully believe that this is one of the beefiest combinations you can build, without going to a purpose built e-bike frame.

I welcome you to post pics of all of your broken frame V10's here.
Attachments
pbpic2297508.jpg
pbpic2297508.jpg (126.42 KiB) Viewed 3222 times

User avatar
macribs   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3692
Joined: Jul 22 2014 5:59pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by macribs » Apr 18 2016 10:41am

Maybe he was referring to the frame you pictured in post 1? Seems he worried about frame failure before you posted that Santa Cruz v10.
Just a thought.

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Apr 21 2016 2:33pm

Sound comparison.

This one is the Tangent 20:1 with 3215 motor.

https://youtu.be/gpem9cqgOms
Last edited by joostj on Apr 21 2016 2:42pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » Apr 21 2016 2:36pm

Now with the 3220. Definitely a cleaner sound. Mic next to throttle.

https://youtu.be/qduH-fYosDg

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » May 04 2016 9:00pm

My chain tension-er failed on my second ride. Likely due to the 3220 motor and the high rpm 20:1. It spins the chain quite a bit faster than my old setup. I'm experiment with alternatives. Currently I am using a derailleur wheel. So far so good but it doesn't inspire much confidence.

Next is this wheel from DMR bikes. A bit pricey, but it takes thing to a whole new level. The guides are thick and deep. The material is the right combination of soft and bulletproof. Plus the red looks awesome.

It's going on the bike today, and I will report back after putting it through sufficient abuse.
Attachments
File_000 (1).jpeg
File_000 (1).jpeg (79.02 KiB) Viewed 3038 times

User avatar
tangentdave   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 06 2015 11:40am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by tangentdave » May 04 2016 11:04pm

Man, chain tensioners suck. I didn't find this until right now, guess I was on the right track.

Image
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/e ... -prod82808

Both types of rollers work fine, the first rollers I used were solid. In an effort reduce slack and extend the life of the crank sprocket I'm still going to push for some sort of chain preload from the roller.


-dave
GGMT/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » May 26 2016 9:09am

Dave,
I think that's the one. It looks like it will hold the chain closer to the bracket. The red one is great, but I am not happy that the chain alignment is a bit off.

User avatar
tangentdave   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 06 2015 11:40am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by tangentdave » May 26 2016 2:52pm

Are you noticing any chain slap with the roller? This guy's review on that TRS roller aren't spectacular

Image
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/e ... -prod82808

You wore a hole through yours which makes me think it stopped rotating. I've been using a larger diameter roller and it's been fine for a hundred miles or so offroad. These come off my 3d printer so I wonder if that's the reason it failed on you. I bet switching to a stronger bearing and glueing it to the plastic is probably the best solution, then it'd look just like all the other rollers but fit our application better.
GGMT/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...Niner wfo...Astro 3215

Post by joostj » May 27 2016 2:48pm

I think my failure is due to the increased rpm of a 20:1...as well as the connex link That creates a slight bump as it passes the roller.

I'm a fan of a solid roller solution. Ideally I will find a way to put the red DMR on a lathe and grid off the inside lip to allow the chain to align properly. Other solid rollers are made of a hard almost plastic material...not ideal.

User avatar
panurge   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 628
Joined: Feb 03 2011 3:36am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by panurge » May 28 2016 4:14am

I've got far better experiences with the MRP old style orange roller http://www.cheapbikeparts360.com/produc ... t-rollers/ than with the DMR, that's based on both the original use (old style chainring tensioners) and the use as a roller tensioner for a 3220 4t after a 5/1 belt reduction. download/file.php?id=97281&mode=view
but they basically all sucks, if you're looking for reliability and durability....
Among the best stock rollers for bike chains, there are those TC..http://t-cycle.com/idlers-chain-management-c-41/

One of the best custom solution is what Matt (recumpence) and many others did in some builds: to lathe a groove on a Skate wheel and use it as a chain roller.........viewtopic.php?f=28&t=65549&start=50#p989868

Notice that the MRP has the groove not centered, so that, flipping the roller you get 2 slightly different "chainlines" that could be helpful for your setup.
Image
The spring roller I use for the left side chain (1/2x1/8 at the same speed yet mentioned) is an alfine tensioner for single speed setups, incredibly has 10.000 km and still works fine :) . it has not even a bearing :roll: like a standard derailleur jokey.......well It seems made of some secret delrinteflonoiledshimanoplasticstuff&bushings...http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4 ... SX300_.jpg Interestingly there's a hole in the pivoting arm that allows me to hook-up the spring onto.
of course since it is spring loaded it should see less force compared to your fixed roller on a short fixed chain that turns 1/4 the speed and drives 4x the torque...(given the same 3220 turns)

Honestly I'm fascinated by the Tangent drive and plan to get my hands on one soon. but What I realized after 10.000 km made with an Astro 3220 (separated LH drive), is that, given my 19/1 two stage (5/1*61/16) total reduction, the more reduction I get on the first stage, the less the second stage of the drive train is reliable.
Before Dave enriched the market of the stock AstroFlight Kits with this piece of Artwork (the tangentdrive), I would say that increasing over 5/1 the first stage would have been even a very hard, expansive, heavier and unreliable solution mostly on the torque side. Luckily that's not the case, anymore, but all the problems related to slower chains driving much more torque after the first stage should be still there.
Just to be clear, I'm sure that realizing all my 19/1 grand total in a single stage and than go 1/1 to the wheel with sprockets in the range of 15-25t shouldn't be the best idea......
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
nutnspecial   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3809
Joined: Mar 03 2015 10:19pm
Location: PA

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by nutnspecial » May 28 2016 7:49am

That's a good tip to mod a skate wheel. Lots of possibilites there! Instead of a bonafide lathe, alot of this little stuff (even metal stuff) can be done by chucking in a clamped down cordless drill, and using a dremel, file, sandpaper, grinder, etc while you turn the work piece.
mrp.jpg
mrp.jpg (8.73 KiB) Viewed 2860 times
I use the mrp (on right) also. Works good after I loctite'd to keep it on there.

I also really like the width and square lip of this urethane kit pulley but haven't seen similar for sale separately, thus making it not that cost effective.
roller.jpg
roller.jpg (14.78 KiB) Viewed 2860 times
Awesome build so far joostj!! Lookin forward to some vid when complete to show it off and the potential of the 20:1. These kits are awesome.

User avatar
motomoto   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 458
Joined: Jun 28 2010 8:22pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by motomoto » May 28 2016 11:00am

V-10.JPG
V-10.JPG (28.14 KiB) Viewed 2849 times
I have an Astro 3220 V-10 and it is a beefy frame. What turned me off was that the chain is under a lot of stress under
power. When the suspension goes through it's travel the rear wheel pulls away from the bottom bracket 35 mm or 1 3/8". That
is a lot, and you can feel that things are not happy when the suspension collapses with the power on. I would definitely go for
a frame with the swingarm pivot close to the top of the chainring.

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by joostj » May 29 2016 8:42am

Thanks guys for all of the tips and feedback.

I went ahead and ordered one each of these;

http://www.amazon.com/MRP-System-LRP-Re ... mrp+roller

http://www.amazon.com/Roller-Steelw-Hrd ... mrp+roller

Both should provide a better chain line. Also need to look at replacing the connex link with maybe a kmz link. Being able to remove the chain trail-side without tools is very attractive, but if it chews up the roller it's a no-go.

Ham   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 420
Joined: Feb 18 2016 3:08am

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by Ham » May 31 2016 5:06pm

Hi joost,

I am also running a Tangent 3220 kit with 20:1 reduction box...loving it and the acceleration. No hill poses any kind of problem. 25 to 30mph up the steepest of hills so far :)

What kind of top speed are you seeing?
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

User avatar
panurge   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 628
Joined: Feb 03 2011 3:36am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by panurge » Jun 01 2016 9:17am

Hi Joostj, sorry, I haven't spent my words for your awesome build: Cooooool
I'm waiting keen for performance and reliability reports about your build, Having yet the 3220, I have particular interest on the new kit for that motor.
Ah! what is the winding count of your Astro?

About the rollers I would add those on the list: http://www.risseracing.com/images/products/blackeye.jpg Never used, but could be the best delrin stock rollers

Hey MotoMoto, nice to hear again about your V10, Is it still on the road? how many miles if I can ask? Feedback about how the freehub handles the job?
About squat questions, that's true, the pivot point at the level of the powe chain would play a big part on that. But, Honestly I believe that a separated drive should be the best route for motors with the power of a 3220 or biggers, a big reduction in the last stage to the wheel will help even the squat balance and the space to play with its factors, a big chainring driving a small cog isn't the best config IMO. My feel is This motor just needs 2 or 3 speeds to cover the top speed it is capable, with the HP it can produce, still with unbelievable acceleration.
You have far more experience than me on the motorcycle side, would like to know better your thoughts.
Cheers
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by joostj » Jun 01 2016 2:35pm

What kind of top speed are you seeing?
I have hit 65kph. I am currently not geared for speed...i only use the road for short rides to the trails. I am sure the 3220 is capable of much more.
I'm waiting keen for performance and reliability reports about your build,
This is the part I am struggling with. I have had to push the bike home several times. The Tangent kit has not failed me at all, it's bulletproof. but I blew an ESC...destroyed a roller...and broke both chains.
I am experimenting with rollers, and also using stronger chains (wipperman ebike chain).
What turned me off was that the chain is under a lot of stress under
power. When the suspension goes through it's travel the rear wheel pulls away from the bottom bracket 35 mm or 1 3/8". That
is a lot, and you can feel that things are not happy when the suspension collapses with the power on. I would definitely go for
a frame with the swingarm pivot close to the top of the chainring.
I am curious if this could have contributed to my rear chain breaking?? One of these days I will try and measure the effect under power with some slow-mo video. It would be nice to have the time to just tinker with bikes all day. My goal over time will be to build reliability into this project...also need to start carrying some tools and spare parts on the trail.

My niner wfo is sold. Someone made me a great offer on the bike without the kit, so now I will commit to getting the v10 to work right...the 3215 20:1 kit will go up for-sale soon.

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Apr 23 2008 3:53pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 01 2016 4:38pm

joostj wrote: but I blew an ESC...
Any idea how you blew the ESC? What kind of battery pack are you running?

Ham   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 420
Joined: Feb 18 2016 3:08am

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by Ham » Jun 01 2016 4:47pm

This is all great comparison info as i am running a 38t chainring to an 11 - 34 cassette with hobby king lipos (50v fresh 32ah with some sag on full throttle) and max out at 42mph.

I'd be interested to know which batteries you use too....also I've pulled about a max of 130 amps by ca3 so far.

Running maxxi high roller 2.35 rubber on a 26 rim on a stumpjumper fsr.

Conversely to you...i have blown the first iteration of the 20:1 reduction unit...shattered the gears to pieces. New one with thicker non lightened gears is holding fine for now.
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

User avatar
joostj   100 W

100 W
Posts: 107
Joined: Oct 23 2015 5:21pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by joostj » Jun 02 2016 3:09am

The esc that blew was a castle creations 120. I was using a luna cycle 25r pack 14s8p.

I have now switched the esc to a to a talon120...much better with heat/surface area and was able to heat sink it to the custom mounting bracket (thanks Dave!).
I also built a custom battery pack with 30q cells in a 14s8p with dual BMS that I am currently using. I think the luna cycle pack is great, but the bms limits the amps to much for a 25r pack.

When the esc blew the cav3 was only at 70amp. I think the issue was likely due to heat.

Ham   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 420
Joined: Feb 18 2016 3:08am

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by Ham » Jun 02 2016 7:48am

Nice....a battery pack build is on the cards at some point too. 18650 cells are damn expensive over here!
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

User avatar
panurge   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 628
Joined: Feb 03 2011 3:36am
Location: Firenze - Berlin

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by panurge » Jun 02 2016 10:07am

Notice that HV series from Castle are rated 12s, so that using a 14s pack is risky, even with precautions...plus the 18650 have more intrinsic sag/ripple than lipos....At 160A with an 8p pack, you are at 20A per cell....probably I would go for a 12s-13s but 10p pack or even more. Remember to keep the battery/esc cables as short as possible and to use a bigger capacitor bank (sold even by castle) if your cables are longer than the stock coming from the ESC and/or your battery are not so big in terms of max discharge rates compared to the max expected peak amps your system needs.
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Apr 23 2008 3:53pm

Re: Tangent Build...V10...Astro 3220

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 02 2016 11:32am

panurge wrote:Notice that HV series from Castle are rated 12s, so that using a 14s pack is risky, even with precautions...plus the 18650 have more intrinsic sag/ripple than lipos....At 160A with an 8p pack, you are at 20A per cell....probably I would go for a 12s-13s but 10p pack or even more. Remember to keep the battery/esc cables as short as possible and to use a bigger capacitor bank (sold even by castle) if your cables are longer than the stock coming from the ESC and/or your battery are not so big in terms of max discharge rates compared to the max expected peak amps your system needs.
That's what I'm thinking. If you are operating within the specs, these Castle ESCs shouldn't blow. But if you are putting more volts or lengthening wires, then you could run into trouble. A 14S 18650 pack hot off the charger will be sitting around 57 volts and running at 52 volts nominal. Recumpence, who has had a lot of experience using these ESCs and has run them very hard has blown a few and also knows how to set them up to run reliably. I don't think he ever runs them above 50 volts. I'm using A123 cells and I had to decide between 14s and 16s. The 14S would give me 50.4 hot off the charger, but nominal is only 46.2. I would have preferred 16s, but I wanted a little extra pad to keep the ESC in a safe operating range. When I was using an 18650 pack, I only ran it at 12S.
Last edited by StinkyGoalieGuy on Jun 02 2016 12:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply