Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
steven.b.watts   100 W

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Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Mar 24 2016 10:58am

So I bought Sellick's mid-drive partial build

Looks like it will arrive here in Canada mid next week :D

More to come shortly

Specs:

- 80100 brushless DC outrunner motor (heavily modified)
- 10:1 ratio planetary gearbox by Apex Dynamics
- Dalton OSD clutch with custom sprocket
- 4x 6s Zippy Flightmax 5800mAh 40C LiPo packs (12s2p) 30c
- Castle Creations Phoenix Edge HV160 ESC
- Castle Creations CapPack
- Castle Creations 5.5mm bullet connectors
- 2x Castle Creations parallel connectors
- 4x Low Voltage Alarms and extension leads (mounted externally on frame)
- Magura Potentiometer throttle
- Kill switch
- Cycle Analyst V3
- 0.5mOhm external shunt
- Thermistor Temperature sensor
- Stainless steel jackshaft

- Heavily modified Commencal supreme DH frame
- Commencal Supreme DH rear swingarm
- Commencal Supreme DH linkage and associated hardware
- VP free bottom bracket
- Echo trials cranks
- Diamondback half-link chain
- KMC 1 1/8” chain
- Fox RP23 Vanilla rear shock
- Hope sealed headset
- Pro-grip mx grips (other grips won't fit over throttle)
- 2010 Boxxer Team fork
- Anodized Chris King hubs
- Mavic Rims, de stickered so I don't remember the model, they are DH tubeless rims setup tubeless.
- Avid Juicy Seven brakes
- Anodized Chris King bottom bracket
- Straitline integrated stem
- Sram XO shifter
- Sram X9 Derailleur

- Castle Link USB programming kit
- Cell log
- Genuine Turnigy Accucel 6 charger with Hobbyking power supply
- Range of 08b hardened steel sprockets
- Range of high-quality bearings
Last edited by steven.b.watts on May 06 2016 8:20am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mid-Drive Build

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Supreme Commencal Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Leeleeducati » Mar 25 2016 7:04am

Great to hear the build continues and nice to see more mid drives around this part of the world.

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Supreme Commencal Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Mar 30 2016 4:20pm

^ thanks! You have a REALLY nice bike!

So when I got home last night, I found this on my bed! Just arrived from the UK. SO friggin awesome! :twisted:

Image

Planning on building a plexiglass cover for the batteries/motor and have two of these, one blowing air in and one sucking air out. The plan was to have them mounted on the plexiglass cover, on the inside so the outside is smooth and flush, but I doubt the batteries will leave enough room:

Image
Last edited by steven.b.watts on Apr 22 2016 7:14pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mid-Drive Build

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Apr 22 2016 6:48pm

Jackshaft was broken when it showed up. I bought a chunk of bar stock and found a shop that still had manual CNC machines to re-make my jackshaft with a lathe and vertical mill. I also bought a digital caliper and made all the measurements. Here's a shot of the drawing in case anyone wants to recycle it:

Image

Now that I am done exams, I am going to have time to get everything put together.

I bought this bike for parts:

Image

My batteries will be delivered in 2 days (says FedEx). 4x 6s1p 5.8Ah 22.2V 30C

I have taken photos of pretty much everything wiring related and labelled all the photos. I will explain everything below, using the #s as references

(The unit to the left of #4 is my controller, a Castle Phoenix HVf 160 with cooling fan, click here for details.)

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Also, any ideas what these are?

Image

Image
Last edited by steven.b.watts on May 06 2016 8:13am, edited 6 times in total.
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Mid-Drive Build

straby187   1 mW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by straby187 » Apr 22 2016 9:23pm

I dont think CC HV160 to the cycle analyst has been that often because the only the V3 has PPM capabilties..you can start here i guess https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =63012&f=2 looking at the picture at the end the only thing I can think of is shaft supports for the jackshaft that goes through the rear triangle pivot. The chain roller probably went near the rear cog for tension....

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Apr 22 2016 9:42pm

Please note only #'s 21-23, 40, 41, 44, 52, 57, and 58 are yet to be clarified. All other parts are explained below in an effort to help the next person:

Thanks for the help, I'll look through that thread now.

The jackshaft is much smaller than the pieces in the last photo. As for the red chain guide, it was not used as a chain tensioner (there is a custom made chain tensioner because of the position of the jackshaft on the swingarm mount not allowing the chain to go under the swing arm)

The entire setup was hooked up a couple of years ago and working with all the pieces I have so there must be a way to solve this puzzle, "how" is the only question.

#1, #2 and #3 hook-up to my motor

#4 power wire for controller fan

#5 controller Aux link for accessories

#6 what would normally connect to a receiver if used in a normal application (RC plane etc.) my receiver, in this case, is my cycle analyst, and therefore has a custom configuration with the CA v3 wires soldered onto the board inside the controller, deeming this connector useless in this application.

#6 connects to #53 (Castle USB Programmer)

#7 - #12 battery cable (I don't beleive they are configured properly in the photo, but that's how I received them)

#13 connects to #14 (controller to Cycle Analyst)

#15 is a thermistor plug-in

#16 ebrake cutoff (I guess I plug one of these) into it, which cuts off power to this rear wheel whenever I brake. The ones on ebikes.ca/grin tech are only for v brakes or mechanical disk brakes. Anyone know of one that works with hydraulic disk brakes? It says they're a replacement for a brake lever, but I kind of need my brake lever to brake...)

#17 Auxillary pot (I think this is used for an array of accessories, like this.. and this)

#18 speedo (mounted on forks, with magnet on spokes, same as any regular bicycle speedo)

#19 Communication cable plug-in

#20 PAS (i don't have it, may order one)

#24 - #27 connects charger to batteries

#28 - #30 crocodile clips to use car battery as power supply if/when necessary

#31 - #33 and #36 are for balance charging smaller battery packs (i.e. <6s)

#34 - #35 connects to #24 - #25 for charging LiPos

#37 is for the balance leads off my 6s packs to balance the cells while charging the packs (i.e. balance charge)

#38 temp sensor input (Don't have one, because my temp sensor (#42-#43) 1. plug is not compatible 2. if i set it up I would set it up on my stator, so would do much for charging temp)

#39 power supply to charger

#42 - #43 is my thermistor (clips in to #13 on cycle analyst) I think I would connect it:

Image

But i'm not sure if I need to install it since i'm not running a high power system, relative to most setups on this site

#45 communication cable, plugs into #19 on v3 (just used to program the cycle analyst on a computer?)

#46 - #51 smaller shunt

#54 is part of cell log, for non-LiPo applications?

#55 is used to check individual battery or cell capacity on the fly (charger does this too, but cell log is easier to transport in pocket while riding)

#56 I hook these up to the balance leads on each individual battery pack when I go riding, when any cell drops below 3.3V an alarm goes off to tell me to shut 'er down and start pedaling home to a power supply so I don't damage my batteries

#59 part of 80100 bushless DC motor before it was trimmed off (see sellick's original thread for details)

Still haven't figured out:

#40, #41, and #52, for plugging charger into any power source with a general +/- tap?

#44, for plugging charger into computer..?

#57, #58, and last pic?
Last edited by steven.b.watts on Apr 24 2016 7:57pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Mid-Drive Build

KOMAN   100 mW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by KOMAN » Apr 25 2016 1:23am

Excellent work.
Engine that you plan to use?.
How many watts?
That reduction system used.?
Luck and enjoy your e bike

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Apr 25 2016 11:23am

KOMAN wrote:Excellent work.
Engine that you plan to use?.
How many watts?
That reduction system used.?
Luck and enjoy your e bike
Hey Koman,

if you click on the world "build" in my first post, ~seventh word in this thread, it will take you to the original builder's thread. All of those specs should be in his first post in the thread I am referring to.

80100 brushless DC outrunner motor (heavily modified)
10:1 ratio planetary gearbox made by Apex Dynamics

Thanks :)
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Mid-Drive Build

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » May 13 2016 11:45am

Still have some things to do, but here's where I'm at now:

Image

The Nexus-3 IGH Hub the previous owner was using was ~125mm wide, so there was 1cm of room to slide on the chain tensioner he used to redirect the chain above the lower arm on the swing arm. However, I am using a standard width (135mm) mtb cassette style rear hub so I did not have room for this. This has caused me a lot of problems, but I think I have found a way around it. I am also having issues working with a 1/8" chain and 1/8" sprocket at the jackshaft. My cassette is 3/32" (like all road/mtb cassettes) so my chain just hops off. I am in the midst of fabricating a cassette with wider sprockets and spacers but have to take the weekend off. Will get back on here next week for an update.
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KOMAN   100 mW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by KOMAN » May 15 2016 3:00pm

Excellent work,
I see step by step updates.
Thanks for sharing

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » May 17 2016 7:22pm

Took the bike out of the basement (finally)

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As soon as I lightly turned the throttle, I heard a lot of loud painful noises. Looked down and the main sprag clutch one way bearing (csk12pp) had broken. I will order more, but it got me to thinking, what if that bearing can't handle the power? I'm screwed.. if it can't handle the motor, then there is absolutely no way to get the power to the back wheel.

Also, my controller (found here) is a Castle Creations Pheonix Edge hvf 160. When I got the bike back in the house I noticed the red LED light on my controller flashing +--, which, according to the owners manual (found here) means "Excess Load"...

From Owner's manual:

"ESC detected very high current spikes. Causes may include damaged
wiring leading to, or inside, the motor, or the use of too large a motor for
the controller.

Remove power from the controller and check for shorts. If none are
found, verify the controller can handle the motor’s current load. As a
safety feature, if multiple Excessive Load errors are detected, beeping
will be disabled.

If error continues, contact Castle Tech Support."

I was under the impression the controller would simply suck the power it needed, and that there is no harm in having a big battery with a small-ish controller, but it was a waste to have a big controller with a small-ish battery. Was I wrong when thinking this? I feel like I may have been
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nutnspecial   1.21 GW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by nutnspecial » May 17 2016 7:42pm

The controller will dish out as much as it can, either by its' programming or by the motor it's connected to. Set it lower for the purpose of testing. I'm not sure on the sprag, but you may wanna take it apart and see what failed. Apparently the builder and others do have success with that type FW, at least for a time - another reason to reign in the controller/esc/current for primary testing.

Looking forward to how you make out. Good luck!

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Leeleeducati » May 20 2016 5:28am

A bit more pricey but more robust, I've used this one with success (same dimensions):

http://www.bearingscanada.com/NSS12-One ... -requi.htm

Even have a spare up here in Canada if interested. You'd need to support it and note there's no key on the outer race (interference press fit). Another pic. on pg.6 of my build.

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » May 20 2016 8:09am

Thanks, nice build!

At double the price I hope it will be more robust. Would suck to break a 75$+ bearing in the first 10 metres as I I'd with he 35$ one.

I'm a little confused about how it says it needs another bearing to work, a bearing inside a bearing? Any recommendations on what counter part to order with it?
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Mid-Drive Build

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Leeleeducati » May 20 2016 9:13am

Side by side with another "regular" bearing.

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Jun 03 2016 5:55pm

I got both bearings replaced, press fitted them in, and they don't work. I got the 80$ bearing in hopes that twice the money would mean twice the quality. I tried both ways to make sure I wasn't putting the sprag clutch bearing in backwards. One way moves freely (obviously the wrong side), then the other side actually catches when I stand beside the bike and lift the back end up, but as soon as I sit on the bike it just makes a clicking noise and doesn't work (engine moves gear, but movement is not translated into jack shaft I.e. jack shaft does not rotate as gear spins). I then figured, okay, I broke another bearing. But when I took it off, I used a screw driver to test and the one way functionality still worked. It almost seems like it loses its one way functionality under stress, but doesn't break it? Weird...

I'm at a loss. If anyone could help, that would be great.
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Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Leeleeducati » Jun 03 2016 10:21pm

That sounds odd? Can you take a picture or even sketch how the gears/bearings connect from the motor output all the way back to the rear?

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Jun 03 2016 10:24pm

Yes I can, will figure out YouTube tomorrow
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steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Jun 04 2016 1:40pm

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nutnspecial   1.21 GW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 04 2016 2:53pm

Nice bike, and nice vid bro! When 'failing', I was trying to tell if the innermost part of the sprag is rotating on the shaft or if it is indeed some weird internal failure of it's clutch mech. Probably easier to confirm for you?

Also, under power and with wheel spinning, does it take much resistance to stop the wheel?
Was there any difference at all when you tried the bearing reversed?

You'll get it, that's gonna be a fun ride! 8)

steven.b.watts   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by steven.b.watts » Jun 04 2016 4:13pm

nutspecial wrote:Nice bike, and nice vid bro! When 'failing', I was trying to tell if the innermost part of the sprag is rotating on the shaft or if it is indeed some weird internal failure of it's clutch mech. Probably easier to confirm for you?

Also, under power and with wheel spinning, does it take much resistance to stop the wheel?
Was there any difference at all when you tried the bearing reversed?

You'll get it, that's gonna be a fun ride! 8)
Thanks :)

The jackshaft has a key way that locks the jackshaft onto the inner most part of the bearing, forcing the jackshaft to do whatever the inner most ring on the bearing does. Similar concept on the outter most ring of the bearing, but using a different method (press-fit).

The outter most ring on the bearing is in fact moving whenever the gear is rotated, so the press-fit is functioning as it should. The inner most ring of the bearing is also in fact moving whenever the jack shaft is rotated, so the key way is functioning as it should. The issue, unfortunately, boils down to the bearing itself. It is so odd, because when I pop it out, and use a flat head to try to rotate the inner circle of the bearing, I can't get it to do what the bike is getting it to do.

If I flip the bearing around, it's even worse. The bearing won't turn the jackshaft what so ever, not even with the back wheel off the ground

No resistance stopping the wheel what so ever (I believe what your getting at is that their would be resistance if it was on backwards as I would be stopping the motor as well)

It makes no sense what so ever
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Miles » Jun 04 2016 6:27pm

So, you've got an unhoused one way bearing with a nominal rating of 9Nm after a reduction of more than 10:1 from an 80-100 outrunner?

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panurge   10 kW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by panurge » Jun 05 2016 5:29am

That's exactly what I was thinking about....those bearings are rated at 10-12Nm in the best cases.
There are other mistery facts to me: seems that the drive sprocket at the motor output is 14t and the imput at the Apex gearbox is 11t. I would expect the opposite.....
JulesL.


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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Miles » Jun 05 2016 6:24am

panurge wrote:There are other mistery facts to me: seems that the drive sprocket at the motor output is 14t and the imput at the Apex gearbox is 11t. I would expect the opposite.....
and the chain drive between the clutch and the freewheel sprocket is close to 1:1 if not overdriven, as well....

To meet the specification of those one way clutches, they need to be pressed completely into a substantial housing. It looks like there is less than a third of it within the sprocket...?

The one way clutch is completely inadequate. If it was working, it wouldn't be for long. I think you need to start again with the whole freewheel assembly.

Leeleeducati   100 W

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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Post by Leeleeducati » Jun 05 2016 6:43am

Where did 9Nm or 10-12Nm come from?

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