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Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Mar 08 2017 5:56am
by panurge
Hello Steven,
You need a new shaft made by steel or Ti. It should have a key groove both ends and/or flats for screwsets, if you want to keep the beariing assembly, than you need a 12mm shaft as it was.
At each end you will mount (with keyway/setscrews) the staton inc freewheel adapters for standard bicycle threaded freewheels. for a 12mm shaft, you have the option to get a blank (no hole) adapter:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1863 (for 15t and up)
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1864 (for 13-15t)
and let your shop to taper/drill/broach what you need for coupling it with the shaft.

or you can start from a 11mm bore version like that, rectify it to 12 and eventually add drilled tapered holes for setscrews and adapt a key.

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1865

this one should be good for the right side of the jackshaft since you can mount a fixed cog and a freewheel in the same adapter.

You will need RH threaded adapters and RH freewheels both ends, with just the left one flipped over (the whoole adapter with the freewheel mounted) or you can decide for a LH threaded adapter with LH freewheel in the left end of the Jackshaft, LH freewheels are available, but normally with less quality.

excess and ACS as well as the higher end WI eno are the most used and reliable 16+T units; with a M30 x 1 threaded adapter you could mount 13t FW units and also LH ones like dicta or acs southpaw.

You just need to choose your motor and do the right math starting form its specs and your torque/speed needs, to decide the whole reduction and how to spread that over the stages, keeping in mind that the other important question is to verify you have enough space for the adapters/sprockets/freewheels in the new configuration.

Resuming everything:

Define torque and speed demands/Chose motor
Define overall reduction
Define teeth count for any drive and driven sprocket (or pulley) with attention to the room available for them and their chains/belts.
Get the shaft, the 2 adapters, sprockets/pulleys and the 2 freewheel units.

As said I would suggest an Astro, you couldn't have many other options for the space other than an Astro or again an 80-100 style outrunner.
As said if you choose a faster motor, the Apex gearbox, almost useless as it was, could turns otherwise really useful.

Hopemy POW it's now clear enough and I look forward to progress on that.

I'll be glad to support this build for what I can.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 06 2017 12:16pm
by steven.b.watts
panurge wrote:Hello Steven,
You need a new shaft made by steel or Ti. It should have a key groove both ends and/or flats for screwsets, if you want to keep the beariing assembly, than you need a 12mm shaft as it was.
At each end you will mount (with keyway/setscrews) the staton inc freewheel adapters for standard bicycle threaded freewheels. for a 12mm shaft, you have the option to get a blank (no hole) adapter:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1863 (for 15t and up)
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1864 (for 13-15t)
and let your shop to taper/drill/broach what you need for coupling it with the shaft.

or you can start from a 11mm bore version like that, rectify it to 12 and eventually add drilled tapered holes for setscrews and adapt a key.

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1865

this one should be good for the right side of the jackshaft since you can mount a fixed cog and a freewheel in the same adapter.

You will need RH threaded adapters and RH freewheels both ends, with just the left one flipped over (the whoole adapter with the freewheel mounted) or you can decide for a LH threaded adapter with LH freewheel in the left end of the Jackshaft, LH freewheels are available, but normally with less quality.

excess and ACS as well as the higher end WI eno are the most used and reliable 16+T units; with a M30 x 1 threaded adapter you could mount 13t FW units and also LH ones like dicta or acs southpaw.

You just need to choose your motor and do the right math starting form its specs and your torque/speed needs, to decide the whole reduction and how to spread that over the stages, keeping in mind that the other important question is to verify you have enough space for the adapters/sprockets/freewheels in the new configuration.

Resuming everything:

Define torque and speed demands/Chose motor
Define overall reduction
Define teeth count for any drive and driven sprocket (or pulley) with attention to the room available for them and their chains/belts.
Get the shaft, the 2 adapters, sprockets/pulleys and the 2 freewheel units.

As said I would suggest an Astro, you couldn't have many other options for the space other than an Astro or again an 80-100 style outrunner.
As said if you choose a faster motor, the Apex gearbox, almost useless as it was, could turns otherwise really useful.

Hopemy POW it's now clear enough and I look forward to progress on that.

I'll be glad to support this build for what I can.
Thanks!

I'm going to order the motor you recommended sometime within the next 2 weeks. I had to sell my old wheels because it turns out that I have to try using the igh as it had a custom chain guide that is necessary. It took a good chunk of money to do that but the motor is next.

I suppose the first step is to define my torque and speed demands. I would like 70km/h top speed. However, if it goes faster I definitely wouldn't complain. As for torque I don't really know if there's a more scientific way to say this but I would like enough torque to get the front wheel easily off the ground at any speed.

Is there a resource that can show me how to calculate the total reduction and teeth count? How would someone normally go about figuring those out?

Thanks!

- Steve

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 07 2017 8:34am
by steven.b.watts
Panurge, would you take a PayPal donation to do all necessary calculations for me?

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 09 2017 5:46am
by panurge
If you keep the thread and bike alive I'll actively help to check and guide your steps for what I can.
But you should understand that most of the efforts are your part.
As suggested before I would start having the pedal bike fully functional and testing the pedal pivot transmission first, if you can do that test with the old jackshaft (without motor imput) do it and than go to the next step that's basically to make a new pivot jackshaft having done all the reduction calculations starting from the right motor (an Astro or whatever)...and the space constraints for sprockets/pulleys choices and eventually the APEX gearbox.

I do not know if the IGH is the best idea to withstand the torque and beats of repeated wheelies. A Single speed transmission with a big rear sprocket and a proper motor is the best way for that IMHO.
70kph with gears is technically easy (but expect wear and reliabilty problems). 70kph with a single speed is near the top end of an Astro 3220 maintaining ESC-safety and still get awesome accelerations, this is actually a more reliable and durable setup IMHO, because the chainline could be perfect all the time, and because you could choose among more drive/driven sprockets combos to get a faster final chain that spreads the torque component of the power over more teeth.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 11 2017 11:30am
by steven.b.watts
Okay, thanks :)

Sounds good. I can test it with old jackshaft I just need to grind off the tack welds tomorrow.

I sold my wheels because I didn't want pink hubs or 26" wheels, and my rear hub was 130mm. My dropouts are 130mm but there's no room to run the chain directly to the rear hub - it needs to be reduced by a chain tensioner. Previously owner built one but it goes on the rear axle inside the dropouts and it's 5mm thick. His igh is 125mm thick so it left room for this but I haven't seen any other 125mm rear hubs. What would you recommend for wheels? 24"? Or is there a moto rim that is easy enough to lace to the single speed hub you recommended? Do you know of any 125mm hubs? Maybe my igh was 130mm but it got modified to 125mm (I looked and it doesn't look like it but I can't think of anything else that makes sense).

I think the first step to get the bike working manually would be to order a 24" wheelset or one that you recommend (wouldn't mind smaller moto wheels).

Once I get those I'll have to choose what size rear sprocket I want and then install and that's about it for the first part.

I'll also need to grab a new one way bearing for the sprocket on the jack shaft that connects to my cranks because it got busted when I was pressing it back onto the jackshaft last time.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 14 2017 2:32pm
by steven.b.watts
Hey,

I replaced the one way bearing and the bike is ready to roll (manually) as soon as I get my new wheel set. My drop outs are 130mm and I need room for my 5mm chain tensioner (it's necessary to redirect the chain off the jackshaft as the swing arm is in the way since the jackshaft is mounted on the swing arm pivot). I'm about to order a new wheelset but it needs to have a rear hub that is small enough to fit in the 130mm drop outs with a 5mm chain tensioner on the axle inside the dropouts (so rear hub has to be <125mm). I was wondering what you have been using or what you recommend? If I don't hear back I'll just order whatever I can find (of reasonable quality of course) because someone stole my pedal bike so I'm anxious to get this running... at least with my two feet.

Ps I sold my 26" because I needed a different sized rear hub, didn't want pink hubs and because wanted smaller rims - but mainly because I wanted smaller rims. I'm getting 24" because I know where to find them but if anyone can recommend a sweet small and fat moto rim I would prefer that because they look bad ass.

Hopefully I get an answer soon so I don't order something I'll regret!

Cheers gang!

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 16 2017 3:13pm
by panurge
the only smaller disc hubs I know are some 130mm road and 116mm trial. The 116mm trials are all thread on hubs though, and build a big wheel with such a smaller OLD is not ideal.
Do not put much efforts in the pedal test with the old jackshaft. I'l recomended it just to be sure the bike is ok. It has important mods in the frame and pivot after all.

Than choose the motor. an astro would be fun and reliable. but sure expensive.
With an astro and the constrains of the small rear sprocket, the apex gearbox could turn useful.
I would use the 26" inch wheels the bike was projected for.
If you have the Nexus still working, why not use it, at least you could start with it.

Than rebuild the jackshaft with the adapters and freewheels after having measured all the spaces and dimensions of the parts and the frame.

with a 26x2.5" wheel (2100mm) and a 4t 3220 or a 8t 3210 @48V you should plan a total reduction in the range between 13:1 and 25:1
13:1 means approx 65/70 kph (3220 only) , 25:1 means 40Kph approx.
An IGH hub would allow for 3 gears in that range, but a 3220 motor would destroy it fast IMHO.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 21 2017 6:14am
by steven.b.watts
Hey,

Unfortunately by the time I got this I had already a set of 24" s-type MTB wheels. Going to use the igh for the time being because I couldn't find any other half decent 126mm rear hubs.

I had to replace the csk8pp bearing for the crank arms end of the jackshaft but I got that in the mail yesterday. The wheels come in the mail tomorrow then I have to get the rear whee rebuilt with the igh. Once that is done I'll be rollin :)

I think I'll have enough money to order the Astro on Friday! I'll probably order it right from the company as oppose to a reseller/retailer.

I'll also order the adapters and free wheel on Friday. They won't be much money but I'll have a hell of a time trying to make sure I get the right ones.

Thanks :D starting to get really anxious to get it going!

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 22 2017 11:11am
by panurge
the simplest way would be the followings, I will use the numbers of your sketch

1: keep the 13t you have especially if you can transplant everything to the new motor.
2: a 15 t sprocket at APEX input will give a 1.15:1 ratio, the gearbox should sustain 7000rpm and about 8Nm torque peaks inputs with a 3220.
3: that's the 17t sprocket of your dalton clutch. Keep it there, but it should be 1/2"x1/8" pitch.
4: a 20t (till 22t) Freewheel unit over a Staton inc adapter, coupled with the jackshaft left end
5: a fixed 18t cog possibly mounted over the same adapter of N. 7
6: a 24t nexus compatible cog (is the biggest stock I know of)
7: a 15t freewheel unit over the same adpter of N.5 coupled with the jackshaft Right end.
8: the biggest chainring you have room for.

(NOTES)

-Please note that although this figure has probably the most conservative and economic approach is not the only one and not the best and could have some critical points!!!
-1 to 2: this stage could use a belt instead of chain, so if the old assembly on 1 will not work with the new motor I would consider make a belt stage here.
-3: must be 1/2 pitch, and preferably for 1/8 width chains (BMX, trial, dirt, slopestyle, track....)
- 4-5-7 and eventually 6: you may be in the situation where you have not enough room for some of previous figures, these are the stages where you can play with little gearing changes, I would keep the 24t nexus cog and I would stay in the 16.5-19 to 1 total ratio. depending on your IGH
- The new jackshaft must use the same bearings but must be sized to match Staton adapters with flats/key both ends.

These numbers give a 18:1 total reduction (when the IGH is in 1:1). that means about 55kph at 12s fresh of charge, you can even increase top speed in the future with 13-14s packs instead of altering the gearing (Dave/tangent extensive tests with Castle ESC demonstrate that castle controllers withstand to 13 and even 14s!)

Please post the gears ratios of your nexus, or the shimano code as there are few different types of 3speed

P.S. My MP6 bike has a 24x2.5 rear high roller maxxis tire, an astro 3220 4t stock and a 19:1 total reduction.
@12s fresh of charge it tops out at 52-53 kph, at 18:1 you should be just a bit faster....at 16.5:1 you should get a 60+ kph.

Look at the Astro datasheet for mounting holes PCD (4 x .500) and dimensions, standard axle is 3/8, but you can ask for a 1/2 upgrade on order.
Consider also to buy form resellers like DavinciDrives (recumpence) especially if you would go the belt route for the first stage, plenty of expertise there....
Hope it helps

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 23 2017 2:10pm
by steven.b.watts
1. the one I have is 14t, can I use that?
2. the one I have is 11t, can I use that?
3. it is 17t and it is 1/2" x 1/8" so that's good
4. will order ASAP, 20t or 22t? I think I have both, and a free wheel, lying around.
5. the one I have is 19t, can I use that?
6. I have a 21t and a 22t, can I use the 22t?

I agree that the belt would be better but there are major space constraints so i'm going to avoid it for now.

Nexus Shimano code: SG-3D55

Right on! Why did you choose 19:1 and not something like 16.5:1? Reliability?

The axle on my current motor is 1/2" so I'll definitely ask them for that if I'm going to reuse the 14t cog.

I'll ask DevinciDrives if they'll sell me an Astro at a cheaper price. Maybe I'll also ask them if there's room for a belt drive in there.

Thanks!

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 23 2017 10:00pm
by panurge
1 - you wrote 13 in the thread earlier.....so it is 14 instead? I've told you that was 14t from sellik pictures! :twisted:
2 - 11t : no you cannot use that. you should use a sprocket that is bigger than 1 to get a reduction (1.15 bigger in my hypothesis) but Looking at that picture:
commencal primary.jpg
seems to me there isn't any room to increase the sprocket diameter at the apex input. that could be a serious problem. measure that space to define if you can increase at least to 12t - 13t. With 11t you cannot get any reduction. you could try a 1:1 stage (so 11 to 11 at number 1 and 2) but the best approach here is to re-project that stage using something with a smaller pitch (= more teeth in the same diameter) possibly belt (for safety, noise reduction and efficiency, this is a 7000 rpm stage!!!) with 1:1 your belt should be reasonably thin I think, perhaps other members will come to help here.
3 - 17t : ok
4 - :try with a 22t freewheel (this must be a LH freewheel or a regular RH mounted in a flipped over Staton freewheel adapter).
5 - 19t : no you should put a 18 or even a 17 due to the problems @number 1, instead. Remember that 4-5 and 7 that are mounted over adapters in the new jackshaft will be a completely different assembly.
6 - let's figure out with your 22t, perhaps you've no room to increase that to 24, because of the stays and tensioner.
7 - this should be a regular RH freewheel and possibly threaded over the same adapter of the fixed cog @ N.5.
From china you can get even 14t freewheels with 1.37x24 threads http://www.ebay.it/itm/272151306145?clk ... rmvSB=true but quality is not the best I bet. However, regular reliable units start at 16t. The smaller this sprocket (and bigger the chainring), the more you can pedal at decent speed.
8 - the biggest chainring you have room for

NOTE
This will not be an useful pedal bike in any case.
commencal pedal and common final stages.jpg
lets do the math for the motor drive:
1:1 (first stage)
10:1 (gearbox)
22:17 (second stage)
22:17 (common stage)
10*1.3*1.3=16.9:1

If you use a 16t sprocket in n.5 the total ratio will be 1.375*1.3*10= 17.9:1 and pedal ratio even worst
if you use a 19t sprocket in n.5 the total ratio will be 15:1, and pedal ratio a bit better (0.9)
Now the pedal drive:

14:18 (crank to jackshaft)
22:17 (common stage)
that is a 1:1 gear....just to climb something huge, it's a really useless and embarassing speed on flat like 10-12 kph at 100rpm or more likely 5-6 at 50 :)

last: seems there are at least 2 kind of that shimano IGH model, one with 186% and a 2nd direct drive 1:1 gear, and another 158% with 1:1 in 3rd gear. Just be sure about your true IGH gear ratio.

I have a 19:1 because I want insane climb-ability and fast acceleration. 50-55 kph is more than enough with a bike. I can mount a 26" wheel and get some more or swap my 16t freewheel for a 18t for even more speed. I pushed my bike till 78 kph with a faster gear ratio, but being single speed, the acceleration was not the same, and I don't really need to go 70+ with a bike.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 28 2017 4:54am
by panurge
You could ask me why I would use a different crank sprocket freewheel assembly , from the actual:
because I doubt that the csk will withstand the torque from your pedal input under load (you have actually a 10:17 that means 0.58 ratio, a human is capable of huge torque although without much speed, and even with half the human torque, this is a bad scenario for a one way bearing that small. Add that this clutch seems to me unsupported (by another bearing) and you got the answer. 10t is also really a low count sprocket for a very short stage like that.

After having considered and measured all the space constraints in every sprocket position, and that the Astro motor is compatible with the frame mounts, I would say, before to order the motor, you should design and build the new jackshaft and define the sprockets.

As one of the cheaper way for the JShaft, if you haven't local sources, You could consider a 1/2" shaft, than let your shop, or anybody with a good lathe, to rectify the rest (say 75%) of the shaft lenght to 12mm. You could also ask the shop to machine flats at the right quotes for screwsets and/or create 1/8 groove for the key.

The shaft would be inserted from the 12mm end thru the pivot bearing assembly exiting the other side.

-The 1/2 end could mount a single, a 2-in-1 or a couple of independent freewheel adapters (depends on your choice of the shaft orientation) bored at 1/2" with 1/8x1/8 keygroove ans s.s. directly form staton inc.

-The 12mm end could mount a custom freewheel adapter bored from a solid Staton inc one. or totally custom made. That's because Staton has not stock 12mm parts.

With the gearing examples of the previous posts you could play to choose your best one among the (I bet) 2 or 3 max allowed.

As a guide line, I would remember that if the reduction of your choice (15 to 18:1) is realized mostly before the jackshaft, this will result in a better ratio for pedals; However, the more the reduction in the last common stage, the more the chain and the sprockets involved will be reliable an last, but the pedal drive speed, that should otherwise be increased to provide a decent speed, is strongly affected by that "common reduction".

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 29 2017 12:19pm
by steven.b.watts
Hey!

Thanks for all the info, it's really great and much appreciated!

Haha yeah it's 14t!

Yeah... not much room at all... a belt would be nice but there's hardly any room in there for anything. Doesn't look like there are any active members on here that can chip in about the belt :( What if I make 1 smaller to get the necessary reduction?

I wonder how I could figure out my true IGH gear ratio. I don't think I got any paperwork with it but i'll double check.

I agree about the acceleration vs top speed. I would prefer acceleration.

I am looking at the staton adapters and really wish there were ones that were pre drilled at 12mm so I didn't have to pay to get them fabricated. As per your recommendation, I'll get the jack shaft and all these confusing adapters sorted before I order the motor.

What is common reduction?

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 29 2017 12:28pm
by steven.b.watts
#4:

RH stuff:

Freewheel:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... uct&id=635

Adapter:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1930
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=2050 (alumininium, bad idea?)
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1931
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=2033 (probably this one because of the set screws?)
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1797 (wider)
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1914
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1915

LH stuff:

Freewheel:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... uct&id=700

Adapter:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=2147
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=2270

I think I need LH I just want to double check? The only reason I ask is because you said something about having the option to use a RH one flipped over a staton adapter.

I don't think I need to order from China to get 14t freewheel for #7:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1980

Or better yet, 13t for #7 here:
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... uct&id=725

And use that 13t or 14t with this adapter
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1864

Or turn it down to 11mm and use one of these so I don't have to pay to get the no hole adapter bored out to 12mm?
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1860
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1861
http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1918

Just having a hard time finding any cogs for #5 that will fit on the 1.0x30 adapter needed to get #7 down to 14t or 13t .. or a14t or 13t freewheel with 1.375 x 24mm thread count

Here's the 24t for rear wheel you were thinking about (if there's room) http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=2230

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jun 29 2017 3:51pm
by steven.b.watts
I'm honestly not sure if the adapter will leave room for #5 and #7 because the freewheels and adapters all have the 30mm or 24mm dimension which I believe is the depth therefor they will be an exact fit with no room on the threads for #5, unless these measurements are the diameter of the hole not the depth of all the threads? I hope the chain alignment is still possible!

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 03 2017 6:56am
by panurge
steven.b.watts wrote:Yeah... not much room at all... a belt would be nice but there's hardly any room in there for anything. Doesn't look like there are any active members on here that can chip in about the belt :( What if I make 1 smaller to get the necessary reduction?
You will not get any reduction until #1 is bigger than #2
11:11= 1:1 you actually have 14 to 11 that is the opposite of a speed reduction.
steven.b.watts wrote:I wonder how I could figure out my true IGH gear ratio. I don't think I got any paperwork with it but i'll double check.
Do your search with your code and pictures, it shouldn't be that hard having the product in hands, Y. of production could be the key.
Another way, at least to be sure which is the 1:1 gear, is to drive the wheel 1:1 and count the turns of the wheel in each gear for each driving sprocket (crank or whatever) turn. when this ratio is 1:1 you've found the 1:1 gear. Apparently this could be enough to determine your IGH ratios.
steven.b.watts wrote:I am looking at the staton adapters and really wish there were ones that were pre drilled at 12mm so I didn't have to pay to get them fabricated. As per your recommendation, I'll get the jack shaft and all these confusing adapters sorted before I order the motor.
yes, these are really cheap parts compared to the funds needed for a motor or a belt stage. so buy some of them and start to play with them in your hands, and positioning them with the frame you could get a better idea of what are you needs for a second order if they are not ok.
steven.b.watts wrote:What is common reduction?
I mean the last stage, that is common to both the pedal and the motor drives, so that, this final common stage ratio, is a multiplier for both the pedal and the motor ratios. your jackshaft is a shaft that not shifts the line position of a single drive, but 2, it merges 2 separated drive inputs in a common single output. from there you have a common stage.
steven.b.watts wrote:I think I need LH I just want to double check? The only reason I ask is because you said something about having the option to use a RH one flipped over a staton adapter.
Yes it could be done. a standard rh freewheel is meant to be screwed over rh threads from right as driven, and from left as driver. So a rh thread adapter, that most cases has threads not going over the full depth, is meant to be mounted accordingly. However If you screw-on a freewheel over an adptor and mount the whole assembly flipped over the jackshaft's end, so with the removal slots of the freewheel facing the frame,, you obtain a freewheel working the opposite of the original mean. (so an RH unit working as LH and vice-versa).
steven.b.watts wrote: I don't think I need to order from China to get 14t freewheel for #7:
You should if the adapter is 1.37x24tpi. standard units here start at 16t
you shouldn't if you use a metric 30mmx1mm threaded adapter.
steven.b.watts wrote:Or turn it down to 11mm and use one of these so I don't have to pay to get the no hole adapter bored out to 12mm?
This could be a possibility, You should rectify that jackshaft down 2 times, so it will be 1/2" one end, 12mm middle where the 12mmID bearings are, and 11mm the other end.....12mm is stronger than 11mm, though.....
steven.b.watts wrote:Just having a hard time finding any cogs for #5 that will fit on the 1.0x30 adapter needed to get #7 down to 14t or 13t .. or a14t or 13t freewheel with 1.375 x 24mm thread count
Eh, that's why I pointed to the chinese freewheel, that was a 14t unit with 1.37x24tpi
steven.b.watts wrote:m honestly not sure if the adapter will leave room for #5 and #7 because the freewheels and adapters all have the 30mm or 24mm dimension which I believe is the depth therefor they will be an exact fit with no room on the threads for #5, unless these measurements are the diameter of the hole not the depth of all the threads? I hope the chain alignment is still possible!
No, all the adpters have 30mm threads or 24tpi threads.. :? ..as about depths, they start from an 1/2" to 1" I belive. what is the available space there?
draw your new jackshaft on a paper and put all the important quotes in there (I.E. the chainline inputs and output, the pivot bearing quotes, the space in radius or diameter or teeth for each sprocket position and so on) as an example you shoud be able to put a 3 prong cog or even a threaded track cog over that: http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1865 with a lockring and a freewheel. the whole assembly would be 20mm on the shaft and some 25-30mm with the outboard section of the freewheel.
To maintain the right chainlines is the main challenge. draw that sketch of the shaft with quotes buy a 50$ of parts from staton and you will be able to figure everything out right.

The works needed eventually in this scenario (step down a 1/2 shaft to 12 and 11mm. bore a solid adapter or enlarge a 11mm bore to 12mm, as well as flat the shaft ends or arrange a keyway assembly are very minor and cheap works compared to other options.

OMG :shock: :shock: Now I start to think that the paypal donation was not a so bad idea :mrgreen:

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 10 2017 9:54am
by steven.b.watts
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:Yeah... not much room at all... a belt would be nice but there's hardly any room in there for anything. Doesn't look like there are any active members on here that can chip in about the belt :( What if I make 1 smaller to get the necessary reduction?
You will not get any reduction until #1 is bigger than #2
11:11= 1:1 you actually have 14 to 11 that is the opposite of a speed reduction.
Okay, if I cannot make #2 14t then I will make #1 11t. Just need to take some measurements when I get my frame back from the shop today or tomorrow. Needed headset adapter, rear shock service and rear wheel build.
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:I wonder how I could figure out my true IGH gear ratio. I don't think I got any paperwork with it but i'll double check.
Do your search with your code and pictures, it shouldn't be that hard having the product in hands, Y. of production could be the key.
Another way, at least to be sure which is the 1:1 gear, is to drive the wheel 1:1 and count the turns of the wheel in each gear for each driving sprocket (crank or whatever) turn. when this ratio is 1:1 you've found the 1:1 gear. Apparently this could be enough to determine your IGH ratios.
On the to do list.
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:I am looking at the staton adapters and really wish there were ones that were pre drilled at 12mm so I didn't have to pay to get them fabricated. As per your recommendation, I'll get the jack shaft and all these confusing adapters sorted before I order the motor.
yes, these are really cheap parts compared to the funds needed for a motor or a belt stage. so buy some of them and start to play with them in your hands, and positioning them with the frame you could get a better idea of what are you needs for a second order if they are not ok.
I have an order made up now. I'm just waiting on an email back from them as they do not have a 18t, 17t or 16t 24tpi threaded track cog in stock. If they're not getting them in soon i'll order one from ebay and order everything else from staton but if they're getting them in soon i'll wait and order everything as a package.
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:I think I need LH I just want to double check? The only reason I ask is because you said something about having the option to use a RH one flipped over a staton adapter.
Yes it could be done. a standard rh freewheel is meant to be screwed over rh threads from right as driven, and from left as driver. So a rh thread adapter, that most cases has threads not going over the full depth, is meant to be mounted accordingly. However If you screw-on a freewheel over an adptor and mount the whole assembly flipped over the jackshaft's end, so with the removal slots of the freewheel facing the frame,, you obtain a freewheel working the opposite of the original mean. (so an RH unit working as LH and vice-versa).
Ah I see. Well i'll stick with LH where needed if possible :p
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote: I don't think I need to order from China to get 14t freewheel for #7:
You should if the adapter is 1.37x24tpi. standard units here start at 16t
you shouldn't if you use a metric 30mmx1mm threaded adapter.
I'll just get a 16t 24tpi from staton for now and deal with that later. If the pedal cadence is shit i'll have to order the chinese 14t and give it a shot.
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:Or turn it down to 11mm and use one of these so I don't have to pay to get the no hole adapter bored out to 12mm?
This could be a possibility, You should rectify that jackshaft down 2 times, so it will be 1/2" one end, 12mm middle where the 12mmID bearings are, and 11mm the other end.....12mm is stronger than 11mm, though.....
Yeah, 11mm probably isn't a great idea. maybe I can try it and if it doesn't work I can grab the solid one and have it rectified.

I'm a little concerned that, since the biggest 11mm adapter they have is just under an inch wide it won't have enough room for the track cog and the freewheel. I'm waiting on emails back from bmx shops about the width of the freewheel. Amazon is the only one with product dimensions info and it says 0.5". that would be awesome because it would leave enough room for the track cog but I think it might be an estimate since 0.5" is quite thin. Excited to see what the bmx shops tell me. If the freewheel is too wide I may have to get one os statons wider adapter and they don't come in 11mm. The smallest one they have is 17mm so the system might have to work the opposite way where as the right side is 17mm, tapers down to 12mm and the left side is 11mm adapter or solid adapter made to 12mm. If this is the route I am forced to go the silver lining would be that the 17mm long adapter is dual thread, with a 24tpi for the track cog and a smaller part on the end 30 tpi for the 14t freewheel, and plenty of extra room for chain line alignment.
panurge wrote:
steven.b.watts wrote:m honestly not sure if the adapter will leave room for #5 and #7 because the freewheels and adapters all have the 30mm or 24mm dimension which I believe is the depth therefor they will be an exact fit with no room on the threads for #5, unless these measurements are the diameter of the hole not the depth of all the threads? I hope the chain alignment is still possible!
No, all the adpters have 30mm threads or 24tpi threads.. :? ..as about depths, they start from an 1/2" to 1" I belive. what is the available space there?
draw your new jackshaft on a paper and put all the important quotes in there (I.E. the chainline inputs and output, the pivot bearing quotes, the space in radius or diameter or teeth for each sprocket position and so on) as an example you shoud be able to put a 3 prong cog or even a threaded track cog over that: http://www.staton-inc.com/store/index.p ... ct&id=1865 with a lockring and a freewheel. the whole assembly would be 20mm on the shaft and some 25-30mm with the outboard section of the freewheel.
To maintain the right chainlines is the main challenge. draw that sketch of the shaft with quotes buy a 50$ of parts from staton and you will be able to figure everything out right.
I will draw the sketch as soon as I get the bike back to make some measurements!

panurge wrote: OMG :shock: :shock: Now I start to think that the paypal donation was not a so bad idea :mrgreen:
It's still an option!

I went to check out the Astro 3220 to see if I could reuse my old motor mounts and found that the mounting spot for the Astro is on the opposite side for what I need to fit my frame... :s

I also took a look at this ebike build: https://www.electricbike.com/roys-ecortina/

It seems like he's been through a lot of what i'm going through. He even tried the igh initially which, as we discussed, isn't a reliable permanent solution but i'll start with the igh for now until I can figure out how to use external sprockets with the chain redirection issue. He used the Astro 3220 and ended up switching motors to one that has the mounts I need. Good idea to learn from his lesson maybe? He also had a smaller version of my controller and upgraded to the exact same controller I have. I hate to be a copy cat but it seems like I could avoid some headaches by replicating some of what he did since I already have the controller and other similar parts. I like where I'm at right now but I am a bit worried about the motor having the mounts on the wrong side and wondering if I should choose the motor he switched to because maybe if he switched to it it means that it's better? and it would fit my frame better too so if that's the case then it
s a no brainer.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 12 2017 9:17am
by panurge
what you mean with mount on the opposite side on the motor?
A BL motor has not a "side", it can be driven CW or ACW simply swapping 2 of the 3 phases....you just need to verify that the 4 bolt holes in the Astro will match the frame mounts.

Standard 1.37x24 FW units are 14mm to 20mm wide. A 3prong cog+ a thread-on freewheel over the same steel adapter could be the easier way to go. If you look at the description of the 11mm ID adapter I posted before they claim you can use a 3 prong+FW or a track cog+ spacer+ FW over there.

You can also bore the 11mm ID adapter to 12mm ID that's an option.

Remember, 12, 13 or 16t does not matter a lot. this bike, in this configuration, will not be pedal-able in any case. just to be clear. You should get an high speed internally geared Crank to get decent cadence.

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 12 2017 11:03am
by steven.b.watts
What I mean by the opposite side:
On my old motor one side is for the mount mount one side is for the 14t cog (#1). On the Astro, they're both on the same side... the side they mount it to has to also have #1 cog, which is not how my frame was engineered.

Awesome! That's a huge relief. I'll buy those then. I didn't see how a 3 prong cog would be stationary while the jackshaft is spinning because there is nothing on the adapter for the 3 prongs to lock onto but I guess so long as the freewheel is on very tight it won't move?

Okay well I'll do what I can about the pedalling for now but I have no intention of pedalling unless the batteries die on me unexpectedly so it's not top on my list especially since it can be fixed later.

Thanks for all your help, I'll send you some $ once this beast is running! :twisted:

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 12 2017 1:39pm
by steven.b.watts
Oh I see what you mean now about the 3 prong. They have an 11mm ID adapter with 3 prong cut outs on the threads. Too bad it's in 24tpi not 30tpi, I thought I was gonna be able to get the 12t freewheel :(

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 12 2017 6:14pm
by panurge
Ok understood about the motor mount. This could be a problem indeed.
In theory You could ask Astroflight to make a motor with a protruding shaft the other side.
Generally speaking if these BL motors have a side, that's only related to eventual differences in the shaft supports.
However I would not be happy with a motor mounted like that in a bike.
In an airplane it is ok, because the motor itself is axially mounted. But horizontally mounted in a bike....mmmhh

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 12 2017 8:19pm
by steven.b.watts
Yeah :cry: I was so excited for an Astro. After looking at that build I mentioned earlier it seemed like there was a motor that outperformed the Astro though and the mount fits my frame

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 16 2017 11:44am
by steven.b.watts
I'm still not too sure why my motor blew if my reduction was okay :( really wishing I still had it right now

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 18 2017 4:26am
by steven.b.watts
Rolling!

Image

Email from Astro 8)

Image

Re: Commencal Supreme Custom Mid-Drive Build

Posted: Jul 19 2017 7:43pm
by steven.b.watts
Image

^ Just a refresher

Image

#1 #43 B 11 Tooth Sprocket 1/2" ID, 1/8" keyway, two set screws, Black Oxide

or

410 B 10 Tooth Sprocket 1/2" ID Drilled for Pinning 05-478

#2 11t sprocket 1/2" x 3/36" (already have 2)

#3 17t sprocket 1/2" x 1/8" (already have one)

#4a. 22 Tooth LEFT HAND 1.375 x 24 THREAD Freewheel Sprocket 1/2" x 1/8"

#4b. LEFT HAND Solid - No hole Adaptor .9" wide for freewheel Sprockets 16 teeth & up 1.375 x 24 TPI

#5c. Dual thread, 3 Prong 17mm ID x 1.67" long

#5d. 1-1/2" External Retaining Ring - 1.387" Free ID

#5e. 17 tooth 1/2" x 3/32" Three prong Sprocket

#5f. 1-1/2" External Retaining Ring - 1.387" Free ID

#6 24 tooth 1/2" x 1/8" Three prong Sprocket

#7 13 Tooth Freewheel Sprocket 1/2" x 1/8" Flip Flop ODYSSEY Brand 30mm x 1.0 RH

#8 I can fit up to 26t here but it has to be 1.375x24tpi and 1/2"x3/32" or 1/2"x1/8". This is the biggest one I could find from Staton Inc.: 19 Tooth ½” x 3/32” Track Cog - Sprocket with 1.37“ x 24 tpi ID threads

I really needed that small freewheel @ #7 for pedal cadence and everything under 16t was 30mmx1.0 so I had to get some sort of adapter that had 30mmx1.0 but also had 1.375x24tpi because I couldn't find anything like a 17t sprocket at 30mmx1.0. It turns out the dual threaded adapter was the perfect size in length (1.67"). The one with the smallest ID they carry is listed above at 17mm so the left side of the jack shaft will have to be the side that has 12mm ID. I figured this is best anyways since the right side has the force from my leg - should probably be the thicker side anyways (considering the fact that when I got the bike from the original owner there was a jackshaft with a small ID on the right and the tip was snapped off from pedaling).