BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

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BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by JayCee » Mar 27 2016 12:14pm

I recently started looking into DIY e-bikes, and I've decided to build a mountain e-bike for trail riding. I'm far more a dirt biker than a bicyclist, so I'm looking for ample power - not exactly looking to pedal, but the thought of what amounts to a 50 pound dirt bike just seems like a real hoot. I'm 99% settled on a mid-drive, and I bought a new 29er mtn bike (529ht) for the project, but can't decide between the Bafang or Cyclone platforms for the conversion. I like the apparent cleanliness and compact size of the BBSHD, but it is expensive. I like the lower price and available power of the Cyclone setup, but I do worry about the bike's drivetrain being able to hold up under the strain of 3kW - is that a real issue? For the Bafang, is 1kW enough to do the job? Our local terrain is pretty rugged and rocky with many short but steep elevation changes. How nasty is the install of the Cyclone kits? The generic Chinese controller is an eyesore and appears a wiring nightmare.

Along with the above, I'd like to hear about any other pros or cons with either setup from anyone who has experience with them. Any ideas for other viable options would also be appreciated.

Thanks - JayC

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by rs4race » Mar 27 2016 1:45pm

I would do the 3kw. I have the bbshd on a road bike. It seems really held back to save the controller, which means it lacks any form of punch. It has a sizable deadband on the throttle and even if you punch it the power wont kick in until you get some rpm's built up. Think of turbo lag..

I still have some research to do, but I was thinking of a cyclone or custom mid drive for my next bike, which will be a full suspension mountain bike. It seems you can save some weight and get better power with the cyclone, its just not as clean.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 27 2016 2:02pm

If you are coming from a dirt bike background I agree that the Cyclone is a better choice. The noise while similar to a 2-stroke howl, is much quieter and the aggressive programming along with twice the power of the BBSHD make it similar to a dirt bike while being a lower powered riding experience. I do feel that the BBSHD will eventually reprogrammed for more power and better feel in a year or so, but it will always be closer to a bicycling experience than a motorbike one. Just be prepared to upgrade the weak links in your entire drivetrain as they are exposed to that power and shockloads. Nothing wrong with that, but be prepared for it in the total budget.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by rideabike » Mar 27 2016 4:13pm

I'm trying to decide between the Cyclone 3000w and the BBSHD for the same reasons as the OP. I just found out that i can gear the BBSHD for more torque by putting a mighty mini 30t chainring on the bafang! I don't care to go over 15mph. all steep hills and trails for me. No paved roads. I'm still trying to get an idea how hard a Cyclone 3000w mid-drive kit would be to put on a Gravity Deadeye fb.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by SlowCo » Mar 27 2016 4:56pm


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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Mar 27 2016 5:23pm

The Cyclone needs a torque throttle controller. With the PWM throttle the jerking torque peaks are hard on the drivetrain. If you make a mistake with the throttle and gearshift you may have a long walk home.

To be motorbike like the mid drive should deliver power to the rear wheel without traversing the bike's gearing. Use stronger chains and cogs.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 27 2016 10:43pm

rideabike wrote:I'm trying to decide between the Cyclone 3000w and the BBSHD for the same reasons as the OP. I just found out that i can gear the BBSHD for more torque by putting a mighty mini 30t chainring on the bafang! I don't care to go over 15mph. all steep hills and trails for me. No paved roads. I'm still trying to get an idea how hard a Cyclone 3000w mid-drive kit would be to put on a Gravity Deadeye fb.
I don't think it would be difficult to put a Cyclone on a Deadeye, but having installed two BBSHDs on Deadeyes, I have to say they are dead simple to install and are a direct bolt-on to the Deadeye. I run 30t chainwheels with IGHs on them: one a Nexus 3 and the other a Sturmey Archer 5-speed.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by rick (nova scotia) » Mar 28 2016 12:35am

I guess power means many different things to different people.
If your coming from the MX world with no intentions of pedaling, expect to pop wheelies, throw rooster tails, better stick with the two strokes. You did say you thought a "50 pound dirt bike" would be fun.

Well even the 3Kw will probably be a big disappointment to you, for it's nothing compared to even an 80cc MX.

That said these are bicycle kits, and I find my 500 w (800 max watt) mid drive is very powerful, takes me up hills way faster than I could on my own.

So again power means different things to different people, but I would think the BBSHD would be lots of power, and that the cyclone, would be putting 10X the stress on the chain it was designed for, better carry a spare.

Just one opinion, and to each their own.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by JayCee » Mar 29 2016 12:35pm

rick (nova scotia) wrote:I guess power means many different things to different people.
If your coming from the MX world with no intentions of pedaling, expect to pop wheelies, throw rooster tails, better stick with the two strokes. You did say you thought a "50 pound dirt bike" would be fun.
I dig that, but the important thing here is that I can't ride my CR125 to work if I want. I own a tight woods bike/ATV trail network that is very steep and rugged - I could never ride a mountain bike through there at my advanced age and anti-advanced state of body tune. :) I'm convinced it'll be a ton of fun though, almost regardless of power level, assuming there's at least enough to climb the frequent 30-degree grades.

I read into that other link, and I really like that Tangent machine, but it's f'n expensive (too much for me). I'm leaning toward the Cyclone, but I think a redesigned custom mounting system might be necessary - stock setup looks flimsy as it stands. The generic Chinese e-bay controller is what really worries me, along with the utter lack of documentation on how to hook such things up - sure seems to be a LOT of wires coming in/out of those controllers... How sophisticated are the controllers? Are they any good? I've also toyed with the idea of a super-budget build using Lead-Acid and an e-bay hub-motor-wheel kit, just to get my feet wet.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Mar 29 2016 12:54pm

Lead acid is basically a waste of money, unfortunately. It just cannot handle the current demands in a bicycle compatible package, so you end up trashing them very quickly and wasting the investment.

Buy a decent lithium ebike battery, but make sure it can handle the range of things you want to experiment with, especially in the current delivery specification. 48 or 52 volts at 30 or 40 amps will give you a lot of flexibility, but if you want full power from the Cyclone it would take 60 amps. Figure around a half amp hour per mile of range (25 watt hours per mile). That's ballpark, easy riding will go farther and hard will go less. The Cyclone is a good cheap motor to experiment with. The wires can be sorted out, yes there are a lot, but they are that way for a reason. The low cost controllers work, and are easy enough to change if you want to upgrade. Very few of the wires are optional.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by 1KW » Apr 01 2016 10:08am

From my research the cyclone 3kw will leave the bbshd way behind you. I would love to see a comparison ride video or something. My only concern is cyclone 3kw weak mounting bracket , and the wh/mi vs bbshd.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 01 2016 1:57pm

It also depends on whether you want something to install and ride, or something to fiddle with.

One fellow I know bought a Cyclone, and with all the bits and pieces and weak brackets and wires, it is a never ending project. The BBSHD bolts on and done.

If you are going to race the extra power could be useful. But it won't be enough.

If you want to ride with other bikes or on bike paths the BBSHD will quietly and stealthily move along. 1500W isn't racing power, but it won't attract unwanted attention. The Cyclone just might.

Most of the time, with either the BBSHD or the Cyclone you won't be using over 750W. So the only difference will be the noise. Do you like noise?

During hard acceleration the Cyclone will be a bit faster. But the guys with big MXUS and Cromotors will blow on by. Do you care?

It all depends on what you want.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by cwah » Apr 02 2016 12:53am

Apparently cyclone can have as much torque as cromotor from a member who had both
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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 02 2016 4:43am

cwah wrote:Apparently cyclone can have as much torque as cromotor from a member who had both
Comparing motors is tricky, but if you put 10kw into a Cyclone (like you can with a Cromotor) you'll almost certainly blow out the chain, cassette or freewheel, and if none of the external parts fail the internal Cyclone parts may not be up to that torque level.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by cwah » Apr 02 2016 10:14am

No he had similar torque with a cyclone at 3kw to a cromotor at 9KW
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 02 2016 8:55pm

Not with same top speed. Do the math.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by TorEddy » Apr 03 2016 2:57am

With my experience from the LR GNG, I'm not going the route with chain driven cranks again. The twisting action from the chain on the mounting brackets, makes it hard to make a solid enough motor mount. I'm going with BBSHD and Adaptto mini-e controller at 2 - 2,5KW. I think the 3K Cyklone looks nice, but it reminds me too much of the GNG, and I want something more solid. With more power comes more wear and tear, and you also need more battery to maintain the same range, which also means more weight.
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My 2nd Ride - BBSHD NS Bikes : viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by 1KW » Apr 06 2016 2:26pm

Anybody know the efficiency between both setups..wh/mi? That will be a larger player perhaps. Yes they both can go <35mph however which one can do it with less juice.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 06 2016 3:05pm

1KW wrote:Anybody know the efficiency between both setups..wh/mi? That will be a larger player perhaps. Yes they both can go <35mph however which one can do it with less juice.
I don't think the difference in efficiency between the motor kits is all that much. Aerodynamics, Tires, Rider size and weight are going to be larger factors.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by sather » Apr 10 2016 8:49am

I own both the Cyclone 3000 and BBSHD. So here is my two cents:

BBSHD advantages:
1. Stealth
2. Cleaner looking install, no exposed controller and wires
3. Much quieter
4. Easier install, especially on 100mm bottom bracket
5. Less likely to provoke law enforcement.

Cyclone advantages:
1. Double the power
2. One half the price: $400 vs. $800 (w/Luna chainring)
3. Double and Triple chainrings are easy
4. Better chainline, especially with double chainrings
5. Simpler to repair and replace parts
6. Many more chainring sizes available (24tooth to 48tooth), chainrings are inexpensive
7. Can use 60 volts (and higher) battery.

Cyclone owners say the motor will quiet down after a few weeks. I've had mine for three weeks and it's still much louder than the BBSHD. Some Cyclone owners using over 60 volts are reporting bent motor brackets. If you start doing wheelies with 60 volts or more, you are going to break chains and bend things.
There is no comparison between the top speeds using the same 52 volt battery. The Cyclone is much faster.

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***Some BAFANG questions*** (Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?)

Post by JayCee » Apr 11 2016 2:24pm

sather wrote:I own both the Cyclone 3000 and BBSHD. So here is my two cents:
I really want the Cyclone for the power, but I'm now leaning heavily toward the Bafang, simply because I think they is a much greater chance of ending up with a rideable machine after dropping $1400 extra dollars. I hate the thought of spending more money for a wimpier machine (that's what keeps me from buying Apple products) but being that the Cyclones seem more like individual science and mechanical engineering projects, I could definitely see myself needing parts a couple of times or not being able to figure something out or having something simply not work - then getting frustrated and losing interest or getting sidetracked into another project, then ending up having a pile of junk end up in the corner of the garage for 10 years, wasting both the electric gizzies and the bike. The Bafang would almost certainly be up and running in a day.

I'm curious - a Bafang motor with accessories and battery is going to be no less than $1400 from Luna. With the $400 I have into a bike (Motobecane 529ht 29er mountain bike from bikesdirect.com), will I end up with something considerably better than I can buy for $1800-2000? What am I really saving over a comparable-performance turnkey bike? I haven't done much shopping for factory e-bikes.

What REALLY is the difference between the BBSHD and the newer BBS02 (with upgraded controller), other than $200? Where's the extra power come from? Are the motors identical? Write ups say that the "whole thing" has been improved for the HD, but nobody gives any real details, and I've been in industry long enough to know better. Lastly, I've been planning on doing a 48V system - should I consider 52V, and whats the best bang for the buck battery - again, the pros n cons of various options are not well described, at least on Luna's site.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 11 2016 3:26pm

It's the Motor.

The BBSHD has a few more pounds (3 as I recall). Most of that is in the motor.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 11 2016 3:30pm

48 vs 52 V

The display will work correctly with 48V for battery status. With 52V the display will indicate the battery is full until near the end, so you will have little warning before running out of juice. A secondary display, or perhaps the new display with adjustable voltage mode will solve this.

52V will provide higher RPM (cadence), higher power and higher top speed by approximately 10%. If the batteries have the same amp hour rating they will provide 10% more range, and they will weigh a bit less than 10% more since the case overhead swamps that a bit.

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by JayCee » Apr 11 2016 3:51pm

Thanks Alan - so the motor is bigger in the HD. That's good.

Look at this - I don't think I could build these bikes for much less than this - might even be more. This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder what the H I'm doing.

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Mountain ... B01A808XS2
http://www.amazon.com/Onway-Electric-Bi ... B0147W4160

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Re: BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?

Post by Alan B » Apr 11 2016 5:09pm

I think you can buy a bike that is more nicely integrated than you can readily build. One thing to look at is how are they making a profit? By using cheaper bike parts? Cheaper motor setup? Charging a premium price for the package? We have seen many combinations.

I think you will give up a lot, though, in power and flexibility at the same price point. If you look at each component in the bike, there is a wide range of quality and price. Luna kit and battery prices are very aggressive. Some vendors were charging almost double just for the kits. Plus a bike.

I can't say what is best for you. I do know folks who have fairly expensive commercial ebikes, and they don't generally compete with things folks have built here on ES in terms of power, speed and range. They are very pretty. Look at battery capacity and replacement costs. Are you locked into their battery system?

Their displays rarely have the information available from a Cycle Analyst. If you are interested in that it could be important.

There are some commmercial bikes that you just can't easily build. Expect to pay for it though.

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