New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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squee22   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » May 20 2017 5:59am

My only issue with the design and install relates to getting the rear derailleur cable to travel under the bottom bracket. There is no longer a gap that can fit the cable guide, so I just removed it and the cable now sits right up against the bracket frame. It works just fine, as it scrapes away at the paint (and aluminum?) along the undersurface. I see no solution to this on my frame.
I think I have a solution to your problem. On my Bike the bolt that goes vertically through the kickstand hole simply did not line up (I installed this on a folding bike). The motor was instead pushed up against the frame as far as it will go forward. when the motor rotates it will push tight against the front of the frame so I put a piece of foam between the motor and the frame. Works great.

To fix your cable problem do something similar but build a cable guide out of something like wood or aluminum for your motor to rest against. and clamp that to the tube.


Alternatively you could simply reroute the cable elsewhere.

Good luck.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » May 20 2017 1:26pm

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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

Triketech   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » May 20 2017 4:06pm

36V 350 watt with VLCD5 mounted on an HPV trike.

@ 11 miles in a gear tick; 10 ticks/crank rev, only when motor is driving.

Opened case and inspected secondary reduction gears. Driver gear has 10 teeth. Inspected teeth pretty closely, particularly drive side of the contact surfaces. Looks OK.

Anyone else seen/heard this sound?

BTW, they use very low angle gear, 10-12° working angle making them very noisy. A higher working angle like 16° would cut the noise in half with a slightly reduced shear strength and abut 30° less wear.

I got this drive from the Tongsheng factory to review.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » May 20 2017 7:57pm

LBS finished install on the Wild One this morning. HIGO extension cable for the speed sensor is on order. In the interim a magnet has been taped to the right crank arm and the sensor to the front DER post. Readings not accurate, but it's transmitting to the controller, and speed and distance is recording.

The motor snugged up on the top side of the boom against the DER post. Had to move the XH18 controller to the top of the steering bar, and it's still hard to read. May have to add a "steer horn" to it go get the controller in a horizontal position.

All that glitters is not gold. I'm getting no boost . I've read some posts about having to put a band around the boom to prevent motor movement, I think. Since my motor is snug against the DER post and can't move the installer didn't add one. My analysis is that no torque is being read. The motor did judder a bit when I backpedaled once. Does anything have to be "fixed" to get the torque sensor to work? I see a small black tab with about a 5/16 hole adjacent to the motor bolt. Does it have a function? It's not fixed to anything.

Don't know how torque is sensed. Is it internal, or external?

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » May 20 2017 11:11pm

Any pictures of the higo cables/connectors used, please?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » May 21 2017 2:09pm

HIGO-connectors-on-tsdz2-plug.jpg
HIGO-connectors-on-tsdz2-plug.jpg (55.24 KiB) Viewed 4493 times
HIGO photos, copied from bentrider, where it was copied from somewhere on endlesssphere! The connectors are about the diameter of a pencil.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » May 21 2017 7:39pm

I have been told that torque sensing is internal. The controller to motor, and speed sensor to motor cables and connectors came with the TSDZ2. They are HIGO and I have disconnected and reconnected - still no assist. I have adjusted the wheel size from 05 to 32 with no change. All settings on the controller respond to inputs.

My "walk mode" works, but at only about 2mph. I'm not getting any boost at any torque level. The only wire that is not part of the system is the power wire from the battery to the motor. Both connections were made with XT60 connectors. Obviously power gets to the motor as the walk mode functions. Just not getting any torque response. Both controller and charger show battery as fully charged.

Since the walk mode works it appears I may have a bad board in the motor, or a bad connection somewhere. Bummer as I'm starting summer travels in our motor home on Tuesday. My LBS is closed Monday, and this is the first torque sense motor he's ever installed. Very outside chance that when I get the HIGO extension cable for the speed sensor and move it to the rear wheel the torque sensor may activate. As I'm lying to the motor now with the speed sensor on the crank I should get a response, if perhaps an inaccurate one. I hear no sound from the motor, and the motor is cool to the touch.

Any suggestions on what to try.

mscoot   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » May 22 2017 3:27am

itchyfoot42 wrote:I have been told that torque sensing is internal. The controller to motor, and speed sensor to motor cables and connectors came with the TSDZ2. They are HIGO and I have disconnected and reconnected - still no assist. I have adjusted the wheel size from 05 to 32 with no change. All settings on the controller respond to inputs.

My "walk mode" works, but at only about 2mph. I'm not getting any boost at any torque level. The only wire that is not part of the system is the power wire from the battery to the motor. Both connections were made with XT60 connectors. Obviously power gets to the motor as the walk mode functions. Just not getting any torque response. Both controller and charger show battery as fully charged.

Since the walk mode works it appears I may have a bad board in the motor, or a bad connection somewhere. Bummer as I'm starting summer travels in our motor home on Tuesday. My LBS is closed Monday, and this is the first torque sense motor he's ever installed. Very outside chance that when I get the HIGO extension cable for the speed sensor and move it to the rear wheel the torque sensor may activate. As I'm lying to the motor now with the speed sensor on the crank I should get a response, if perhaps an inaccurate one. I hear no sound from the motor, and the motor is cool to the touch.

Any suggestions on what to try.
What do you mean by not getting any boost? It is not like it will push you forward at warp speed the moment you push hard on the pedals. The torque sensor is very subtle. It somehow measures the flex in the tube surrounding the axle and adds a little less power or a little more power depending on how hard you push.

If you browse this thread back to the start I think you might find a picture of it. In my experience you should be able to feel the difference between moderate to light pedalling and very light pedaling. Try that in assist level 4 and keep your candence about the same every time. Is there a difference? There should be a slight difference.
On the other hand, for me there would be no difference between heavy pedaling and riding out of the saddle even though the torque I put in my self while standing up would be a lot higher than just sitting down.

Taking out the torque sensor is a simple job. After taking off the pedals and the chainring, you need a pair of circlip pliers and a rubber mallet to wack the crank-axle out from the left side. The axle and the torque sensor will then pop out. Three small springs pushing the cadence sensor against the torque sensor will also fall out, so be sure to grab those before they disappear. Its a little more tricky to put it back together again, but a dab of grease on each of those springs should hold them in place when you push everything back into place.

See those two screws in the picture below? I think they might allow some sort of adjustment of the torque sensor. Mine works fine, so I left them the way they where, but perhaps you could try and see if it makes any difference?
Image

mscoot   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » May 22 2017 3:33am

Oh, and the walk assist is really pointless.
It's supposed to do 6 km/h, but cuts out at 3-4 km/h, and whenever there's even the slightest incline the motor stalls. My bike is heavy, but it is still easier to push it along than to rely on the walk assist for anything. It won't even push my unloaded bike over a 5 cm high kerb.

atomohodez   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by atomohodez » May 22 2017 3:40am

Hello! People help please find the bronze gear from the site future-bike.it
They have no delivery to Russia (((
Can anyone know where to buy with delivery to Russia?
I will be very grateful!
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Valld   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Valld » May 22 2017 4:42am

Can someone please measure what is the maximum thickness of the bottom bracket to allow installation of this motor? I want to install it on a carbon frame and the BB wall on carbon frames is thicker than aluminum and SS.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » May 22 2017 8:38am

mscoot, my walk mode performs just like yours. My trike is also heavy and stalls on a slight incline. I only used the walk mode to validate that power was getting to the motor, and that the motor responded to power.

At any power setting the motor makes no noise. I have a NuVinci so can start out at a very low Gear Inch and slowly shift to higher, and harder to pedal range. I get no assist at any point. My max pedal effort only reaches 15 mph with boost set at 4, which is what it is if I turn the motor off.

Thanks for the photo of the torque sensor, and the explanation of removal. Will probably help others, but if I got the sensor removed I would not know how to fix it. No dealer or other support system yet. Looks like I've just encountered the joys of being an early adopter, and China quality control. Attempting to negotiate a replacement, while I'm traveling for the next 5 months, will certainly be another not-favorite memory.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » May 22 2017 11:31am

itchyfoot42 wrote:
HIGO-connectors-on-tsdz2-plug.jpg
HIGO photos, copied from bentrider, where it was copied from somewhere on endlesssphere! The connectors are about the diameter of a pencil.
I can't find a Higo like it...

http://www.higoconnector.com/products?page=1
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

mlongpine   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mlongpine » May 22 2017 11:53am

itchyfoot42 wrote:I'll be pairing it with a 52 Volt L-ion battery which has been shipped from Luna Cycles.
Sorry to hear that you are having issues itchyfoot42, I was waiting to hear if a 52V 14S battery worked with the 48V version as I already have a 14S battery.
itchyfoot42 wrote:I believe the throttle is only available with the larger display, which has 3 USB ports. The XH18 controller has no port for a throttle, or at least I haven't found one on mine.


I had found this video on and apparently some dealers can make the throttle work with either display. It is hard to see exactly how it's hooked up but looks like throttle wire plugs into the harness with a Y adapter possibly. I would really like to get one of these with a throttle and the display with the functionality shown in the video, but the more people you hear having problems, the less appealing it is.
The just announced TDSZ3 specifically says it is designed to require rider effort. Naturally it becomes available I'm having my LBS install my Z2.
From what I've seen the Z3 is a built into the frame sort of like a Bosch or Shimano STePS, it looks like the frame would have to be built to accommodate it, instead of installing on a standard bottom bracket.

mscoot   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » May 22 2017 1:25pm

itchyfoot42 wrote:mscoot, my walk mode performs just like yours. My trike is also heavy and stalls on a slight incline. I only used the walk mode to validate that power was getting to the motor, and that the motor responded to power.

At any power setting the motor makes no noise. I have a NuVinci so can start out at a very low Gear Inch and slowly shift to higher, and harder to pedal range. I get no assist at any point. My max pedal effort only reaches 15 mph with boost set at 4, which is what it is if I turn the motor off.

Thanks for the photo of the torque sensor, and the explanation of removal. Will probably help others, but if I got the sensor removed I would not know how to fix it. No dealer or other support system yet. Looks like I've just encountered the joys of being an early adopter, and China quality control. Attempting to negotiate a replacement, while I'm traveling for the next 5 months, will certainly be another not-favorite memory.
Right, so you really have no assist at all. That's interesting.

See the brown and black ring next to the torque sensor? That's the connection between the torque sensor and the rest of the electronics elsewhere in the motor. It is also the cadence sensor. That ring mates with a similar ring on the rest of the motor.
I'm just guessing now, but if that connection isn't good (as if those small springs I told you about where not there for instance) I'd suppose it could act like yours. For the walk assist to turn the wheel it doesn't care about the torque or cadence sensor.

Open it up and have a look. You don't have to crack open the bottom lump with the warranty sticker. Just remove the circlips and wack it out to see.

Hickory   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hickory » May 22 2017 2:09pm

Itchyfoot- got any photos of your mount? That may help.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 23 2017 5:39am

Sadly the 48volt 500W versions will not run on 52volt battery packs. Tried my new unit on my existing fully charged 14S battery, the display works fine but the motor itself will not operate. I put my variable bench supply on and it will operate up to about 54.6 volts which is the near enough top voltage on a fully charged 13S pack. It is really close and a little worried that a fully charged battery may just kick the motor into self protection mode.

Bit of a pain as all my packs are 14S units, anybody with any ideas how to get around this.

Regards.

squee22   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » May 23 2017 6:40pm

re: Waynemarlow

Install a cct that limits the voltage to 54 volts or so, using a buck converter. Essentially the cct will only let the motor only ever see 54 volts or less. You will lose some efficiency though and should have a means to disconnect the buck converter when not using it to reduce current drain. A toggle switch should do the trick.

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » May 23 2017 8:28pm

Jeebus, all this clamoring for 52V, when the amps are limited and 52V is ZERO gain over the 48V. SILLY!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by atomohodez » May 24 2017 3:10am

So does lifepo4 48v 16S not work? There's a voltage of 57.6v!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » May 24 2017 4:02am

tomjasz wrote:Jeebus, all this clamoring for 52V, when the amps are limited and 52V is ZERO gain over the 48V. SILLY!
Not so silly, imo. I tried an 39.6v 11s battery on my 36v motor to see if I could increase the rpm of the motor. It was absolutely useful in the sense that I could have assist at a higher cadence. The main issue I have with this motor is that with a 36v 10s battery rpm of the motor is too low to assist me when pedaling fast. It starts to lay off at around 75-80 rpm with the 36v battery. 39.6v lets me pedal all the way up to 90-ish rpm. A subtle, but noticable difference.

The higher voltage produced less motor-noise and a more natural assist. It's more than powerful enough for me even though I regularily haul up to 100 kg of extra stuff on my cargo bike.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 24 2017 7:49am

Yes the higher Cadence is one of the things I had been aiming for. Being a mtb rider its very apparent on the BBS02 engine that my normal cadence is higher than even the 52volts and programming will allow. Its a matter though of re learning a bit and modifying my riding style so its not too big a thing.

mlongpine   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mlongpine » May 24 2017 9:40am

tomjasz wrote:Jeebus, all this clamoring for 52V, when the amps are limited and 52V is ZERO gain over the 48V. SILLY!
Really, "ZERO gain"?
  • Higher cadence that will benefit those who like to spin faster
  • More power at that higher cadence VoltsxAmps=Watts
  • Most importantly in my opinion is nearly everyone that has asked about it already owns a 52V 14S battery (myself included) and would like to use it instead of purchasing another, so $$$ gained
Amp limit means the acceleration should be nearly identical, but lots of people that buy this kit sound like they just want a little boost and like the feel of the torque sensor.

Waynemarlow wrote:Sadly the 48volt 500W versions will not run on 52volt battery packs. Tried my new unit on my existing fully charged 14S battery, the display works fine but the motor itself will not operate. I put my variable bench supply on and it will operate up to about 54.6 volts which is the near enough top voltage on a fully charged 13S pack. It is really close and a little worried that a fully charged battery may just kick the motor into self protection mode.

Bit of a pain as all my packs are 14S units, anybody with any ideas how to get around this.

Regards.
Where did you buy your kit from? Could you share a link?

It sounds like Itchyfoot42 got his to spin in walk mode on 14S but it wouldn't work when pedaling. Wondering if the walk mode somehow bypasses the voltage cut? I wouldn't think so but guess it could be depending on how it's built.
Last edited by mlongpine on May 24 2017 12:16pm, edited 1 time in total.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » May 24 2017 10:05am

Waynemarlow has raised a critical issue with the 48V TSDZ2 motor. Does it have some sort of "protect mode" in the controller or motor to prevent operation above a set voltage? I have the same setup: 48v TSDZ2 motor from auto-ebike, 52V Panasonic bottle battery from Luna Cycles, and no assist. I had assumed a bad torque controller as the motor works in "walk mode". Everything on the controller sets up correctly. I have the XH18 controller. My battery is fully charged.

Luna Cycles has an informative section of their website. The battery section recommends the 52V battery for 48V systems. Their reasoning is that a much longer battery life would be achieved by charging to 90% after the first few full charges to condition the battery. If a fully charged 52V battery does not work for the TSDZ48V systems that info is critical to new buyers!

squee22   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » May 24 2017 10:21am

walk assist/6km mode.
Not all that usefull but good for help when pushing the bike up a hill. Really you need to be pushing the bike. this just makes the bike lighter - but like the pedal assist this motor does not meant to do all the work on it's own. You are expected to help with the pushing so it won't burn out on the hills. I have used it twice in the first week riding, pushing the bike up hill and although I am moving a bit slower - I am much less tired at the top.

People that think the system is underpowered
This kit works off the torque sensor and as such your gearing is very important. if your gear ratio is low you won't be able to apply torque at higher speeds and the motor will see no input as you pedal. Best way to fix this is to put a bigger gear on the front. My system is on a 20 inch wheel folding bike and I'm running a 52 on the front, and a 17 on the back with a nexus 7 shifter. I plan to change the back to 16 too.

Instead of messing with the motor, significantly alter the gearing on your bike to increase the loading of your pedals - increasing the torque - and thereby increasing the input to the motor control system (the torque sensor)

A software solution has yet to be produced as there is no way for a consumer to reprogram these that has been proven safe. A hardware sollution might be there with a throttle but again that seems to be a bit in beta by the sounds of things. Using the existing hardware on the bike the best idea is to simply up the gearing as the torque you are able to provide at the pedals is the only input to turn the motor on and off you have.

as the bike gets faster your legs have to too... the human limit sets the speed limit on your rig - not the motor or any of that jazz.

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