New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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mscoot   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Aug 18 2017 7:37am

RTIII wrote:
Triketech wrote:I've been watching this topic a long time.

Last spring I ordered one from the factory, and made it clear I would be publishing an article about it.
(BTW, it was supposed to have 1M cables but came with short std cables, and built 3 days after the order.)

Summarizing what I've learned:

Tongsheng probably released the product a bit prematurely. Over time changes for cost & reliability while increasing power levels probably introduced a few new parts and software updates.

Early motors tended to make little gear noise, but louder motor noise typical of a Trapezoidal controller. Later motors tend to make loud gear noise, and less motor noise - although that may be masked by the gear noise. I haven't looked at the earlier versions, but on the one that was build for me last April (factory order) the secondary gear set (steel spur gears) have a Pressure Angle (PA) of about 12°, which is way, way wrong for this application; 20-22°. Low PA makes a stout tooth, and a lot of banging and sliding through the contact. Grease is the WRONG lube for this gear angle, needs to be a medium weight gear oil 75W. Teeth were formed on a shaper, and looking at the teeth at about 20X, an experienced eye can see burrs from a dull tool running too deep a cut on each chop.

If they all used this gear design, they would all sound like mine does.
If they all used the gear design like in my unit, they would all be silent running.
Triketech wrote:Its unlikely Tongsheng makes their own gears. And when production ramps faster than Vendor A can produce components you add Vendor B. And sometimes that's a scramble for Procurement so they compromise quality for Vendor B. All hypothetical, yet the everyday life in the world of manufacturing.
It's virtually certain that they'd use a gear vendor for volume production. A far more likely scenario is that they started with gears made in house or small workshop in low volume and when the volume of production increased, they farmed it out to a vendor who makes the gears much more professionally in larger numbers, which is why the younger units are widely reported as being quiet while that can't be said for earlier units. ... A reasonable estimate based on a few known data points is that they sorted all this out in May of this year. In my view, you clearly got an older unit, before the change, and now think that applies to all their units, even current production.
Hey, Do you know which gears they started outsourcing the production of? I'd like to try replacing the gears I have with the newer ones to see if I can quiet it down a little.

My motor is from june 2016. I've already replaced that big one-way-bearing-gear after the old one failed. The old one had ball bearings, while the new one had roller bearings. There's no difference in noise levels except it's a lot noisier when I'm peddling with the motor off.

mscoot   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Aug 18 2017 7:39am

matte2k wrote:Anyone had this problem?
The "cable cover" touches the chain when using the biggest cog wheel of the 8sp casette.
If I push the cover tight to the motor by hand I get a clearence of 2-3 mm.
This is on a Bullitt.
IMG_5929.JPG
I had this when I first mounted the motor and realized I had the gear cable lodged in between the motor and the frame. Let the cable go up and over the motor (hold it while pushing the motor in) and you should be fine.

The other thing I can think og is that you haven't removed enough metal from the motorcasing to get it seated properly

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Aug 22 2017 5:45am

Has anyone yet received one the latest 18A versions and can they confirm it will run on a 14S battery ( 52V ) set up.

The question is being asked because I ride with a BBS02 750W bike equipped partner and the two are noticeably different in power outputs, to the point I have my 500W on turbo most of the ride. The lower power though is great when riding with non electric bikes where on level 2 its just about spot on.

Thanks.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 23 2017 10:20am

So where for a USA address is the best place to buy this kit? A place that is good with support.

Daytriker   10 W

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TSDZ2 Central Motor Extension Signal Cables

Post by Daytriker » Aug 23 2017 10:36am

I now have a supply of the Julet 5/6 pin extension cables in 500mm & 1000mm lengths available. Male connector at one end, female connector at the other end. Prices are $15. & $20. cdn. each plus postage. If you are installing this system on a recumbent trike you will need one of each length.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 23 2017 3:15pm

Is there any alternative mounting method to tip the drive forward and mount it to the down tube on a dual suspension bike?

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 23 2017 6:00pm

sendler2112 wrote:Is there any alternative mounting method to tip the drive forward and mount it to the down tube on a dual suspension bike?
It just really depends on your bike and what you can work up... What are you looking to put it on?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 23 2017 6:01pm

sendler2112 wrote:Is there any alternative mounting method to tip the drive forward and mount it to the down tube on a dual suspension bike?
What is the issue you are having with mounting this through your bottom bracket shell? If it is where to secure the top mounting bolt behind the down tube you may be able to mount it as it is done on the open boom of a recumbent trike.
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 23 2017 6:11pm

Immediately behind the crank is the bearing for the rear suspension. This bike never had any kind of kickstand. Plus, this is a trail bike and I can't give up any ground clearance beyond what the 44T chain ring gives. I end up clawing logs with the teeth as it is. Maybe this drive won't work for a trail bike after all. I was really hoping to get torque sensing which the Bafang does not do.

osborne4015   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by osborne4015 » Aug 23 2017 6:41pm

I have a TongSheng TSDZ2 unit on a road bike, the steel frame is about 20 years old and built for Criterium racing, i.e. short wheelbase, no room in front of the rear wheel, I fitted this unit with the motor tilted upward against the down tube, very scientific I put a piece of stir stick between the frame and motor, so it didn't transmit noise into the frame. I have a 48v 11.6AH battery that actually over charges to 54.4V. On August 13th this year I rode a charity ride of 106K, quite a hilly ride occasionally using the turbo setting on some of the steeper hills, but most of the time I just used the touring setting because I was riding with some friends, we averaged about 25kph, I had enough charge in the battery to go about another 25 to 30K
I also have a road bike with a Bafang BBSHD unit, I just go along for the ride in that bike because it will cruise at whatever level I set it to. I have no throttle on either bike, preferring to use the pedals. When I ride with the fast group in my cycling club the Bafang is a blast to ride, however I much prefer the TSDZ2 equipped bike, because it is more controllable for speed. I am 82 I had Quad bypass surgery 7.5 years ago, so I am not as fast on a bike as I used to be, these machines have really brought the fun back into cycling for me.
As the saying goes, "Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional."

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 23 2017 7:59pm

osborne4015 wrote:I have a TongSheng TSDZ2 unit on a road bike, the steel frame is about 20 years old and built for Criterium racing, i.e. short wheelbase, no room in front of the rear wheel, I fitted this unit with the motor tilted upward against the down tube,
Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear you are still riding. How did you anchor the drive to the down tube? Do the wires hang down when tilted that way? You have the 36V kit and it handles 54v hot off the charger? I have AMP20 cells for 12S packs that will be 42v hot when balanced and cut off at 36v.

osborne4015   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by osborne4015 » Aug 23 2017 10:19pm

It was a few months ago now since I fitted it to the bike, I just mounted it where it would not interfere with the rear wheel which meant that it would be inclined in front of the bottom bracket, I cut off a piece of paint stir stick and put it between the motor and frame, then cinched the lock nut really tight, I did it the old fashioned way with a big screw driver and hammer in the castellated nut, it does not move! But the BB does creak when I get out of the saddle, because there is quite a lot of clearance between the bottom bracket inside diameter and the shaft. As for the wires, yes they hang down just a little, but on a road bike it is not an issue, I can see it might be on a mountain bike. I did change the chain ring to a 50tooth CSX 11 Sram chain ring, the teeth on this chain ring protrude through the chain and makes it difficult for the chain to drop off the chain ring. I have an 11 speed cassette on the rear wheel 11-28, I do not have to resort to the 28 very often fortunately because the chain line is a little extreme.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Aug 24 2017 4:44am

sendler2112 wrote:Is there any alternative mounting method to tip the drive forward and mount it to the down tube on a dual suspension bike?
Rotating it forward actually doesn't give any further ground clearance, if you look at the shape its ovalled and when you move it around to where the Bafung normally sits, the rear part of the oval is actually lower to the ground than if set horizontal.

I was a doubter about the horizontal position but I've done nearly 300 miles on knarly off road and its not a bother, yes you may have to be a little more careful over logs, but then if you're clunking your chain ring on the logs as you're going over them then perhaps you should look at changing your technique. :)

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 24 2017 6:59pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
sendler2112 wrote:Is there any alternative mounting method to tip the drive forward and mount it to the down tube on a dual suspension bike?
Rotating it forward actually doesn't give any further ground clearance, if you look at the shape its ovalled and when you move it around to where the Bafung normally sits, the rear part of the oval is actually lower to the ground than if set horizontal.

I was a doubter about the horizontal position but I've done nearly 300 miles on knarly off road and its not a bother, yes you may have to be a little more careful over logs, but then if you're clunking your chain ring on the logs as you're going over them then perhaps you should look at changing your technique. :)
Spot on!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

OldBloke   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by OldBloke » Aug 24 2017 10:31pm

[quote="hurzhurz
I bought an extension cable for the display to cut it open and measure signals.
Here is a picture where I have marked the plug pins with wire colors according to this cable, at least purple matches with the display cable.
tsdz2-plug.jpg
[/quote]

hurzhurz,

Where did you buy the extension cable? I've been searching and haven't been able to find one.

Thanks

OB

Daytriker   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 25 2017 12:36am

OldBloke wrote:[quote="hurzhurz,

Where did you buy the extension cable? I've been searching and haven't been able to find on

OB
I originally bought my extension cables from a Canadian Supplier & because I was in a jam to get a customers trike finished, paid through the nose for them. I managed to find a Chinese distributor of the cables but they have a minimum order of 20 pieces so I ordered 10 of each length. I don't suppose I will be doing another 10 installs of this motor kit so I can sell you some cables if you need them. I am still on the fence as to whether I am happy with this system having to replace one blue gear already after the customer only rode it for 60 kms.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 25 2017 5:58am

I bought and fitted 6 weeks ago a 350W 36V motor with throttle, VLDC5 display and brakes. Fitting was straightforward except for the frame attachment but more about that later. Since then I've travelled 500miles and enjoyed it enormously. To begin with, I averaged 15mph at a range of approximately 80m from a 12,000mah battery (of my own manufacture). Terrain round here (Oxford, England) is comfortable with some hills but not serious. For the subsequent mileage the range extended to 180m per charge and the average speed dropped to 10mph which is much the speed that the bike, a Giant Cypress, achieved before the motor was fitted. That's the beauty of this motor, it is light and easy to ride just like a normal bike.

I own a BH Neo Cross (rear hub torque sensing) and a Raleigh Motus (mid-drive). Both of these bikes are heavier. The Neo needs power, always, as does the Motus. But, whereas the Neo is a joy to ride, the Motus is like shifting an anchor. One of them's going!

More on the frame attachment: this was difficult to attach. A welded pad for a bike stand which is fitted to most bikes was in a difficult but not insurmountable position. All was well until about 2 weeks ago when a slight scratching/squeaking noise was heard whenever the right hand crank was at the 4 o'clock position and only for a very short period and once per cycle. This occurs with or without power and with low to medium applied torque. Repositioning the frame attachment cured it for a short while. I can ride applying power to the left hand crank (difficult being right handed but gets easier as you get used to it) and the noise disappears completely. Auto-ebike from whom I bought the kit have been and are very supportive.

I suspect that the big gear casing to which this is attached is being slightly distorted. I've had the casing cover off, can't see anything, but I need a puller to get the gear off which I don't have. If anyone has advice to offer I would be grateful.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 25 2017 6:05am

I don't know for sure as I have limited experience with this motor but what you are describing sounds more like a Bottom Bracket noise rather than from the motor.

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extrasilver   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by extrasilver » Aug 25 2017 11:43am

so guys.. small update on the 36v 350w system with an attempt to upgrade it to the 48v 18a version

the upgraded controller arrived today but i spotted an issue right away.. the cable going from the controller to the display is thicker than the one on my 36v 16amp controller and contains an extra 2 wires

my VLC5 & xh18 displays use a small 6 pin connector same type that is uses for the speed sensor but the 48v throttle happy model uses an 8 pin. maybe this is why some people can't get a throttle to work with certain versions.

picture links below

https://ibb.co/g2mAHQ
https://ibb.co/eBeVHQ
https://ibb.co/dnP845
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.” -Jeremy Clarkson
if it has boobies or wheels.. its going to cost you money

RTIII   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 25 2017 11:49am

My new 18A "750w" TSDZ2 installation on my new Marin San Rafael has had a few issues.

First, there were the normal fitment issues many of us have to go through (though I did NOT have any such issues installing the 15A unit on my Raleigh Replica, the Legran). But thankfully, ALL the mods were able to be accommodated on the removable part of rather complicated shape that provides an anchor to the chain-stays near the kickstand mount - and a TINY bit of trimming to the bottom of the kickstand itself. All this was accomplished with a grinding wheel mounted to an "angle grinder".

Once I got all those issues sorted, and mounted the battery to the frame (actually, to my new, custom-made rear rack since mounting to the seat tube interfered a bit much with the step-through feature which was the whole point of the exercise!), I then powered up the new unit for the first time and was unable to get it to go into setup mode?! :roll:

It also makes considerable noise in either direction when not powered on at all - "considerable" here is in comparison with the 15a unit which is absolutely silent, and yes, I double checked!

This morning I'll be refreshing my memory on how to get it to go into setup mode!

BTW, the build thread on my new San Rafael:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=89956

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 25 2017 11:59am

extrasilver wrote:so guys.. small update on the 36v 350w system with an attempt to upgrade it to the 48v 18a version

the upgraded controller arrived today but i spotted an issue right away.. the cable going from the controller to the display is thicker than the one on my 36v 16amp controller and contains an extra 2 wires

my VLC5 & xh18 displays use a small 6 pin connector same type that is uses for the speed sensor but the 48v throttle happy model uses an 8 pin. maybe this is why some people can't get a throttle to work with certain versions.

picture links below
[links omitted here]
Hi extrasilver,

Yes, you need a whole new loom!

BTW, your links "work" but don't: the images are too big to get any good viewing of. ... You can also use the "Img" button and put image links straight into the textual reply so we don't have to go to links but see them straight away... In any event, here, I'll help; here's the bigger connector:
TSDZ2_18A_main_loom_connector_2_2.jpg
TSDZ2_18A_main_loom_connector_2_2.jpg (171.31 KiB) Viewed 2387 times
And possibly yes, I suspect that IS why some can't use the throttle...

Djoze   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Djoze » Aug 25 2017 12:51pm

RTIII wrote:It also makes considerable noise in either direction when not powered on at all
I have zero experience on previous versions, but on my 48V 750W, when I first made a rotation by hand, motor turned off, I also heard a friction noise. It seems to be coming from a thin plastic disk inserted between the 130BCD ring and the motor. This thin disk moves freely and "sounds" if I rotate it alone with my hand. I have not tried yet to remove it but in my case, it should solve the problem.

Maybe the previous series did not have this disk?

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 25 2017 1:03pm

So again I'm asking for advice as to the best place to buy this drive kit. Who sells these and offers good service in English after the sale?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mlongpine » Aug 25 2017 1:44pm

Waynemarlow wrote:Has anyone yet received one the latest 18A versions and can they confirm it will run on a 14S battery ( 52V ) set up.

The question is being asked because I ride with a BBS02 750W bike equipped partner and the two are noticeably different in power outputs, to the point I have my 500W on turbo most of the ride. The lower power though is great when riding with non electric bikes where on level 2 its just about spot on.

Thanks.
I would also like to know, since we already own 14S batteries. extrasilver or RTIII have either of you tested the newest batch of controllers on 14S?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 25 2017 4:11pm

Fitment finally complete. My Y cable seems to not have power to the light leads but I need to test further. In the meantime the supplied speed sensor os fine. BUT THE SETUP! I feel incredibly dumb. I follow the procedure to the "special" setup and the options popup on startup and it quickly goes to the main screen.
SO nothing has been changed. It reads like there is a speed maximum to change? As it now runs on the rack the top speed is 29-30KPH with the 48V 15A. Is that all there is? 18MPH? What am I missing to get into the setup? Also once on and running none of the buttons on the display OR the remote shut the system down. I have to set down the battery.

HELP. Sorry but so far every Bafang display, I have or have had them all are easier to understand.

Thanks,

frustrated geezer in MN
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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