New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 25 2017 4:18pm

squee22 wrote:
tomjasz wrote:What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
Top speed is going to depend on your drivetrain, gear ratios, rolling resistance, tire size, weight, and muscles.....

I can get the 350W unit up to 40kph if I pedal hard. I run a 20inch wheel folding bike with a shinamo nexus 7 rear hub, and 60T to 16T gearing.
Since 32kph is the legal limit in my region for an e-bike, and for my insurance, I usually speed limit and hit the limit in 6th gear.

I weigh 175lb and usually ride with about 30 lbs of extra cargo, in which case I max out at about 35kph
Rear tire is a knobby offroad tire with additional rolling resistance. Front tire is a slicker street tire.
Thanks! I took a BBS01 off the bike I installed the TSDZ2 48V 15A on. The BBS01 ran at 20-22 MPH with a 44TX11T. Top speed on the rack seems to be 30KPH (18MPH) BUT I'm struggling with the setup. I'll slap a CA3 and speed sensor on for a better speedo reading. I sure can't sell something I can't support, and I'm having struggles I've never had with BBSxx displays....
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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TSDZ observations

Post by tomjasz » Aug 25 2017 7:20pm

Not to add any negatives, but after getting the sample running I've come to several conclusions. 1. Not a motor I can sell. 2. I like the build quality. I think in many ways superior to Bafang in simplicity. With some work it could be a serous contender. 3. A 18 MPH mid drive won't be very popular in the USA. 4. It feels weird riding. The display doesn't show the surges I feel riding. Very slight but definitely a in and out of power feeling.. 4. torque sensing doesn't at all feel like the torque sensing bottom brackets that ebikes.ca and others sell. 5. Display instructions are abysmal. 6. Display has some oddities. Sometimes the power off button works, but most of the time it does not. 7. It does not automatically power down. 8. pricing is attractive but my BBS01's are better riding and feeling, as well as faster with 36V 15A. Making batteries less expensive too. Sadly a simple clutch change is an afternoon project. 8. making the lock ring a non standard and requiring their tool when a Shimano BB tool would have been just as easy seems a poorly thought out design.

IF I had never had a BBS01, 02, or HD I'd maybe have been happy. But I have. IMO a MAC hub remains a far better option. FOR ME.

SO...as soon as I can sort what kind of price Tongsheng would like recover, it's up for sale with original controller, which had no brakes or throttle option, and new a controller installed with throttle and brakes integrated. With the above anomalies and just a few kilometers of riding.

I will have no other comments or negatives. Disappointed. I was hopeful.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ observations

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 25 2017 7:35pm

tomjasz wrote:Not to add any negatives, but after getting the sample running I've come to several conclusions. 1. Not a motor I can sell. 2. I like the build quality. I think in many ways superior to Bafang in simplicity. With some work it could be a serous contender. 3. A 18 MPH mid drive won't be very popular in the USA. 4. It feels weird riding. The display doesn't show the surges I feel riding. Very slight but definitely a in and out of power feeling.. 4. torque sensing doesn't at all feel like the torque sensing bottom brackets that ebikes.ca and others sell. 5. Display instructions are abysmal. 6. Display has some oddities. Sometimes the power off button works, but most of the time it does not. 7. It does not automatically power down. 8. pricing is attractive but my BBS01's are better riding and feeling, as well as faster with 36V 15A. Making batteries less expensive too. Sadly a simple clutch change is an afternoon project. 8. making the lock ring a non standard and requiring their tool when a Shimano BB tool would have been just as easy seems a poorly thought out design.

IF I had never had a BBS01, 02, or HD I'd maybe have been happy. But I have. IMO a MAC hub remains a far better option. FOR ME.

SO...as soon as I can sort what kind of price Tongsheng would like recover, it's up for sale with original controller, which had no brakes or throttle option, and new a controller installed with throttle and brakes integrated. With the above anomalies and just a few kilometers of riding.

I will have no other comments or negatives. Disappointed. I was hopeful.
Ah man, sorry it didn't work out. I love these little things.... I know you said it yourself about the setup, but sounds like some issues were holding back the power...

Hitting the power and info for a few seconds together didn't get to the setup? Then you can change speed limit, and wheel size...

I'll admit, I have a few other issues come up, but worst comes to worst its a delay until it gets sorted... which happens with anything. Especially with new changes for the better, sometimes old hiccups come back up...

I might try to stick around and do what you guys did with the BBS... DONT GIVE UP ON ME NOW =P

ahhh just givin ya a hard time... I feel ya

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 25 2017 8:02pm

tomjasz wrote:I follow the procedure to the "special" setup and the options popup on startup and it quickly goes to the main screen.
If it's an 18A unit, I haven't been able to get mine into setup mode, but only tried last night for the first time and am too busy to deal with it today.
tomjasz wrote:SO nothing has been changed.
... Reading ahead your other complaint; there's a 25KPH speed limit that you have to turn off - sound like that's your problem.
tomjasz wrote:... 48V 15A. Is that all there is? 18MPH? What am I missing to get into the setup? Also once on and running none of the buttons on the display OR the remote shut the system down. I have to set down the battery.
Both my 15A and 18A shutdown just fine - sounds like you may have a connection problem somewhere.

In any event, I've had my 52T X 11T up over 25 MPH many many times, leave my pedal-only friends in the proverbial dust! 8)

Beware that you're also not turning the unit on with ANY torque on the pedals as it initializes / calibrates on EVERY startup and if there's any torque on the pedal, it counts THAT as zero! :shock:
tomjasz wrote:HELP. Sorry but so far every Bafang display, I have or have had them all are easier to understand.

Thanks,

frustrated geezer in MN
The VLCD-5 is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. I think you may have a wiring problem or some such.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 25 2017 8:23pm

On a side note, to clear any confusion, here is the current state of controllers, and how it works.

6 pin - VLDC-5, OR XH-18 - no throttle and brake

8 pin - VLDC-5, OR XH-18 - throttle (AND brake on VLDC-5, still no brake for xh-18, or it gets crossed)

TS is being shy with 8 pin displays outside of a motor kit, but they are obtainable... give it a little time

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 26 2017 12:20am

That's a real bummer that the TS didn't work for you tomjasz. I'm loving mine so far and just completed my first commute to work with it. The display programming does leave something to be desired but once you learn which buttons to push and for how long, changing settings is pretty easy. I agree with RTIII, you need to unlock the speed limit. Here are the numbers from my commute home.
IMG_8940.jpg
IMG_8940.jpg (52.06 KiB) Viewed 3232 times

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Re: TSDZ observations

Post by squee22 » Aug 26 2017 2:34am

tomjasz wrote:Not to add any negatives, but after getting the sample running I've come to several conclusions. 1. Not a motor I can sell. 2. I like the build quality. I think in many ways superior to Bafang in simplicity. With some work it could be a serous contender. 3. A 18 MPH mid drive won't be very popular in the USA. 4. It feels weird riding. The display doesn't show the surges I feel riding. Very slight but definitely a in and out of power feeling.. 4. torque sensing doesn't at all feel like the torque sensing bottom brackets that ebikes.ca and others sell. 5. Display instructions are abysmal. 6. Display has some oddities. Sometimes the power off button works, but most of the time it does not. 7. It does not automatically power down. 8. pricing is attractive but my BBS01's are better riding and feeling, as well as faster with 36V 15A. Making batteries less expensive too. Sadly a simple clutch change is an afternoon project. 8. making the lock ring a non standard and requiring their tool when a Shimano BB tool would have been just as easy seems a poorly thought out design.

IF I had never had a BBS01, 02, or HD I'd maybe have been happy. But I have. IMO a MAC hub remains a far better option. FOR ME.

SO...as soon as I can sort what kind of price Tongsheng would like recover, it's up for sale with original controller, which had no brakes or throttle option, and new a controller installed with throttle and brakes integrated. With the above anomalies and just a few kilometers of riding.

I will have no other comments or negatives. Disappointed. I was hopeful.
my 0.02

1 your call. it took some tweaking with gearing for me to get it where I wanted it, so it's not simply plug and play
3 how are you limited to 18mph? mine easily reaches 20mph (32kph) and above with the right gearing (requires aggressive gearing)
4 I only get those surges when my peddling is bringing me above and below the speed limit - which can be adjusted in the menu (hold power and odometer buttons down at the same time)
6 My display is the small one (xh18 I think) and holding down power shuts it off. A tap of power turns the light switch on the controller on and off (does nothing unless you do some rewiring to a relay and an accessory).
7 mine will power itself off if left unattended
8 How would a bafang battery be less expensive? tsdz2 also comes in 36 volt model but has longer battery life due to torque pedal assist demanding a physical input from the rider. The motor only does half the work = battery lasts longer. which means you could downsize the battery. I ride with a 14.5 AH 26 volt battery on a 20 inch wheel bike and it lasts me three commutes before I need to recharge - or about 60km
9 IDK what you mean by the lock ring. If you mean the spanner nut, they include the wrench in the box, and I have wrenches in the garage that fit it.... it's not anything special.

10: summary: I'd modify the gearing on your bike to be much more aggressive. Add ten teeth to your front chaining, learn how to get into the display menu and confirm your speed limit is set correctly, and try again. since this is throttled by torque, the nature of the mechanics of your bike's drive train must be altered to ensure you can apply torque at the speeds you wish to ride. That means you can't ghost pedal and expect the motor to do anything. You need to be able to push hard with your feet even at high speeds.

P.S. also check that the magnet and magnet sensor are properly aligned and barely not touching. If the controller doesn't get feedback from this sensor the bike will start acting weird.
Last edited by squee22 on Aug 26 2017 6:04pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mingonn » Aug 26 2017 6:15am

Oh oh, stripped my blue gear today. Was able to ride home but sounded terrible, about to email the supplier for a replacement, will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:

Hopefully it hasn't wrecked the main gear....
20" folder with an ebay 200w 36v Direct Drive front hub, 48V 4ah Ping V2, (200w - 5.8 amp max controller limited)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 26 2017 6:41am

mingonn wrote: will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:
Ask who? Where do I buy this drive?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mingonn » Aug 26 2017 7:13am

sendler2112 wrote:
mingonn wrote: will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:
Ask who? Where do I buy this drive?
We got our units from this supplier, they stock the metal replacement gear as well as the plastic. Hopefully mine will be covered under warranty.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... G6X8.3RWAG
20" folder with an ebay 200w 36v Direct Drive front hub, 48V 4ah Ping V2, (200w - 5.8 amp max controller limited)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 26 2017 8:02am

So the TSDZ3 looks like it doesn't hang down and would be much better for a trail bike. I don't find any threads on that motor. Anyone ever try this? They don't sell the special bracket?
.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... 2H3X.3SVEX
.

.

RTIII   1 kW

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Re: TSDZ observations

Post by RTIII » Aug 26 2017 10:06am

Thank you, squee, for this reply to Tom:
squee22 wrote: my 0.02

1 your call. it took some tweaking with gearing for me to get it where I wanted it, so it's not simply plug and play
3 how are you limited to 18mph? mine easily reaches 20mph (32kph) and above with the right gearing (requires aggressive gearing)
4 I only get those surges when my peddling is bringing me above and below the speed limit - which can be adjusted in the menu (hold power and odometer buttons down at the same time)
6 My display is the small one (xh18 I think) and holding down power shuts it off. A tap of power turns the light switch on the controller on and off (does nothing unless you do some rewiring to a relay and an accessory).
7 mine will power itself off if left unattended
8 How would a bafang battery be less expensive? tsdz2 also comes in 36 volt model but has longer battery life due to torque pedal assist demanding a physical input from the rider. The motor only does half the work = battery lasts longer. which means you could downsize the battery. I ride with a 14.5 AH 26 volt battery on a 20 inch wheel bike and it lasts me three commutes before I need to recharge - or about 60km
9 IDK what you mean by the lock ring. If you mean the spanner nut, they include the wrench in the box, and I have wrenches in the garage that fit it.... it's not anything special.

10: summary: I'd modify the gearing on your bike to be much more aggressive. Add ten teeth to your front chaining, learn how to get into the display menu and confirm your speed limit is set correctly, and try again. since this is throttled by torque, the nature of the mechanics of your bike's drive train must be altered to ensure you can apply torque at the speeds you wish to ride. That means you can't ghost pedal and expect the motor to do anything. You need to be able to push hard with your feet even at high speeds.
That last bit is VITAL, and I've been shouting it from the rooftops here in this thread: the unit has around a 90 Pedal RPM limit (which is probably equal to 4000 RPM at the motor, its limit), so you MUST gear the bike such that YOU are able to apply force at just below that point or else the motor's not going to give you much... And which means you MUST set it up for taller gearing than you might otherwise be used to!

I think Tom's just frustrated. He reached out to me with a PM but I've been very busy with customer work, and was too exhausted last night... We're entering my businesses dead-time - from late summer to January - and I don't have enough $$ on hand to make it to January, so I REALLY need this business and have only a few minutes here and there at the moment; make hay while the sun shines! :) ...I'd better reply to Tom now! :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 26 2017 10:12am

mingonn wrote:
sendler2112 wrote:
mingonn wrote: will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:
Ask who? Where do I buy this drive?
We got our units from this supplier, they stock the metal replacement gear as well as the plastic. Hopefully mine will be covered under warranty.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... G6X8.3RWAG

UH, THEY STOLE MY PICTURES FROM EBAY

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222582211641

hahaha I am equally amused and annoyed.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 26 2017 10:18am

mingonn wrote:Oh oh, stripped my blue gear today. Was able to ride home but sounded terrible, about to email the supplier for a replacement, will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:

Hopefully it hasn't wrecked the main gear....
Just so we can learn a little more:

...Have you been starting off under electric power or unassisted?

Do you use high power assist levels when going slowly?

Are you in low gears a lot (high pedal speeds), or do you rely on the motor to pull you out of slow / sluggish situations?

Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 26 2017 11:10am

mingonn wrote:
sendler2112 wrote:
mingonn wrote: will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:
Ask who? Where do I buy this drive?
We got our units from this supplier, they stock the metal replacement gear as well as the plastic. Hopefully mine will be covered under warranty.

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... G6X8.3RWAG
I am currently waiting for delivery of my replacement blue gear & have my motor apart. Any questions & I'll be happy to help if I can. I am also interested in your feedback & running technique to try & determine what might be contributing to these early gear failures. Is it operator error, poor quality materials or poor design? My applications are also usually on small wheels (20 inch) with a 42 tooth chainring. This is too fast a cadence with this combination and I also recommend going to at least a 52 tooth or bigger. Does this decrease or increase the risk of the Blue Gear failing?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 26 2017 12:06pm

With every other mid drive going to the 52T increased the likely hood of frying. IF and that's a BIG IF the rider runs through the gears, downshifts when coming to a stop and doesn't ride the bike like a twist and go scooter the plastic gears can last. At least that's the case on BBS01 and 02's.
BUT when I had a watt meter installed and saw the pull on power with a 52T it was no wonder they got hot and stripped out. Motors have design parameters. Until the BBSHD I don't think there has been any mid drive that allowed for "hot rodding" or running much beyond stock setup. I guess I have a hard time understanding buying a 20MPH drive and expecting it to be faster. Something is going to give.

Do you ride buy running through the gears just as you would without a motor?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 26 2017 12:09pm

Maybe I'll go basement diving and resurrect the POS YOCH. May as well have some fun and fry it before pitching it...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 26 2017 4:08pm

sendler2112 wrote:So the TSDZ3 looks like it doesn't hang down and would be much better for a trail bike. I don't find any threads on that motor. Anyone ever try this? They don't sell the special bracket?
.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... 2H3X.3SVEX
.

.
Recycles answered my question. The TSDZ3 fits more like a Bosch in that it requires a custom frame with it's mounting point replacing the bottom bracket area of the frame.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 26 2017 6:02pm

sendler2112 wrote:So the TSDZ3 looks like it doesn't hang down and would be much better for a trail bike. I don't find any threads on that motor. Anyone ever try this? They don't sell the special bracket?
.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... 2H3X.3SVEX
.

.
This is for a custom frame for mass manufacturing electric bikes. It's not for retrofitting pedal bikes, and will not work on a standard bicycle frame, without some serious metal work.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 27 2017 1:29am

For Tom and any others with this kind of issue:

I can now confirm that my new 18A unit does not / will not (perhaps can not) go into setup mode.

There are three reasons I need to go into setup mode:

1) to set the tire / wheel diameter, and;

2) to turn off the stupid speed limit, and;

3) to tell it to use imperial units instead of metric.

I moved the VLCD-5 from the 15A to the 18A system and it still "seems to work" but IT ALSO refuses to go into setup mode, either, which means it's NOT a problem with the "display" (the VLCD-5). Tomorrow AM I plan on testing the reverse: will the VLCD-5 from the 18A unit go into setup mode when plugged into the 15A system? My guess is that it will. I'm supposing that the issue is the actual controller that's housed inside the motor housing...

I've contacted my vendor and expect we'll get this resolved.

IF the VLCD-5 can go into setup mode on the 15A system, AND if I can then make these changes there and then move the unit back to the 18A system and have the 18A system honor those changes, I will then have a workaround.... Hope to report on this tomorrow.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mingonn » Aug 27 2017 2:26am

RTIII wrote:
mingonn wrote:Oh oh, stripped my blue gear today. Was able to ride home but sounded terrible, about to email the supplier for a replacement, will be asking for the metal gear I think, only 700 km on the unit :cry:

Hopefully it hasn't wrecked the main gear....
Just so we can learn a little more:

...Have you been starting off under electric power or unassisted?

Do you use high power assist levels when going slowly?

Are you in low gears a lot (high pedal speeds), or do you rely on the motor to pull you out of slow / sluggish situations?

Thanks.
Pretty much always in Level 4 assist on road, on dirt tracks it rarely goes above 3. Been riding normal bikes for decades so always shift down out of habbit before I stop so i'm in an easier gear when starting off (guessing 14-15T on the rear sprocket) and only running a 34T front ring. Wen't with a low gearing because I wanted to keep the load light on the system and I was only after a top speed of around 30 km/h. Its on a 26" wheeled mtb and I'm a light weight too @ 70kg. It went when I started peddling up a steep little sealed hill, nothing I hadn't done before with it. It was clicking a bit the week before but then went back to normal so I am guessing it was a gradual weakening.

They really should program in a softer start to protect the gear unless its something else going on causing the issues like heat softening the plastic or incompatible lubricant. Mine is the 350W model, great little unit up until now. Hopefully the metal gear will do the job.
20" folder with an ebay 200w 36v Direct Drive front hub, 48V 4ah Ping V2, (200w - 5.8 amp max controller limited)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 27 2017 3:41am

Daytriker wrote:I don't know for sure as I have limited experience with this motor but what you are describing sounds more like a Bottom Bracket noise rather than from the motor.
Many thanks. When I read this enough alarm bells were ringing to be heard over your way! When first fitted I thought the bb to be far too slack a fit and the retaining side bracket difficult to get a proper fit. So having measured the bottom bracket clearance, 0.7mm on diameter, I shimmed the shaft diameter by 0.5 (20 thou) mm and did a proper job on the fit of retaining bracket. The whole fit of the motor was transformed; it was now a tight good fit.

With high expectation I gave it a run. Bugger. However, on the plus side, the motor which I thought quieter than the Motus and very much quieter than the Neo, was now even quieter if it wasn't for the squeak. I'm tempted to put up with it but instinct tells me these things never end well so I'm at a bit of a loss.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 27 2017 4:31am

RTIII wrote:For Tom and any others with this kind of issue:

I can now confirm that my new 18A unit does not / will not (perhaps can not) go into setup mode
I hope you get this sorted. Can I just say that your excel spreadsheet of crank speed, gears etc was really useful. Thank you for making the effort.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 27 2017 4:45am

mingonn wrote:They really should program in a softer start to protect the gear unless its something else going on causing the issues like heat softening the plastic or incompatible lubricant. Mine is the 350W model, great little unit up until now. Hopefully the metal gear will do the job.
The Motus has this which might explain how bland I find the bike. The Neo Cross does not but the rear spokes don't last long with this sort of treatment.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 27 2017 11:04am

James Broadhurst wrote:
RTIII wrote:For Tom and any others with this kind of issue:

I can now confirm that my new 18A unit does not / will not (perhaps can not) go into setup mode
I hope you get this sorted. Can I just say that your excel spreadsheet of crank speed, gears etc was really useful. Thank you for making the effort.
You're welcome, James.

The youngest of the versions at the science tools site has accommodation for up to 11 rear gears. :D

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