New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 27 2017 11:08am

James Broadhurst wrote:[...]The whole fit of the motor was transformed; it was now a tight good fit.

With high expectation I gave it a run. Bugger. However, on the plus side, the motor which I thought quieter than the Motus and very much quieter than the Neo, was now even quieter if it wasn't for the squeak. I'm tempted to put up with it but instinct tells me these things never end well so I'm at a bit of a loss.
My bet is you can cure the squeak with a little talk talc powder or some such! :) It's rubbing somewhere...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 27 2017 11:29am

mingonn wrote:Pretty much always in Level 4 assist on road, on dirt tracks it rarely goes above 3.
I always ratchet it up from zero or one when taking off, every time, and never leave it on a high assist level like that, especially when going slower than about 10 mph.
mingonn wrote:It went when I started peddling up a steep little sealed hill, nothing I hadn't done before with it. It was clicking a bit the week before but then went back to normal so I am guessing it was a gradual weakening.
I'm curious about the clicking... ...As for the hill, how fast were you going when you started the hill? I try and keep it up over 7 mph, even on the steepest hill... Yes, gearing matters, but I'd be in a low gear too.

As an overall comment, it's the overall gearing that matters; for any given identical ratio implemented with different numbers of teeth, front to rear, the only difference between the two implementations is the loading per tooth, front v rear, and not the mechanical advantage, which is defined by the overall ratio. This is where that chart I created can come in handy because it includes telling you the ratios for any given front / rear gear pair! 8)

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tomjasz   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 27 2017 1:52pm

Edited for review. Hoping for a solution.
Last edited by tomjasz on Aug 27 2017 9:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 27 2017 2:05pm

Daytriker wrote:I don't know for sure as I have limited experience with this motor but what you are describing sounds more like a Bottom Bracket noise rather than from the motor.
After yesterday's disappointment I went for a 20 mile run today. I first tightened by an eighth turn the attachment 8mm bolt and checked all the others. Anyway, back home I promptly fell asleep with a contented smile. The grandchildren kept asking grandma' what's up with the (usually grumpy) old git?

Well, daytriker you were absolutely correct. A lovely run without a single squeak. Fixed.

As to why it's taken 24 hours to settle in, I don't know. Not being a believer in luck, there's no doubt in my mind that it's come from the work to correct the fit of the motor. The whole feel of the motor is tighter, taut.

When I first put this in I wasn't too careful; I wasn't convinced this was a well designed piece of engineering. Just get it in. I stand corrected.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 27 2017 6:45pm

I regreased my unit yesterday and made a video showing the full disassembly and reassembly (except torque sensor (don't know how to remove it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVnJ5n7A7g

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 27 2017 7:45pm

Very helpful. Now I understand how the torque of the assembly will keep it tight against the down tube in that alternate type of installation for those that can't mount it under the chain stays as for a dual suspension bike. What size chain ring is that? It also seems to extend larger than the motor. The photos of the kit make the motor look like it protrudes beyond the supplied chain ring to be smashed over every log when trail riding. But your chain ring looks large enough to protect it regardless of the mounting angle.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 27 2017 8:25pm

Thanks for the video squee22 it will come in handy when I do my Blue Gear swap. One thing to ask - removal of the motor assembly from the gear drive was very difficult & tight when I did mine. I ended up having to tap it out with a hammer & punch around the rim of the motor cover. Unfortunately you skipped that part in your video so I am curious, did your motor just lift out by hand?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 27 2017 9:33pm

To get the motor out you need to give it a little rattle. I didn't need to use a hammer though for any of this. When the gears mesh and the motor torques the whole assembly tightens up and you need to rotate it a bit when you pull it out to loosen everything up again.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 27 2017 9:35pm

Daytriker wrote:Thanks for the video squee22 it will come in handy when I do my Blue Gear swap. One thing to ask - removal of the motor assembly from the gear drive was very difficult & tight when I did mine. I ended up having to tap it out with a hammer & punch around the rim of the motor cover. Unfortunately you skipped that part in your video so I am curious, did your motor just lift out by hand?
Tried it, very easy here. So many good features... I'm riding it all week regardless of the setup.

"Nancy" tongsheng tells me I'm just not understanding how to enter setup, yet Richard is saying he has the same issue...
Last edited by tomjasz on Aug 28 2017 12:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 27 2017 9:37pm

The chainring is 60 teeth and can be found on Amazon. Works well for my drive train but may be overkill for larger wheeled bikes. Ya it kinda dominates the scale of everything else. The thing is huge.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mingonn » Aug 27 2017 10:43pm

Got the OK from PswPower to open it up. Mine came apart pretty easily, nothing too complex. Little wiggle and the motor came out easy enough too.

Blue gear stripped a tooth as expected and PswPower have offered a replacement, so far they have been very helpful. I have asked for the metal one which should sort this out, postage is the killer though, not bad if you don't mind waiting but DHL is US$21.

Happy to live with a bit more noise in exchange for robustness and reliability. I expect you can get quite good life out of the plastic gear if you baby it but a slightly softer start built in for level 3 and 4 would achieve the same without having to stuff around with power levels and gear shifts. Should be an easy software tweak for the manufacturers.

I think I will splurge on a off the shelf dualie eMtb next year, I tried my mates '17 Specialized Turbo Levo and was blown away with the smoothness of the drive and the handling. The 2018 model sounds even better and there are lots more being released.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 28 2017 11:33am

sendler2112 wrote:What size chain ring is that? It also seems to extend larger than the motor. The photos of the kit make the motor look like it protrudes beyond the supplied chain ring to be smashed over every log when trail riding. But your chain ring looks large enough to protect it regardless of the mounting angle.
The motor housing's lower circumference just about exactly matches the distance from bottom-bracket center to the edge of a 52T, by the way. Also, there's a firm in Italy who makes a protective cover for the motor assembly for those of you who like to ride your bottom bracket along logs and other debris.

Further, 52T combined with an 11 in back gets you about as fast a ride as you could want on a bicycle...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 28 2017 12:24pm

A 29er would need a dual 32/ 44 and 13-34 for trail riding.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 28 2017 2:05pm

sendler2112 wrote:A 29er would need a dual 32/ 44 and 13-34 for trail riding.
Electrification tends to reduce the number of lower gears "required" - though smart pedalers plan for riding unassisted, of course.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 28 2017 2:30pm

32/ 44 did get rid of the 22 granny gear. It is very hilly, muddy, rooty here.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 28 2017 8:01pm

Yes, I am now officially the world's fastest bicyclist! Really! :D I've got proof! :lol:
TSDZ2_179mph_average_1_2.jpg
TSDZ2_179mph_average_1_2.jpg (197.92 KiB) Viewed 2827 times
At Eye's suggestion, today I pulled the speed sensor off my older (first week of June, 2017) 15A system and installed it on the 18A TSDZ2 and it cured the issue - I mean it slowed me down to sub-light speed... Eye thinks it's the firmware version...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 28 2017 8:42pm

Yes, this problem has happened with a couple people, and have had limited success fixing it, so I am not sure if hooking up to the different speed sensor port in the new 'y' connector causes permanent scramble to displays or if it is a combo of the version 3.6 VLDC-5 having problems with the new speed sensors... the Y split has identical connectors with an internal circuit board splitter so they don't appear to be different

update soon when I have confirmation

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by squee22 » Aug 29 2017 1:12am

I've got a theory wrt the blue gear. Do you stand on the pedals when you ride, and when you brake?

If you braked hard, but was standing on the pedals, Applying torque to the pedals, while the bike was still in motion, you might kick the motor in right before locking up the drive train - putting some serious wear on that gear.

Only other thing I can think of is it's overheating from lack of lubrication and getting soft.

thoughts?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 29 2017 2:40am

In my case Squi the customer was riding a Recumbent Trike so hopefully she wasn't applying any pressure to the pedals while she was braking. I know where she lives there are some super steep hills & my guess is she was starting out in too high a gear or power setting but I don't know the cause of the failure for sure. Didn't I see a provision in the menu items for either a walk mode or a delay in the add power that you had to be moving before the power kicked in?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 29 2017 4:50am

squee22 wrote:Only other thing I can think of is it's overheating from lack of lubrication and getting soft.

thoughts?
The thing about these types of gears is that they will survive without lubrication. That is after all their main advantage.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Aug 29 2017 5:09am

Daytriker wrote:Didn't I see a provision in the menu items for either a walk mode or a delay in the add power that you had to be moving before the power kicked in?
You're correct although I don't think it's in the setup menu. It's a small delay of a second or two. The Neo bikes don't have a delay and if you're waiting with your feet on the pedals and off the brakes, you can be moving very fast into the traffic without realising it!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by extrasilver » Aug 29 2017 5:35am

James Broadhurst wrote:
Daytriker wrote:Didn't I see a provision in the menu items for either a walk mode or a delay in the add power that you had to be moving before the power kicked in?
You're correct although I don't think it's in the setup menu. It's a small delay of a second or two. The Neo bikes don't have a delay and if you're waiting with your feet on the pedals and off the brakes, you can be moving very fast into the traffic without realising it!

but even if you apply pressure onto the peddles while you stationary.. the motor wont start until you turn the crank as well as applying pressure
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.” -Jeremy Clarkson
if it has boobies or wheels.. its going to cost you money

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 29 2017 10:00am

Thanks for that Extrasilver. I am waiting for my replacement gear as I did a swap out for the customer so they could keep riding. With the gear failing at only 60 kms. riding it was a little disappointing to experience this when trying a new system. I am hoping it was customer error & once the gear is replaced the system proves reliable.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 29 2017 11:24am

James Broadhurst wrote: The thing about these types of gears is that they will survive without lubrication. That is after all their main advantage.
Yet all the other motor builders with synthetic gears do spec a lubricant and they do require lubrication. Are we thinking TS doesn't?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 29 2017 11:27am

tomjasz wrote:
James Broadhurst wrote: The thing about these types of gears is that they will survive without lubrication. That is after all their main advantage.
Yet all the other motor builders with synthetic gears do spec a lubricant and they do require lubrication. Are we thinking TS doesn't?
Yes, TS does specify lubrication be used and that specification has even been published in this thread, oh, about three weeks ago or so.

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