New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 06 2018 10:49pm

echew wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:10pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:00pm
I am definitely over complicating that, although that is the type of calculations some of these higher end mid drives make, correct?
So, just out of curiosity, what higher end motors could take a bit of thrashing?

I think the TSDZ2 is very good value for money but it's probably not quite what I was looking for in the end.

I really wanted to be able to put the same amount of effort in as I do on my manual bike but I wanted the motor to just make me go even faster. In reality what seems to happen is I can go roughly the same speed as I do on a manual but without having to make any effort.
Not sure what I'd recommend for higher end ebike/middrive, but unfortunately for much more power, you may want to look at non torque sensing mid drives. I have not played with an unrestricted higher end ebike/mid drive much...

So, on the flat, I can go 20mph/32kph sustainable pretty leisurely, but I have to work hard to get to 25-28mph/45kph, which is what the motor cuts off at on the high setting with the display. With a BBS02, I can go 25-28mph pretty leisurely, and If I really push it, I can hit 35mph. BBSHD - I can hit 45mph in the right conditions.

Basic Pedaling (and this is full suspension, mind you) I think I would be lucky to ever hit 20mph for a period of time... so I am happy with any help haha.

But anyway, thats just some numbers concerning other DIY mid drive options... I am not sure about yamaha/bosch/brose/etc... I more tinker with the DIY stuff... but I'm sure someone here could point you in the right direction if that doesn't give you any ideas

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kortina » Jun 06 2018 11:38pm

echew wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:10pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:00pm
I am definitely over complicating that, although that is the type of calculations some of these higher end mid drives make, correct?
So, just out of curiosity, what higher end motors could take a bit of thrashing?

I think the TSDZ2 is very good value for money but it's probably not quite what I was looking for in the end.

I really wanted to be able to put the same amount of effort in as I do on my manual bike but I wanted the motor to just make me go even faster. In reality what seems to happen is I can go roughly the same speed as I do on a manual but without having to make any effort.
My observation is that the TSDZ2 seems to top out at 80 rpm. It feels like when I am pushing higher RPM, I am not generating enough torque for the sensor to decide to keep on pushing.

So select another gear, lower the RPM and push harder... then the TSDZ2 helps more.

If you have run out of gears, then consider a larger 52? tooth chain ring on the front.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 07 2018 12:05am

Well here is another question. I believe some people have said they replaced the 48v motor with a 36v motor and raised the redline cadence to near 120. What if we were to run the 48v engine with 48v motor on a hacked firmware that allowed a fully charged 15s 56v battery to be used (provided that the capacitors, etc could handle it)? Would that not raise the cadence level from 90 to maybe 105 or so? Doesn't the 52v motor run at a higher cadence than the 48v motor which would be the same principle? If so, if we could boost the voltage (perhaps reduce amps a bit to not overheat the motor) then we could raise the cadence for people that prefer an assist at a faster pace.

Uturn   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Uturn » Jun 07 2018 1:32am

alternativley, on a 36V system, you can replace the 36V controller with a 48V controller. Costs a bit less - same result - higher cadence.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jur » Jun 07 2018 2:18am

echew wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:10pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 06 2018 9:00pm
I am definitely over complicating that, although that is the type of calculations some of these higher end mid drives make, correct?
So, just out of curiosity, what higher end motors could take a bit of thrashing?

I think the TSDZ2 is very good value for money but it's probably not quite what I was looking for in the end.

I really wanted to be able to put the same amount of effort in as I do on my manual bike but I wanted the motor to just make me go even faster. In reality what seems to happen is I can go roughly the same speed as I do on a manual but without having to make any effort.
I have found on both my BBS02 and wife's TSDZ2, my average commute speed increases modestly, say 5km/h, but simultaneously, my effort goes down. So in all, my overall commute time is quite similar, but I arrive less sweaty. So I think ebikes aren't saving much time, but saving much effort. If I put in about same effort in pedaling as on my go-fast roadie, I would save some more time, but since drag is a function of speed-squared, the increase in speed isn't huge. But the increase in sweat IS huge.

Even just riding my go-fast bike, I notice a huge difference in effort between riding easy versus riding hard, but just a meagre 10% saving in time, say 5 minutes in a 45 minute commute. Traffic lights spoil the party too.

So my take-away is, the ebike saves effort but not huge chunks of time. Speed increase is hard due to drag quickly beginning to dominate.

casainho   1.21 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 07 2018 2:59am

I put the TSDZ2 motor on an testing ebike and then on a training roller that makes a constant mechanical load on the wheel. I put the load to max possible value and went to measure the efficiency of our flexible OpenSource firmware VS the original firmware:

Code: Select all

Our flexible OpenSource firmware || original firmware
wheel speed  | battery amps    || wheel speed   | battery amps
8 km/h       | 1 amp           || 8.4 km/h      | 1 amp
13.3 km/h    | 2 amp           || 13.3 km/h     | 2 amp
17.2 km/h    | 3 amp           || 16.9 km/h     | 3 amp
20.5 km/h    | 4 amp           || 20.2 km/h     | 4 amp
NOTE: my lab power supply current limit is near the 4 amps. Later I should get a battery and test to at least 15 amps.

As we can see, the efficiency is the same. Also the running noise is the same for both firmwares, almost none.

The firmware source files are on github.

Here the graph of real time data, showing a session similar to that tests I did. You can see phase voltage, phase current, motor speed in ERPs and FOC calculated angle:
Original size

Image

Video:
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jun 07 2018 6:18am

John and Cecil wrote:
Jun 06 2018 6:55pm
Yes, if possible it would be great to reprogram it so that power output is limited at lower cadence levels. Something like 1-10rpm - 2a, 11-20 - 4a, 21-30 - 6a, 31-40 - 8a, 41-50 - 10a, 51-60 - 12 a, 61-70 - 14a, 71-max - 16a. It would make starting out on hills more difficult but it would probably put less strain on the nylon gear.
And maybe some gradient sensors, anemometers with PID control and topographic data from openrouteservice for example which would enable higher power output levels on high rpm only when riding trough hills and headwinds. Then we would need automatic gearbox as well. As we know everyhting of this has been done already.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 07 2018 8:22am

The hill sensor does not matter much to me as I use the throttle for hills. I don't use the assist when climbing hills, even when I am in turbo mode I squeeze the throttle when climbing hills to make sure I am getting 100% power the entire time no matter how hard (or if) I am pedaling. I guess for the people that push hard going up hills it might be more useful, but I tend to like to sit back and let the motor do most (if not all) of the work when climbing and I always climb in 1st gear.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 07 2018 8:34am

Uturn wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:32am
alternativley, on a 36V system, you can replace the 36V controller with a 48V controller. Costs a bit less - same result - higher cadence.
Ahh, that is the answer I was looking for. :) I would rather run at higher voltage though, the motor runs really well at 56v when my battery is fresh. Once it drops down to under 50v power loss is noticeable. I guess my next question would be how many volts can the motor/controller handle if the firmware is hacked to disable the cutoff feature (since others have stated the controllers are the same and just have different firmware settings)? A 15s battery would charge up to 62+ v and would be usable down to say 46v or so. If cadence at 48v is 90 (in theory) then at 62v with a full charged 15s battery cadence should be around 115 . Over time as the battery drops in power cadence would drop as well reaching about 90 when the battery is drained.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by James Broadhurst » Jun 07 2018 9:49am

Is anyone able to tell me the width of the standard 42 teeth chainring, please?

I’ve just completed converting a hardtail mtb with a 9 speed 12-36t rear cassette and I would like to fit a 11 speed 11-46t rear which requires a 1.6mm wide sprocket. I think the TSDZ2 42t might be wider than this but would like to confirm that if possible.

The hills around here (not Oxford) are just too steep. The motor, a 48v 750w 15a, works really well.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » Jun 07 2018 10:07am

James Broadhurst wrote:
Jun 07 2018 9:49am
Is anyone able to tell me the width of the standard 42 teeth chainring, please?

I’ve just completed converting a hardtail mtb with a 9 speed 12-36t rear cassette and I would like to fit a 11 speed 11-46t rear which requires a 1.6mm wide sprocket. I think the TSDZ2 42t might be wider than this but would like to confirm that if possible.

The hills around here (not Oxford) are just too steep. The motor, a 48v 750w 15a, works really well.
Sorry but I do not have a micrometer to measure for you. Hopefully someone else will be able to help. There are ways to accurately machine flat metal surfaces without expensive tools though. I have machined cylinder heads to very high tolerances (motor used a piece of sheet metal as a head gasket and it would not compress at all so the head had to be VERY flat) with valve grinding compound and a flat piece of granite countertop (sink cutout). Spread the valve grinding compound onto the surface and then push the metal object around in figure 8's and it will grind it down flat over time. Also the motor uses a standard 110 bcd chainring so you can mount an aftermarket one that will suit your needs if the stock chainring will not work, however it probably won't have the offset of the stock chainring.

Good luck, the new gearing sounds great! I too would like to upgrade to something with more teeth than my 34, but 40 is about it for an affordable 8 speed cassette and I don't want any more gears (even 8 is too many for me).

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » Jun 07 2018 1:43pm

James Broadhurst wrote:
Jun 07 2018 9:49am
Is anyone able to tell me the width of the standard 42 teeth chainring, please?

I’ve just completed converting a hardtail mtb with a 9 speed 12-36t rear cassette and I would like to fit a 11 speed 11-46t rear which requires a 1.6mm wide sprocket. I think the TSDZ2 42t might be wider than this but would like to confirm that if possible.

The hills around here (not Oxford) are just too steep. The motor, a 48v 750w 15a, works really well.
Stock ring is 2.0mm. 10spd chain does work so you might just go that route? I am assuming that you may already have the shifters for 11 though...

The BCD of the stock rings is 110mm. You may be able to find an 11 spd ring with some offset in 1.5mm width.

Chain line especially using a 46t granny is very important as if it is too jacked your chain will wear really fast. Usually some offset will adjust for this. Also hope you are getting a new derailleur or a Wolf Link as that interface has to be just so also for the jockey wheel to clear the 46t.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by echew » Jun 07 2018 3:39pm

jur wrote:
Jun 07 2018 2:18am
I have found on both my BBS02 and wife's TSDZ2, my average commute speed increases modestly, say 5km/h, but simultaneously, my effort goes down. So in all, my overall commute time is quite similar, but I arrive less sweaty. So I think ebikes aren't saving much time, but saving much effort. If I put in about same effort in pedaling as on my go-fast roadie, I would save some more time, but since drag is a function of speed-squared, the increase in speed isn't huge. But the increase in sweat IS huge.

Even just riding my go-fast bike, I notice a huge difference in effort between riding easy versus riding hard, but just a meagre 10% saving in time, say 5 minutes in a 45 minute commute. Traffic lights spoil the party too.

So my take-away is, the ebike saves effort but not huge chunks of time. Speed increase is hard due to drag quickly beginning to dominate.
I think this nits the nail on the head. This is exactly what I'm experiencing. I guess my worry is that I'm not getting the workout that I was hoping for. But then again if your aim is to not arrive at work sweaty then it's absolutely perfect.

I think I just need to be disciplined and reduce the assist so that I get more of a workout. It definitely is useful to have the Turbo in the backpocket in case I need to dash the 20km across town and back for something though!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 07 2018 3:56pm

echew wrote:
Jun 07 2018 3:39pm
jur wrote:
Jun 07 2018 2:18am
I have found on both my BBS02 and wife's TSDZ2, my average commute speed increases modestly, say 5km/h, but simultaneously, my effort goes down. So in all, my overall commute time is quite similar, but I arrive less sweaty. So I think ebikes aren't saving much time, but saving much effort. If I put in about same effort in pedaling as on my go-fast roadie, I would save some more time, but since drag is a function of speed-squared, the increase in speed isn't huge. But the increase in sweat IS huge.

Even just riding my go-fast bike, I notice a huge difference in effort between riding easy versus riding hard, but just a meagre 10% saving in time, say 5 minutes in a 45 minute commute. Traffic lights spoil the party too.

So my take-away is, the ebike saves effort but not huge chunks of time. Speed increase is hard due to drag quickly beginning to dominate.
I think this nits the nail on the head. This is exactly what I'm experiencing. I guess my worry is that I'm not getting the workout that I was hoping for. But then again if your aim is to not arrive at work sweaty then it's absolutely perfect.

I think I just need to be disciplined and reduce the assist so that I get more of a workout. It definitely is useful to have the Turbo in the backpocket in case I need to dash the 20km across town and back for something though!
Use KT-LCD3 and our advanced firmwares and then you can see the amount of power watts you are doing on the pedals (you can also see the force you are doing, in Nm, as also pedal cadence in RPM). You can even compare with the amount of electric power the motor is using from the battery!!
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kortina » Jun 07 2018 5:34pm

I am having trouble finding a good 6v light to compliment the TSDZ2. (EG: Cheap and good).

I was thinking that I could get some cheap 'Motorcycle' lights from Aliexpress (are links allowed?) EG: Huiermeimi lights are just $12AUD a pair. @1000lm

You can feed anywhere up to 86v to these lights!

So I thought that I could just run the 6v feed from the TSDZ2 wiring loom into a relay... then have the lights run straight from the battery, still retaining the switch on the TSDZ2 dashboard (neat).

If I could find the right sized relay it could even be housed inside the Shark pack, as there is a bit of spare space in the base plate.

Has anyone done this?
Is it a bad idea?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 07 2018 6:25pm

I implemented the current controller for battery current and motor phase current. The battery current should be setup to max value of 18 amps as it is the limit of the controller (well, we can just try a bigger value but who knows what will be damaged? will the controller mosfets burn? the motor phase wires? the metal gears?).

The motor phase current is a protection for mosfets because the motor phase current can be very high like 75 amps at startup and that can burn the mosfets. I setup a max value of 25 amps although because there is a delay on the circuit, it is not guaranteed. This limit will also make motor startup slower...
Also, to reduce the motor phase current, increased the ramp up step value of duty_cycle and this will also protect the motor gears.

The battery current is what gives the motor torque and so this can be limited to any value between 0 and 18 amps. I wish I can implement power limit, like battery voltage * battery current = power. So when battery voltage drops as it discharges, the system will increase battery current to maintain the same amount of power assist.

For each LCD assist level A1, a different max power will be defined. Let's say on level 4, max power will be 400 watts. Rider can pedal at max force on pedals but motor will assist at max value of 400 watts.
Also LCD assist level A2 will setup different torque sensor sensitivity, where level 10 will be the most sensitivity.
So, there will be 2 LCD assist levels: 1. for setup motor max power assist; 2. for setup torque sensor sensitivity

Example of real time data from:
- motor speed in ERPs
- target duty_cyle
- duty_cyle
- battery current (limited to 6 ADC units = 3.75 amps)
- motor phase current (limited to 40 ADC units = 25 amps)

As you can see, put throttle to max and target duty_cyle is 210 however, the duty_cycle never reaches there and stays at 120 because the current controller is limiting the duty_cycle value and so as you can see, the battery current is around the 3.75 amps / 6 ADC units.

Full size image

Image
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Maidaa » Jun 07 2018 8:48pm

kortina wrote:
Jun 07 2018 5:34pm


Has anyone done this?
Is it a bad idea?

That is what I have planned to do, have solid state relay coming (ebay/china).

And, DC-DC Buck Step Down Adjustable Converter 4.5-60V to 3.3V 5V 6V 9V 12V 24V 3A

And, high power red led for the back to be mounted in a red reflector.

Have not decided what I am going to have in the front, just small, powerful and sleek.

Can probably get something from China ready-made for cheaper, but I like to tinker...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by kortina » Jun 07 2018 10:58pm

Could I use one of these for the relay?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Relay-Shiel ... Sw9EZZkaYJ

Using the 6v feed from the TSDZ2 into the 5v ?

Front Lights:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Huierme ... autifyAB=0

Brackets:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LDDCZEN ... autifyAB=0

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Jun 07 2018 11:49pm

casainho wrote:
Jun 07 2018 6:25pm
I implemented the current....
Good work Casainho !!

Have you implemented the max torque/averaging yet ?

When do you think it will be ready for uploading ?
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2018 12:41am

jbalat wrote:
Jun 07 2018 11:49pm
casainho wrote:
Jun 07 2018 6:25pm
I implemented the current....
Good work Casainho !!

Have you implemented the max torque/averaging yet ?

When do you think it will be ready for uploading ?
Thanks fo the feedback.

What you mean by max torque/averaging?

Maybe in 3 weeks I hope to get a testin version...
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by emr » Jun 08 2018 3:14am

kortina wrote:
Jun 07 2018 10:58pm
Could I use one of these for the relay?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Relay-Shiel ... Sw9EZZkaYJ

Using the 6v feed from the TSDZ2 into the 5v ?

Front Lights:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Huierme ... autifyAB=0

Brackets:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LDDCZEN ... autifyAB=0
I bought these (similar to your but 6 LED) and they are very bright but mounting is not great, and they do not have High/low/flash...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Motorcy ... 39268.html

I also bought similar brackets (but only $2.21 each) but found they are difficult to fit to the handlebar (need to be slid on after removing brakes, gear changer etc) and have very little adjustment for different size bars...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Bike-Bicycl ... 2673078457

I have ordered these , the two LED version, (2 of) but have not yet received. Easy mounting via O ring and is 5volt, so should run from the TSDZ2 supplied leads.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12000-Lm-3- ... 1905005016

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2018 3:32am

I created an opportunity to get the attention of my son and then teach him about ebike motor technology -- I always tell him that he needs to keep learning at school because everything around us was develop by other people like him, with strong knowledge about math, and he will develop future technologies for a better world.

The TSDZ2 was running with our OpenSource firmware:

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 08 2018 7:01am

Excellent thread guys,.. Lots of very useful info.
I may have missed a few posts but there are some details i wonder if anyone knows..
1).. What are the mechanical differences between the various motor ratings, 36v 250W, 48v 500W, 48v 750W , etc..
Likewise do i understand the controllers are all the same ? , justwith different firmware ?
Can the voltage settings ( 36-48v). in the controllers be changed via the standard lcd v5 display, or is a programming cable and programing software needed ?
FYI... Iam planningon getting a 48v 750W. Unit, but would like to be able to use 36v (10s) packs at times, so a 30v LVC would be ideal.
Thanks in advance
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2018 7:13am

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 08 2018 7:01am
Excellent thread guys,.. Lots of very useful info.
I may have missed a few posts but there are some details i wonder if anyone knows..
1).. What are the mechanical differences between the various motor ratings, 36v 250W, 48v 500W, 48v 750W , etc..
Likewise do i understand the controllers are all the same ? , justwith different firmware ?
Can the voltage settings ( 36-48v). in the controllers be changed via the standard lcd v5 display, or is a programming cable and programing software needed ?
FYI... Iam planningon getting a 48v 750W. Unit, but would like to be able to use 36v (10s) packs at times, so a 30v LVC would be ideal.
Thanks in advance
Read here: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... nteng_lcd3
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Hillhater » Jun 08 2018 7:30am

OK ..thanks for that.
So all the motors and controllers are the same mecnically ?
But the different LCD display unit etc , is required to alter the firmware ?
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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