New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 09 2018 8:24am

jbalat wrote:
Nov 09 2018 8:10am
Andyme, the OS firmware is more efficient but the standard setup provides a lot more power than the original firmware. That’s why everyone immediately loves it when they try it. The more power you use the quicker your battery will go flat.

1. Use the middle and top buttons to set your power limit to 200w.

2. The faster you go, the more drag. Set the speed limiter to 25km/hr and the drag is minimal. You will find you will be using less than 150w and your battery will last all day !!!
Above 30km/hr the drag really starts to kick in, and at 40km/hr you will be using more than twice the power !!

Try this calculator below and do some tests yourself using different speed and throttle levels.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Hope this helps :)
wow...thank you so much, this is really a useful reply!!!

let me say something though: i have programmed 5 assist levels. So, if i prefer in a given situation level 3 over level 2, it means that i want the higher power at that moment...so what i mean to say: if i limit myself to 200W (did i read from endless cadence that the middle/up button combo power value does not really work?) then i will experience that i am not getting enough assitance, no?

what i mean to say: provided i select my assist levels so that at any given time the assistance is the way i like it, is this not exactly this what i should go for?

So: is your recommendation something like a "power save / eco mode" that assists and lasts long, but may not be satisfactory in all situations?

If you want to reply to that, i would be very happy.

thanks very much anyway already

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Nov 09 2018 8:31am

andyme wrote:
Nov 09 2018 8:24am
let me say something though: i have programmed 5 assist levels. So, if i prefer in a given situation level 3 over level 2, it means that i want the higher power at that moment...so what i mean to say: if i limit myself to 200W (did i read from endless cadence that the middle/up button combo power value does not really work?) then i will experience that i am not getting enough assitance, no?
I hope that soon this week a new firmware version will be released. The assist levels are now very easy to understand, as they are a factor of the power you put on the pedals!! Like if you setup 2.0 factor and you are pedaling at 100W, motor will assist you with 200W (now on LCD3 you can see in real time the power value that your are making on the pedals!!).

And the max power limitation feature (accessed with POWER + UP buttons) do works and very well.
casainho wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:06am
Assist level and start power boost now work as a factor of rider pedal human power

I implemented it and it is so nice to look at LCD3 and see the motor exactly assist you, for instance, 200% of your generated pedal human power, if you did set the assist level to 2.0.

On LCD3 odometer field you can now see:
1. pedal torque (in Nm);
2. pedal energy power (in Watts).

The 1. uses as input the force applied to the pedals (torque sensor signal) and 2. multiplies 1. to pedal cadence. Because of this, the startup power boost assist level scale factor uses 1. and regular assist level scale factor uses 2.

This code is available here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... ke/pull/47
Soon I hope that EndelessCadence can review/test it and make a new firmware release that includes some nice new developments!!
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers and LCD3:
- Unlock and get more power with the TSDZ2 Flexible OpenSource firmware: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki
- Kunteng/BMSBattery VLR FOC motor controller: https://github.com/stancecoke/BMSBatter ... mware/wiki

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 09 2018 8:35am

casainho wrote:
Nov 09 2018 8:31am
andyme wrote:
Nov 09 2018 8:24am
let me say something though: i have programmed 5 assist levels. So, if i prefer in a given situation level 3 over level 2, it means that i want the higher power at that moment...so what i mean to say: if i limit myself to 200W (did i read from endless cadence that the middle/up button combo power value does not really work?) then i will experience that i am not getting enough assitance, no?
I hope that soon this week a new firmware version will be released. The assist levels are now very easy to understand, as they are a factor of the power you put on the pedals!! Like if you setup 2.0 factor and you are pedaling at 100W, motor will assist you with 200W (now on LCD3 you can see in real time the power value that your are making on the pedals!!).

And the max power limitation feature (accessed with POWER + UP buttons) do works and very well.
casainho wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:06am
Assist level and start power boost now work as a factor of rider pedal human power

I implemented it and it is so nice to look at LCD3 and see the motor exactly assist you, for instance, 200% of your generated pedal human power, if you did set the assist level to 2.0.

On LCD3 odometer field you can now see:
1. pedal torque (in Nm);
2. pedal energy power (in Watts).

The 1. uses as input the force applied to the pedals (torque sensor signal) and 2. multiplies 1. to pedal cadence. Because of this, the startup power boost assist level scale factor uses 1. and regular assist level scale factor uses 2.

This code is available here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... ke/pull/47
Soon I hope that EndelessCadence can review/test it and make a new firmware release that includes some nice new developments!!
Yes, i am already very much looking forward to it!

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Nov 09 2018 8:37am

The power limit was fixed in the latest version so give it a try, or just wait for this new version should be soon.

You can still use higher levels of assist which will feel nice at low speeds but the 200w limit will hurt a little when you are going up hills yet extend your range considerably.

I typically run about 300w limit on mine, but I set up my assist level so that at 32km/hr I achieve 220w, so it only gets to 300w going up hills, this is not the most efficient but I find it gives me enough range to get to work and back comfortably and keep up with the other commuters.

If it’s windy then this can easily get to 320w the entire trip and chew up the battery much quicker
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 09 2018 8:43am

jbalat wrote:
Nov 09 2018 8:37am
The power limit was fixed in the latest version so give it a try, or just wait for this new version should be soon.

You can still use higher levels of assist which will feel nice at low speeds but the 200w limit will hurt a little when you are going up hills yet extend your range considerably.

I typically run about 300w limit on mine, but I set up my assist level so that at 32km/hr I achieve 220w, so it only gets to 300w going up hills, this is not the most efficient but I find it gives me enough range to get to work and back comfortably and keep up with the other commuters.

If it’s windy then this can easily get to 320w the entire trip and chew up the battery much quicker
Cool, thanks very much!

Waynemarlow   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Nov 09 2018 1:22pm

Its one of the great anomalies of Ebiking, when you get a bit of power you just want that bit more. But that extra oomph has to come from somewhere and that's the battery.

Certainly from my experience the average speed of a ride tells a lot. My average rises from kph to almost the same in mph if I use a bit of Ebike assistance. Perhaps those complaining that they are using a bit more battery should look at average speeds and that would tell them a lot.

But do take into account that energy and drag is exponential in use, for just a few extra kph average, you will use a lot more power from the battery than at slower speeds.

Ranla   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ranla » Nov 11 2018 10:15am

Hi,
New for this Forum. Did not find answer, so I ask for my kt-lcd3 has green motor Control and then two break Control and one throtle Control. For my old motor has 8 pin connector. For my tsdz2 I have to change the motor end off the cable. I have 8 pin connector on tsdz2. Can I use the breaks and throtle pins on the cable will the program understand brake signal?
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/328328082 ... l&spider=y
Cable looks like that

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 11 2018 9:12pm

Ranla wrote:
Nov 11 2018 10:15am
Hi,
New for this Forum. Did not find answer, so I ask for my kt-lcd3 has green motor Control and then two break Control and one throtle Control. For my old motor has 8 pin connector. For my tsdz2 I have to change the motor end off the cable. I have 8 pin connector on tsdz2. Can I use the breaks and throtle pins on the cable will the program understand brake signal?
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/328328082 ... l&spider=y
Cable looks like that
i would like to help you, but i must admit that i do not understand what you want to know and where your problem is. maybe you can start over and be more precise in describing what you want.
but if someone else understands what you want to know: maybe you can help him, it can be really frustrating at times to be here as a newbie and not to get any reply whatsoever...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ranla » Nov 12 2018 12:45am

In the end. I was little too fast to ask. Motor has a brake sensor. So there should not be any problem to use 4 to 1 cable to connect lcd3 to tsdz2.

Bartman   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Nov 12 2018 12:15pm

DIY EX1 to adjust chainline

I've been using a Sunrace 11-42 10 speed cassette with the standard 42t chainring supplied with the TSDZ2. Chainline in first gear is not great but it works. However, the gearing is still too high for serious MTB use or towing a trailer offroad (I do a lot of wild camping).

So I decided to install a hope 34t front chainring. This move the chainline out by about 7 mm and I was concerned about snapping the chain under load. I made an 8 speed cassette with 10 speed gear spacing using three cassettes I had in my workshop. The sprockets are :-

42, 36, 32 - from my sunrace 10 speed cassete.
28, 22 from a sunrace 8 speed wide range cassette
17, 13, 11 from a shimano slx 10 speed cassette

To move the whole cassett outboard I added spacers between the cassette and the rear of the freehub and used 1 x 10 spacer plus a sprocket carrier from another. This has moved the cassette outboard by approx 10.5 mm.

Gear shifter is a 10 speed XT, rear derailer is a 10 speed XT with Goatlink. I've had to file the arm where the cable connects to the derailure as the chain rubbed this when changing down from 1st to 2nd.

Shifting is great apart from a delay in shifting from the 17t to 13t. I can get it working better by adjusting the B-tension, but then the derailure hits the 42t when going into 1st. I'm presuming it's because I'm using a derailure designed for 36t max, so I'll order an 11 speed derailure which can handle up to 46t (these do work with 10s speed) or a 10-speed one which can handle 42 teeth.

Thought I'd share this as an option for resolving chain line issues.
Attachments
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Last edited by Bartman on Nov 12 2018 4:01pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bartman   10 mW

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New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Nov 12 2018 12:48pm

The bearings in my TSDZ2 are creaking worse than a cheap bottom bracket about to fail. As I use my bike every day, I'm going to buy a spare motor to swap it out and always have a spare at hand. The dilema is do I buy another 36v one, or do I buy a 48v one and 48v battery ? Will I notice a big difference in torque, especially when towing my trailer if I go for the 48v version ?

BTW I'm running v0.12 of the open source firmware.


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gaber   1 W

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Re: New

Post by gaber » Nov 12 2018 2:40pm

Bartman wrote:
Nov 12 2018 12:48pm
The bearings in my TSDZ2 are creaking worse than a cheap bottom bracket about to fail. As I use my bike every day, I'm going to buy a spare motor to swap it out and always have a spare at hand.
Just out of curiosity, how many miles do you have on your motor?
sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

Bartman   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Nov 12 2018 2:53pm

About 300 miles.


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andrea_104kg   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Nov 13 2018 5:30pm

I have 2400km and this it's the noise :-(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzvuxTis0k

ions82   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ions82 » Nov 14 2018 1:34am

andrea_104kg wrote:
Nov 13 2018 5:30pm
I have 2400km and this it's the noise :-(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzvuxTis0k
Yikes! Have you taken it apart to explore? Sounds bad :cry:

Ron Paul's Blimp   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Ron Paul's Blimp » Nov 14 2018 2:31am

Sorry for asking questions I bet you get asked every few page, but I looked at the past few weeks and didn't see answers:

Is there a specific motor version I want? Something newer? I see some sites selling a "tsdz2b." Does that just mean it has the 52v firmware? I'm going to use casainho's firmware anyway. Are they all the same as far as reliability and noise?

I see there's also 8-wire vs. 6-wire. Do I care other than whether or not I want a throttle? Is the 8-wire thicker or does it have thicker connectors?

Is there a good vendor to buy from in the US? Or should I expect to need to wait for a boat from China? If China, is there a recommended vendor?

I'm not really following the options on the firmware github page for making a cable for connecting the display to the motor. What does it mean when it says get a spare controller? Motor controller? How would that help? Won't it have the same connector as the controller that came with my motor? Or does he mean get a spare tsdz2 display? But then why not just use the one that came with the kit?

What's the problem people are describing with crank offset? Is that just if you have a BB bigger than 68mm?

Thanks!

Bartman   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Nov 14 2018 4:26am

Are all the new TSDZ2 motors shipping with 8 wire controller I.e throttle capable ? I tried 3 Uk suppliers and they only have the 8 wire version despite these Kits not having a throttle. My existing setup is using a 6 wire motor and KT-LCD3. I was hoping to do a straight swap out of the a faulty motor without having to do any soldeiing again.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Nov 14 2018 5:21am

Bartman wrote:
Nov 14 2018 4:26am
Are all the new TSDZ2 motors shipping with 8 wire controller I.e throttle capable ? I tried 3 Uk suppliers and they only have the 8 wire version despite these Kits not having a throttle. My existing setup is using a 6 wire motor and KT-LCD3. I was hoping to do a straight swap out of the a faulty motor without having to do any soldeiing again.
Maybe you could email Alice from PSWPOWER and ask mail:2831684296@qq.com
Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 14 2018 2:31am
Sorry for asking questions I bet you get asked every few page, but I looked at the past few weeks and didn't see answers:

Is there a specific motor version I want? Something newer? I see some sites selling a "tsdz2b." Does that just mean it has the 52v firmware? I'm going to use casainho's firmware anyway. Are they all the same as far as reliability and noise?

I see there's also 8-wire vs. 6-wire. Do I care other than whether or not I want a throttle? Is the 8-wire thicker or does it have thicker connectors?

Is there a good vendor to buy from in the US? Or should I expect to need to wait for a boat from China? If China, is there a recommended vendor?

I'm not really following the options on the firmware github page for making a cable for connecting the display to the motor. What does it mean when it says get a spare controller? Motor controller? How would that help? Won't it have the same connector as the controller that came with my motor? Or does he mean get a spare tsdz2 display? But then why not just use the one that came with the kit?

What's the problem people are describing with crank offset? Is that just if you have a BB bigger than 68mm?

Thanks!
1.Looks like TSDZ2B is just one supplier who has flashed the max voltage to 14s.. I have run 14s on my 36v using opensource firmware so no big deal. The 36v motor will run at the same speed as a 48v (because it is wound differently) but if you run it at a higher voltage it can give you more speed but has less torque. If you do a lot of climbing or you are a big guy go for a 48v :)
2. Not sure if 8 wire is much thicker but looks like you might not have a choice. 8 wire supports throttle and brakes but when you install the KTLCD3 you will need to do most of the wiring yourself for the throttle and brakes anyway since there are no connections on the display for this. I hate lots of wires and in my opinion I would not buy one with throttle or brakes since the opensource firmware makes the torque sensor so good you will enjoy pedaling.
3. We have a user eyebyesickle from the U.S. who is associated with https://www.eco-ebike.com/ and can maybe help you with getting the opensource firmware installed ?
4. Unfortunately you wont be able to use your tsdz2 display, you dont need anything else except for a KTLCD3 display, a STlinkv2 clone, and make up some cable connectors. The KTLCD3 wont plug into the TSDZ2. The connectors can be hard to find, you can just cut them off and install your own but there are a few options so don't stress. See wiki here.. https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki
5. The chain ring side of the crank sticks out more than the other side (they call it Q factor) it hasn't bothered me at all but some users have found other cranks that you can use instead, all square taper cranks should fit including bafang. If your BB is bigger than about 74mm then you wont have enough thread to install the retaining bolt for the motor properly, anything smaller is ok.

Hope that helps..
JB
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware viewtopic.php?f=30&t=93818&start=150

andyme   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 14 2018 5:42am

Ron Paul's Blimp wrote:
Nov 14 2018 2:31am
Sorry for asking questions I bet you get asked every few page, but I looked at the past few weeks and didn't see answers:

Is there a specific motor version I want? Something newer? I see some sites selling a "tsdz2b." Does that just mean it has the 52v firmware? I'm going to use casainho's firmware anyway. Are they all the same as far as reliability and noise?

I see there's also 8-wire vs. 6-wire. Do I care other than whether or not I want a throttle? Is the 8-wire thicker or does it have thicker connectors?

Is there a good vendor to buy from in the US? Or should I expect to need to wait for a boat from China? If China, is there a recommended vendor?

I'm not really following the options on the firmware github page for making a cable for connecting the display to the motor. What does it mean when it says get a spare controller? Motor controller? How would that help? Won't it have the same connector as the controller that came with my motor? Or does he mean get a spare tsdz2 display? But then why not just use the one that came with the kit?

What's the problem people are describing with crank offset? Is that just if you have a BB bigger than 68mm?

Thanks!

I will try to answer "from what I know" and if someone sees that i am writing BS, pls. correct me...

You have to decide wether you want 36V or 48/52 Volts. To my understanding, the trend clearly goes in the upper direction. I see people owning 36 V motors who are considering getting a 48 V motor, I have not seen the opposite. If you look a bit higher in this thread you will find a complex discussion about pros and cons of the 2 versions, i was not really able to follow it, for me the bottom line was: there is not really a good reason to go for 36 V. 48 and 52 are the same, hardware wise.

Throttle: it comes with an 8 pin controller, where as the non-throttle version can also have only a 6-pin controller. But they are also selling non-throttle kits with 8 pin controller, but the throttle then is not in the package.

the 8 pin connector is thicker, the wire not really. wether you want a throttle or not is something you have to know yourself...do you want to be able to use your bike without pedalling or not?

the other point with the 8 pin controller: it will allow you to add a temperature sensor instead of the throttle. You do not really have this option with a 6 pin controller. the temperature sensor should prevent your motor from overheating, it would be installed directly on the motor.

There are wiring instructions here for both 8 pin and 6 pin controllers and also so far the latest releases come in throttle/ non throttle versions where throttle version actually is aimed at people with 8 pin connectors AND temperature sensor.

Bottom line: with 8 pin you have 2 options that you do not have with 6 pins, only downside could be the thicker connector in a specific case (inserting the cable into a tube or so....)

The cable issue re. connecting how i see it: you will have to solder no matter what. The cable of the LCD3 will not fit any motor controller. it is different from the displays that come with the motor. So once this is clear, the rest is a matter of perceived options, meaning: if i have connectors i can always exchange things easily if i want to. However these connectors must first being soldered to the cut cable of the LCD3 in order to make the end compatible with the motor controllers cable.

So if you care about being able to simply replace the LCD3 with the old display or a different display, then you can provide it a connector end..this is probably where people say to get a spare controller to use one of the cables from there to get what they need (there are several connectors on a controller, male and female) but yes, you can use the connector from the original display of course or no connector at all:

I personally just cut off the cable from the original display and from the LCD3 too and soldered the 2 open ends together and the job was done. (see pics, it includes also the cable from the brake sensor that i added)
WhatsApp Image 2018-11-13 at 14.10.12(1).jpeg
WhatsApp Image 2018-11-13 at 14.10.12(2).jpeg
WhatsApp Image 2018-11-13 at 14.10.12.jpeg
There is also another cable issue: this is the cable that you need to program the motor...here you need to connect the ST-LINK programmer to the motor, using the connector that goes to the speed sensor. So you unplug the speed sensor from the motor and plug in the ST-LINK instead.

The problem now is to get a cable that has a connector that will fit...this is a 6 pin connector...so you either need a spare speed sensor to use the cable from there, but you can be so unlucky to get a sensor that has only 2 wires in the cable although the connector shows 6 pins....you can also try to get an extension cable for the speed sensor in the same hope and you can also find such a cable if you have a spare 6 pin controller...that is the safest bet to get a cable that really contains 6 wires...the 6 pin controller has both a female and a male 6 pin cable, where as you would be out of luck when getting an 8 pin controller as a "spare cable supplier" because the plug that you need would not be available in 6 pins on that one.

The crank offset is really annoying : the part of the motor where the chain goes on sticks out by an inch or so to the right so that your right pedal will be a good inch more to the right then the left one to the left...so you find yourself with an assymmetry of your feet while pedalling. that has nothing to do with this project here. this is in the nature of this kind of motor.

I understand bafang has a special crank to compensate for this, and this could be used...Maybe there are other options too. I went thru hell and back and adapted my crank...removed almost 1,5" from the right crank and managed to get it fixed to the motor nevertheless....so: this assymmetry calls for a custom crank at least for sensitive people like me... :D :D ( my cranks are longer cranks then standard, so therefore i could not use anything available on the market that compensates for the offset. One thing I am almost sure about: if you have someone who knows how to weld aluminum, you can cut a crank at the end of the lever and re-weld it so that the offset is gone.)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by MallardQ » Nov 14 2018 1:00pm

hi quick question, I have stripped m4 screws :oops: on the motor. Can I use M4 X 14 Cap head instead of original button head? or are they functionally different.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Nov 14 2018 1:17pm

MallardQ wrote:
Nov 14 2018 1:00pm
hi quick question, I have stripped m4 screws :oops: on the motor. Can I use M4 X 14 Cap head instead of original button head? or are they functionally different.
i don't see why this should be a problem.

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gaber   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by gaber » Nov 14 2018 1:28pm

Hey Andy, quick side question. In the photo of your lengthy (and great) response, I noticed you’re utilizing a nice headlight. It looks like the headlight wire goes up to the cockpit, but I don’t see a return wire going down.

How do you have that wired in? Am i just missing the wire going back towards the motor and battery?


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MallardQ   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by MallardQ » Nov 14 2018 1:45pm

i don't see why this should be a problem.
Thanks, now I just have to drill that bugger out.

sidmodi   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sidmodi » Nov 14 2018 1:46pm

Hello,

I have gone through all 150 pages of this post and was not able to find an answer to my question:

How weatherproof is this motor? I live in a city with a lot of rain and it doesn't stop me from riding. Will installing this motor mean that I can only ride when it is not raining?

Thank you!

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Re: New

Post by andyme » Nov 14 2018 1:50pm

gaber wrote:
Nov 14 2018 1:28pm
Hey Andy, quick side question. In the photo of your lengthy (and great) response, I noticed you’re utilizing a nice headlight. It looks like the headlight wire goes up to the cockpit, but I don’t see a return wire going down.

How do you have that wired in? Am i just missing the wire going back towards the motor and battery?


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Hi Gabe,

the cable that goes up is a remote for the light. The light is not a battery light, it is a hub dynamo light. the bike already came with a hub dynamo, so i did not see a reason to remove that...after all, all that is left from the original bike are the frame, the seat post and the 2 wheels....seriously..even the tyres are different ones.

https://www.bumm.de/en/products/dynamo- ... /179u.html?
Last edited by andyme on Nov 14 2018 2:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

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