New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Antenor   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Antenor » Feb 07 2019 7:01pm

Thanks tomtom50 :thumb:

imfrommexico   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by imfrommexico » Feb 07 2019 7:15pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 06 2019 10:55pm

High quality steel frames work. I built mine on a Trek Reynolds 531 touring frame. Taste varies but I think the old lugged frames look and ride great, nicer than most aluminum frames. As for weight ebikes weigh more, but it matters less because the motor is stronger than the rider. How important is a three pound weight difference between a top-rate steel frame and a carbon frame?

From the standpoint of Tongsheng enginneers they had pretty clear design criteria for a marketable system:
1. Wide frame compatibility
2. Reasonable chainline (50mm or less) with a gear drive and torque sensor fitted in

The decision to fit to 68mm and 73mm bottom brackets is fine, those are the most common by far.

The engineers dished the back of the drive side housing to reduce chainline. If they hadn't done that it might fit some carbon frames, but the chainline would be worse for a larger number of installations.

I'm glad they compromised as they did they did. On a typical frame 50mm chainline is about as much as is acceptable before there are significant issues on the inside rear cogs.
It's not totally about the weight ...
aesthetically, there are no more welds on the frame and the shapes are more developed
It's also possible with carbon frame to pass all the cables internally
and with carbon , you have really really more reactivity , i like rigidity bike.
And yes , when you ride , 3 pounds weight is not a lot, but when you have to regularly carry your bike , it matter

But I totally understand the standpoint of Tongheng , of course the current design are more marketable and give more frame compatibilty .

sorry for approximative english speaking

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 08 2019 12:03am

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 07 2019 6:49pm
Question for my fellow TSDZ2 owners... The main motor power wires that come out of the housing seem very small gauge to me, like maybe 16 ga, for 750 max watts and the corresponding amps. I am running 12 ga wire from the battery but not sure of the value in that considering the downstream 16 ga. Are all these motors supplied this way?
This is pretty easy to assess using the internet. There are various voltage drop calculators that will give a good answer. For example
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

If I punch in 16 ga, 18A DC, and one foot the voltage drop is 0.14V, 0.3% of 48V. Power delivered is ((48-0.14)/48)^2 = 0.994, 99.4% of the power is transmitted.

The drop is completely a function of length. 18A though a 25 foot 16ga extension cord would be 3.6V, 7.5% of 48V, and power drops 14.5% ((48-3.6)/48)^2 = 0.855, the delivered power is 85.5% of the power into the cord. Don't use 25 feet of 16 ga to run your TDSZ2!

The fact that part of the length is 16ga doesn't mean using 12ga for some of the length has no benefit. 2 feet of awg 16 drops 0.29V. One foot 16ga plus 1 foot 12 ga drops 0.14V + 0.06V = 0.2V. Better than 2 foot of 16ga? Yes. Enough better to matter? That is up to you.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 08 2019 12:07am

imfrommexico wrote:
Feb 07 2019 7:15pm
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 06 2019 10:55pm

High quality steel frames work. I built mine on a Trek Reynolds 531 touring frame. Taste varies but I think the old lugged frames look and ride great, nicer than most aluminum frames. As for weight ebikes weigh more, but it matters less because the motor is stronger than the rider. How important is a three pound weight difference between a top-rate steel frame and a carbon frame?

From the standpoint of Tongsheng enginneers they had pretty clear design criteria for a marketable system:
1. Wide frame compatibility
2. Reasonable chainline (50mm or less) with a gear drive and torque sensor fitted in

The decision to fit to 68mm and 73mm bottom brackets is fine, those are the most common by far.

The engineers dished the back of the drive side housing to reduce chainline. If they hadn't done that it might fit some carbon frames, but the chainline would be worse for a larger number of installations.

I'm glad they compromised as they did they did. On a typical frame 50mm chainline is about as much as is acceptable before there are significant issues on the inside rear cogs.
It's not totally about the weight ...
aesthetically, there are no more welds on the frame and the shapes are more developed
It's also possible with carbon frame to pass all the cables internally
and with carbon , you have really really more reactivity , i like rigidity bike.
And yes , when you ride , 3 pounds weight is not a lot, but when you have to regularly carry your bike , it matter

But I totally understand the standpoint of Tongheng , of course the current design are more marketable and give more frame compatibilty .

sorry for approximative english speaking
Understood. I have seen carbon frames made for ebike motors, for example
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Winice- ... 9211e988df

It fits a Bafang ebike motor that has a torque sensor.

ri53hu   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ri53hu » Feb 08 2019 2:29am

Please what I have wrong.R:
Attachments
imageresize.jpg
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dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Feb 08 2019 6:30am

Be careful when connecting speed sensor connector on the cable which is coming from the motor. The picture shows that the pins are on the other side and one pin is bent and is not visible. The pins are easily bent.

My question is where can I buy a cable that comes from the engine to the speed sensor and has a connector that connects to the speed sensor connector.


Motorplug1.JPG
Motorplug1.JPG (191.25 KiB) Viewed 1195 times

Strider   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Strider » Feb 08 2019 8:42am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 06 2019 10:48pm
Antenor wrote:
Feb 06 2019 6:57am
Thank you for the explaniont

Do i need some sort of special cable to flash the firmware?

I saw the open source software, but it looks more complicated that i can handle
See
https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch

Shows how to make the cable and connect. And it has firmware files

And the 2nd video
https://www.eco-ebike.com/pages/videos

Tells you how to flash the hex file.

It is easier than doing the open source firmware.
I'm actually also wondering this, it's not that clear what kind of cables you need to buy.
From what I've understood, please correct i'm mistaken:

1. The KT-LCD3 dispay doesn't have a connector that fits the connector on the TSDZ2 engine. So you need to cut the connector from the VLCD5 display and connect it to the cable of the KT-LCD3 display. Are the colors of the wires the same?

2.The KT-LCD3 display needs to connect to the STLINK-V2 cable with this tiny connector: Is this delivered with the STLINK-V2?
Image

Programming the TSDZ2 engine:
3.You need to buy a speed sensor extension cable https://www.aliexpress.com/item/tongshe ... 64583.html this one? Not the speed sensor cable, but the extension cable right? Else you don't have enough wired pins.

This cable you need to cut, and connect it to the STLINK-V2 cable.
With this you are able to connect the TSDZ2 engine with the STLINK-V2 to a laptop.

I think that flashing is quite easy, just follow the steps, but the connecting everything together is a bit more tough to do :mrgreen:



When you are programming the TSDZ2 you are able to set the engine on a specific voltage. Hence, when you want to connect a 52v batter to a TSDZ2 48v engine, you simple have to update parameters as marked below. Is that correct? So when you read a TSDZ2 48v engine, you will see the parameter: 78, update it to 82, and you are able to connect a 52v battery to it? Is it that simple?

Image

raylo32   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 08 2019 8:55am

I am about to get into programming mine, too. I believe this is the cable you need. I just ordered one yesterday, I have everything else. https://www.eco-ebike.com/collections/t ... eed-sensor. I first tried the lighting extension cable that came with the motor but that had only 2 wires, red and black. I spliced that back together for future use.

My issue is that I ordered my motor for 48V but decided to go 52V. I have tested it as set up for 48V with a 52V battery and it seems to work fine. I believe the standard 52V programming is set up for one less amp than the 48V. Not sure about anything else that would matter except perhaps the fuel gage. 48V programming won't show a low battery with a 52V battery in any state of charge. Just shows full all the time.

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 08 2019 12:32pm

I just ordered a 48V 750W TSDZ2 kit.
I want to install it on a 26" 2003 Trek Navigator 400 Nexus 7 speed IGH bike.
It has a 73mm bottom bracket, and I understand the chainline on the Nexus sits in a little more than other "single cog" setups. Someone posted that the Nexus chailnline is 44mm, and the TS is 50.5mm.
What have users here found works for this situation?
I also own a BBSHD 8 speed derailer bike but I want something simpler to ride for guests.
The original gearing was pretty short 38x20. It's 38x16 now. It will be 44x16 when I get the kit.
My legal limts here are 750W and 28mph. But I haven't noticed any enforcement activity as long as you ride at an approprite speed for your situation.

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 08 2019 1:04pm

I adapted an offset Bafang style 42t chain ring to the TSDZ2 spider to improve my chainline.
unnamed-2.jpg
unnamed-2.jpg (62.8 KiB) Viewed 1155 times
It has to be a 42t though to make it over the reduction gear housing and you have to be precise shimming it as too close in will scrub the plastic cover. Made a big difference in chain life as I use the bike primarily as an mtb and spend a good amount of time in the lower part of the gear range.
Last edited by Bigwheel on Feb 11 2019 11:59am, edited 1 time in total.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 08 2019 1:07pm

Strider wrote:
Feb 08 2019 8:42am
I'm actually also wondering this, it's not that clear what kind of cables you need to buy.
From what I've understood, please correct i'm mistaken:
I know where you are coming from with your questions. Information is spread over this thread, which is now at 173 pages! Some is contradictory, some is not incorrect but someone else found a better solution.

I went through the whole drill, first flashing stock firmware (I bought a unit marked 52V but it actually had 48V firmware, apparently there was a batch that left the factory this way), later doing a full conversion to Open Source firmware using a KT-LCD3.

I made a document that covers it all, trying to pull together all the best information and key links. I'll try to clean it up and post it this weekend. It has all steps and I tried for an organized step-by-step structure.

The open source firmware is great if you like a lot of information on your screen and a lot of options for configuration (I love stuff like that).

On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.

Antenor   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Antenor » Feb 08 2019 1:57pm

That would be great :D

The information is too spread over the topic

tomtom50   100 W

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Open Source / Stock Firmware Tutorial

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 08 2019 7:47pm

Antenor wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:57pm
That would be great :D

The information is too spread over the topic
Here is my attempt at a comprehensive tutorial for installing Open-Source firmware with KT-LCD3 and also flashing stock firmware.. Revise as you like. I hope it works for others.
Open Source and Stock Firmware Tutorial.doc
(863 KiB) Downloaded 165 times

Retrorockit   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Feb 08 2019 9:18pm

Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:04pm
I adapted an offset Bafang style 46t chain ring to the TSDZ2 spider to improve my chainline.

unnamed-2.jpg

It has to be a 46t though to make it over the reduction gear housing and you have to be precise shimming it as too close in will scrub the plastic cover. Made a big difference in chain life as I use the bike primarily as an mtb and spend a good amount of time in the lower part of the gear range.
Thanks Bigwheel. I don't have that narrow /wide Bafang gear that you show. Maybe it's the BBS02 part? I saw one guy with a belt drive that looked like the 130mm rings would clear the housing. My kit just shipped today so I don't have anything I can measure yet. With the internal gear hub the chainline won't be changing all the time. But the single speed chains like to run straight I've been told.

Rydon   100 W

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Re: Open Source / Stock Firmware Tutorial

Post by Rydon » Feb 08 2019 11:01pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 7:47pm
Antenor wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:57pm
That would be great :D

The information is too spread over the topic
Here is my attempt at a comprehensive tutorial for installing Open-Source firmware with KT-LCD3 and also flashing stock firmware.. Revise as you like. I hope it works for others.
Open Source and Stock Firmware Tutorial.doc
Nice work Tomtom50! That will help a lot of noobies on the FOS firmware. The wiki could use some of your enhancements like the LCD3 screenshots. Thanks!

raylo32   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by raylo32 » Feb 09 2019 11:24am

Not strictly related to the Tongsheng drive but I made an EGO battery mount and installed it on my bike. It accepts the 56V (really 52V) EGO tool batteries. I have a couple of their 5Ah batteries for an underused EGO battery powered snowblower. These should be good for shorter rides or to carry along as a spare for longer rides.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3415459

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feketehegyi   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Feb 09 2019 11:26am

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:07pm
On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.
Thank you tomtom50 for this. I've actually customized the stock firmware and I also like it as it is.
I've already removed the XH-18 as well and given the following default values to stock firmware:
  • 20" wheel size
  • 45Km/h max speed
  • Assist level 3
So, now I just switch it on with a switch and ride it immediately.
I only use my mobile with bluetooth connection, if I would like to use a different assist level or curious on voltage, watts, etc.

tomtom50   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 09 2019 1:23pm

Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:04pm
I adapted an offset Bafang style 46t chain ring to the TSDZ2 spider to improve my chainline.

unnamed-2.jpg

It has to be a 46t though to make it over the reduction gear housing and you have to be precise shimming it as too close in will scrub the plastic cover. Made a big difference in chain life as I use the bike primarily as an mtb and spend a good amount of time in the lower part of the gear range.
Interesting
Did you need to fabricate a spider or does the chainwheel mount directly to a TSDZ2 spider?
Can you give a link to the chainwheel you used?
What is the chainline you get in the end (stock TSDZ2 is 50mm)

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 09 2019 5:08pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 09 2019 1:23pm
Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:04pm
I adapted an offset Bafang style 46t chain ring to the TSDZ2 spider to improve my chainline.

unnamed-2.jpg

It has to be a 46t though to make it over the reduction gear housing and you have to be precise shimming it as too close in will scrub the plastic cover. Made a big difference in chain life as I use the bike primarily as an mtb and spend a good amount of time in the lower part of the gear range.
Interesting
Did you need to fabricate a spider or does the chainwheel mount directly to a TSDZ2 spider?
Can you give a link to the chainwheel you used?
What is the chainline you get in the end (stock TSDZ2 is 50mm)
The chainring I used does not mount directly to the stock spider. I just cut the tabs that hold the stock ring off then I centered the ring on it and through drilled the stock adapter holes into the chain ring. Can't remember exactly how I held it all centered/still but it wasn't rocket science and I have a little drill press that is handy for stuff like that.

In order to get the tightest tolerance without rubbing I had to source some wide spacers,10mm IIRC, from the hardware store and the only thing they had close were some delrin ones and I also picked up some thin washers at the same time. I got it all together to my liking as close to the casing as possible, although I had to replace one of the cover bolts with a button head as the stock one stuck out too much, blue loctited the M6's and it has been trouble free ever since even with the delrin spacers which I thought were only for short term. I do think that some steel or alu stock would be better and would do more to figure that out if I did it again.
Screen Shot 2019-02-10 at 1.33.11 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-10 at 1.33.11 PM.png (467.16 KiB) Viewed 841 times


I got the ring off the wall at the shop I was working at and it came from an asian supplier the shop uses. However I believe it is a copy of the Lekkie ring as seen here:
Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 11.51.07 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-09 at 11.51.07 AM.png (330.11 KiB) Viewed 993 times
If you are in the states you can pm me and I'll share the shop info with you and I'm sure he can post one out to you.

I can't quantify the exact chainline dimension but I can guarantee that it is as good as it is going to get relative to how far your motor sits off the bb. I did some crushing of my drive side chain stay, steel frames rule, and that got the drive side of the housing right up tight to the bb shell without have to use spacers which also helped.

My cassette is a 46t, and I had to use a Wolf link and new clutch derailleur to get to that. But I have found that in totally stock 52v format I have been able to get up just about anything I have pointed it at in Eco. For any lower gearing I would have to go with a different cassette and may at some point. At this time I am trying to figure out how to get a more integrated system together as the low hanging feature of the TS is a worry for the terrain I like to ride with log rollovers and such so getting the housing past the chainring would be nice.

I also ditched the stock offset crank arms and put some straight Bafang ones on to decrease the Q factor. Another tight fit on the non-drive side so I ground off the offending stock which got into the pedal spindle so that now the pedal and crank arm are one. I didn't find this out until I was riding with a friend that had a Levo and we planned on swapping pedals at some point to swap bikes and when we went to do so we ended up swapping shoes instead and luckily we had close to the same size feet.

Edited as I had the chainring size originally listed as 46t but in fact it is 42t.
Last edited by Bigwheel on Feb 11 2019 12:00pm, edited 3 times in total.

Rydon   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Feb 09 2019 7:37pm

feketehegyi wrote:
Feb 09 2019 11:26am
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:07pm
On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.
Thank you tomtom50 for this. I've actually customized the stock firmware and I also like it as it is.
I've already removed the XH-18 as well and given the following default values to stock firmware:
  • 20" wheel size
  • 45Km/h max speed
  • Assist level 3
So, now I just switch it on with a switch and ride it immediately.
I only use my mobile with bluetooth connection, if I would like to use a different assist level or curious on voltage, watts, etc.
Very cool feketehegyi! Is this hack something you could share? The TSDZ2 lends itself to stealthy rides and I'm sure there are many including myself that would like to do this. Is adding bluetooth required?

Rydon   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Rydon » Feb 09 2019 8:04pm

raylo32 wrote:
Feb 09 2019 11:24am
Not strictly related to the Tongsheng drive but I made an EGO battery mount and installed it on my bike. It accepts the 56V (really 52V) EGO tool batteries. I have a couple of their 5Ah batteries for an underused EGO battery powered snowblower. These should be good for shorter rides or to carry along as a spare for longer rides.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3415459
Thanks Raylo32! Those batteries are great for ebikes and will do fine. I know they use Samsung INR18650-25R cells which are very high power. 20 amps continuous per cell. So the 5AH is 14S2P so 40 amps. The 7.5AH is 14S3p so 60 amps. Take along the 2.5AH for a spare tank and at 14S1P it still puts out 20 amps which is plenty for a TSDZ2. I wouldn't worry about drawing too much power with a TSDZ2. The amps could be BMS limited. Have you measured actual max amps or watts?

Take a day off from yard work and use the same batteries for your tools on your bike! I was curious and googled Ego battery and cobbed the above info from this article. https://community.egopowerplus.com/ego/ ... y-engineer

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feketehegyi   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by feketehegyi » Feb 10 2019 7:55am

Rydon wrote:
Feb 09 2019 7:37pm
feketehegyi wrote:
Feb 09 2019 11:26am
tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:07pm
On the other hand, purely functionally, the stock firmware is quite good. Don't expect the open source firmware to give a radically better riding experience or to dramatically extend battery life.
Thank you tomtom50 for this. I've actually customized the stock firmware and I also like it as it is.
I've already removed the XH-18 as well and given the following default values to stock firmware:
  • 20" wheel size
  • 45Km/h max speed
  • Assist level 3
So, now I just switch it on with a switch and ride it immediately.
I only use my mobile with bluetooth connection, if I would like to use a different assist level or curious on voltage, watts, etc.
Very cool feketehegyi! Is this hack something you could share? The TSDZ2 lends itself to stealthy rides and I'm sure there are many including myself that would like to do this. Is adding bluetooth required?
Hello Rydon, thank you! Yes of course, I share it.
I've created a github page for all necessary details: https://github.com/wptm/tsdz2_maxspeed_ ... ssistlevel
Bluetooth is not required, only a switch to enable motor.

Peetsyo   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Peetsyo » Feb 10 2019 4:05pm

Hi,

Does anyone know how to remove the troque sensor ? ... so I can drill a hole into the housing behind it.
20190210_225032.jpg
20190210_225032.jpg (147.96 KiB) Viewed 850 times

I cannot use the motors torque arm to hold the motor in position , so maybe I can drill holes into the gear housing and fix the motor to frames chainguide mount (ISCG-05). I've got a full suspension frame , that's my only option.

Cheers !

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 10 2019 4:29pm

Peetsyo wrote:
Feb 10 2019 4:05pm
Hi,




I cannot use the motors torque arm to hold the motor in position , so maybe I can drill holes into the gear housing and fix the motor to frames chainguide mount (ISCG-05). I've got a full suspension frame , that's my only option.

Cheers !

No need to even do that. Just let the motor housing rest against your down tube and the rotational force will hold it up against there. You can put a piece of rubber there as a bumper so that the dt won't get damaged if it is an aluminum/carbon frame. Just make sure you use the two tab bb washer to prevent the motor from twisting side to side also.

tomtom50   100 W

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Open Source / Stock Firmware Tutorial v1

Post by tomtom50 » Feb 10 2019 6:06pm

tomtom50 wrote:
Feb 08 2019 7:47pm
Antenor wrote:
Feb 08 2019 1:57pm
That would be great :D

The information is too spread over the topic
Here is my attempt at a comprehensive tutorial for installing Open-Source firmware with KT-LCD3 and also flashing stock firmware.. Revise as you like. I hope it works for others.
Open Source and Stock Firmware Tutorial.doc
Corrected error that 6-pin TSDZ2 doesn't support brake connection
Attachments
Open Source and Stock Firmware Tutorial v1.doc
(874.5 KiB) Downloaded 119 times

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